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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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I'm still baffled that there are people who don't want a Federation-level response. Nothing would undermine the Federation harder than not responding to a terrorist attack on a member world. We can't look at it and say "well we'll just help the Amarki and Orions get along". How does that look to affiliates? To the people of Earth who have been traumatized by nuclear war? To everyday citizens who are united in solidarity while their Council dithers? The optics will cause more problems than are solved. The Federation needs to appear decisively supportive of members, in ways that the members cannot achieve on their own. It's also the best mechanism to address Union concerns.

Plus, one of the options Sousa suggests involves Orion warships over Amarkia? How is that even remotely reasonable? Yes, they're Union ships, but it's a PR disaster that will empower the successionist Amarkian factions. Even the President will recognize the problems. It makes Sousa look like an idiot.
 
What I'd really like is to be clear on @Briefvoice 's position on how the Federation should involve itself.

A lot of people are interpreting his phrasing to suggest that he wants the Amarki and Orions to sort this out with little or no Federation involvement, which seems inadvisable.

I'm not sure how he feels about this.
 
Night said:
One of the things is the Union really didn't have any units, outside the Aerocommandos, that were suited for the kind of fighting on Duaba. And even the Frontier Police aren't meant for what's going on with Duaba. This is a straight military confrontation clearing entrenched positions. The Orions are making it through on vertical envelopment and close air support, but they're blowing up a lot more buildings and losing more people than the Amarki Gendarmes probably would.
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In my omakes at least the Union DOES have such forces, the government has just been reluctant to use them in a law enforcement capacity. Given how it was particularly noted in the update that ground forces were deployed I suspect they are making a special exception for precisely the reasons you mentioned. Aerocommandos are too small in number and not even the ISSU are equipped for this. Time to send in the troops.
 
Simon_Jester said:
What I'd really like is to be clear on @Briefvoice 's position on how the Federation should involve itself.

A lot of people are interpreting his phrasing to suggest that he wants the Amarki and Orions to sort this out with little or no Federation involvement, which seems inadvisable.

I'm not sure how he feels about this.
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To me it sounds more like the Federation trying to get the Amarki and Orions to reach a compromise to solve their problems together, leading to a semi-acceptable solution for both sides. Which sounds reasonable if you don't think the Federation should be deciding everything.
 
[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

At this point I think the Orion Government is more of a hindrance to us than an ally. We need to start working around them, not get dragged down by them. And if that means war, so be it.
 
Random Member said:
To me it sounds more like the Federation trying to get the Amarki and Orions to reach a compromise to solve their problems together, leading to a semi-acceptable solution for both sides. Which sounds reasonable if you don't think the Federation should be deciding everything.
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It abdicates the Federation's responsibility to do everything possible to safeguard her citizens. The solution is and always has been to go after the Syndicate. The diplomatic issue between the Amarki and the Union is a sideshow, a side effect, if the main event - that the Syndicate bombed a Federation capitol.
 
Well yes, that's why I tagged him, because this seems like it's causing you to have a very large concern with his proposal.

It seems rather absurd to outright leave the Federation out of the resolution of this crisis entirely. and pretend it's an all Amarki-Orion show... But precisely because that would be absurd, I'd rather not just assume that's what Briefvoice actually meant.

So I'm inviting him to clarify, rather than simply deciding he holds an extreme version of my idea of what I think he said.

Nervos Belli said:
[] SynchronizedWritingBlock

At this point I think the Orion Government is more of a hindrance to us than an ally. We need to start working around them, not get dragged down by them. And if that means war, so be it.
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If we work around them they collapse AND WE LOSE. Seriously, we will "lose the peace," this will turn into Space Iraq for real, with us ending up never really able to leave Orion space, backing one puppet government after another that lacks any semblance of legitimacy among the Orion people. And we'll be dealing with more and more radicalized, violent, and fanatical anti-Federation terrorist groups as the Syndicate completes its evolution from an organized crime ring into a guerilla movement fighting foreign occupation.

In 2322 or 2332, we'd still be hip deep in this mess, and if you think that the Syndicate we're fighting now is bad, the Syndicate of that time will be worse.

Furthermore, the Orion government is making a good faith effort to assist us, to the point where they're on the brink of collapse because their own citizens are accusing them of selling out to us. It would be shameful of us to 'work around them,' complete their collapse, and then try (and fail) to master the chaos that would result in the aftermath.
 
Simon_Jester said:
What I'd really like is to be clear on @Briefvoice 's position on how the Federation should involve itself.

A lot of people are interpreting his phrasing to suggest that he wants the Amarki and Orions to sort this out with little or no Federation involvement, which seems inadvisable.

I'm not sure how he feels about this.
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I think we are in a very dangerous situation where people could find themselves running out of choices and get locked into decisions with very long term repercussions. My take is, let's get through the next week without an invasion of Orion space or the Orion government falling, and the normal process of politics can decide where to go after that. Not quite Cuban Missile Crisis territory, but maybe start of World War I territory.

But the nice thing is, you don't have to worry about what my position is. You only have to worry about what I wrote.
 
Just to be clear, there DOES need to be a Federation-level response to this attack, not ONLY Amarki/Orion responses. One reason Briefvoice's reply doesn't bother me is because I am very sure the Federation president isn't actually going to decide to "keep the Federation out" of any negotiations that may result from the attack. His core suggestion, that there DO need to be serious negotiations between the two species governments about a matter that is a grave concern to both, is well taken... or it ought to be.

But this is an incredibly bad time for us to start getting confused about whether the Orion Union government is our friend or our enemy. If we start thinking of them as an obstacle, or as the enemy, we have already lost.

These two issues are entirely separate on every possible level.

Briefvoice said:
I think we are in a very dangerous situation where people could find themselves running out of choices and get locked into decisions with very long term repercussions. My take is, let's get through the next week without an invasion of Orion space or the Orion government falling, and the normal process of politics can decide where to go after that. Not quite Cuban Missile Crisis territory, but maybe start of World War I territory.

But the nice thing is, you don't have to worry about what my position is. You only have to worry about what I wrote.
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The problem is that what you wrote is very much not reassuring some people, who think that you're implying the Federation should stay out of the resolution of this crisis entirely. That is... not something people are comfortable with.

I'm not comfortable with it either, I just didn't interpret your words that way.

So, do you want to weigh in on how we interpret what you wrote?
 
Nervos Belli said:
[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

At this point I think the Orion Government is more of a hindrance to us than an ally. We need to start working around them, not get dragged down by them. And if that means war, so be it.
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That sounds like a good way to ruin our reputation with our affiliates. "If we don't like your government, we're just going to ignore them and do whatever we want."
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
It abdicates the Federation's responsibility to do everything possible to safeguard her citizens. The solution is and always has been to go after the Syndicate. The diplomatic issue between the Amarki and the Union is a sideshow, a side effect, if the main event - that the Syndicate bombed a Federation capitol.
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Yes, there are two issues here: what the Federation should do to crush the Syndicate and the diplomatic issue between the Union and the Amarki. The 2nd issue should be left up to the Amarki and the Union to figure out an agreement that will make both sides happy enough. Of course we should help them in coming to an agreement, but we shouldn't force anything upon them, just continue beating away at the Syndicate using new ways. Ways that don't involve Amarki ships in Union space.
 
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Well you're not voting on my interpretation of the Sousa speech I put out there, just what it actually says, so I'm not sure why it's so important what I think it means.

But if you're so insistent on in, I'm not saying the Federation should "stay out" of the situation. All I'm saying is that I think bi-lateral talks between the Amarki and the Orions, mediated through the Federation but not filtered through the Federation, would be most helpful to resolve the immediate crisis of the Amarkian Navy begin about to invade Orion space. Kruschev and Kennedy need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to each other before we stumble accidentally into war.
 
F
Briefvoice said:
Well you're not voting on my interpretation of the Sousa speech I put out there, just what it actually says, so I'm not sure why it's so important what I think it means.

But if you're so insistent on in, I'm not saying the Federation should "stay out" of the situation. All I'm saying is that I think bi-lateral talks between the Amarki and the Orions, mediated through the Federation but not filtered through the Federation, would be most helpful to resolve the immediate crisis of the Amarkian Navy begin about to invade Orion space. Kruschev and Kennedy need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to each other before we stumble accidentally into war.
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Air enough.

[X] Briefvoice.
 
To be clear, one reason I'm EXTREMELY nervous about us starting to see the Orion Union government as an obstacle is that it reminds me of Vietnam.

The South Vietnamese government wound up getting overthrown repeatedly by military coups in the mid-60s. One effect of this was that the South Vietnamese themselves lost political unity and a sense of the legitimacy of the government, making the Viet Cong and the North Vietnamese seem better by comparison. Another effect was that many American citizens began to doubt whether South Vietnam was worth fighting for, as it became more clear the country was being run by military juntas.

This was a contributing factor in the eventual collapse of both the American war effort in Vietnam, and the South Vietnamese war effort itself.

Destabilizing the government of the local ally you're relying on in a civil war, or even ceasing to respect that government, is not a recipe for victory.

Briefvoice said:
Well you're not voting on my interpretation of the Sousa speech I put out there, just what it actually says, so I'm not sure why it's so important what I think it means.

But if you're so insistent on in, I'm not saying the Federation should "stay out" of the situation. All I'm saying is that I think bi-lateral talks between the Amarki and the Orions, mediated through the Federation but not filtered through the Federation, would be most helpful to resolve the immediate crisis of the Amarkian Navy begin about to invade Orion space. Kruschev and Kennedy need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to each other before we stumble accidentally into war.
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Okay. Would you be open to amending your wording a bit to make that more clear? SWB amended his writing in response to concerns and suggestions, and that was well received.

Basically, I think some language is needed to the effect that "the Federation should commit to doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate, but the immediate problem needs to be resolved by the Amarki and Orion governments themselves, with Federation support and mediation."
 
Random Member said:
Ways that don't involve Amarki ships in Union space.
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Why not? Why not, say, divide the Starfleet component of the Anti-Syndicate Taskforce and the component of the Amarkian navy destined for Orion space amongst two forces, one under Starfleet and one under Amarkian command, with a Starfleet RA in overall command. This will increase our actions and use the Amarkian force in useful ways, yet is allowable under existing amendable legislation. There will be issues, but not "we are being invaded" issued. Just an example of something that could work, not a prescriptive solution.

Briefvoice said:
Well you're not voting on my interpretation of the Sousa speech I put out there, just what it actually says, so I'm not sure why it's so important what I think it means.

But if you're so insistent on in, I'm not saying the Federation should "stay out" of the situation. All I'm saying is that I think bi-lateral talks between the Amarki and the Orions, mediated through the Federation but not filtered through the Federation, would be most helpful to resolve the immediate crisis of the Amarkian Navy begin about to invade Orion space. Kruschev and Kennedy need to be able to pick up the phone and talk to each other before we stumble accidentally into war.
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We aren't likely to get another opportunity to give advice. Leaving the big picture out is choosing to have no opinion. Maybe we get to Snakepit and pick to amend legislation... half a year after the fact. If you think we should take action, say so.

Because we're voting on the content of your vote, I am going to continue to slam it for refusing to take action on a Federation level. That is what you are voting to do.
 
And I still don't see what's wrong with drawing Amarkian forces into a broader response framework. Bilateral talks mediated by but not filtered through the Federation sounds neat, until you realize that member fleets must operate on rules set out in the Federation charter and therefore the Council is the mechanism that must regulate their use past borders. The existing rules mean the Council IS already what filters any arrangement. Anything less would not be legal.
 
I have to say, I don't know where any idea that the Orion Union government isn't doing enough to fight the Syndicate is coming from.

It got a little overshadowed by the attack on the Amarki, but they shot a photon torpedo at a Syndicate base to kick off their most recent campaign. Everybody talking about blood and glassing planets, isn't that exactly the sort of thing you were asking for? The Union found a Syndicate base and they blew it the fuck up, no attempt to make any arrests or anything like that. The Union used a photon torpedo before the Syndicate did! Probably they only time they don't do that sort of thing more often is that Syndicate bases are usually in the middle of cities of innocent people.

Again, the Union did this before Lironh. I take any idea that they are "too soft" on the Syndicate with extreme skepticism.

Simon_Jester said:
Basically, I think some language is needed to the effect that "the Federation should commit to doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate, but the immediate problem needs to be resolved by the Amarki and Orion governments themselves, with Federation support and mediation."
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Sure, if you like. I'll go back and take a look.

SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
We aren't likely to get another opportunity to give advice. Leaving the big picture out is choosing to have no opinion. Maybe we get to Snakepit and pick to amend legislation... half a year after the fact. If you think we should take action, say so.

Because we're voting on the content of your vote, I am going to continue to slam it for refusing to take action on a Federation level. That is what you are voting to do.
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Well that's fair, because we have an actual point of disagreement. I believe our current strategy against the Syndicate is a sound one and does not require drastic changes. We are taking action against the Syndicate already, and we are doing so successfully, and even though it's a grind in time we will avenge the citizens of Lironh. I am confident that more resources will be added to the fight, but the basic nature of the fight does not need to change. Let's look at your actual vote.

[x] Madam President. This is not just an attack on the Confederacy. It is an attack on the entire Federation. The slave raid that triggered all of this could have happened anywhere. We could be trying those criminals on Ferasa, on Andor, on Earth. Here in Paris.
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No argument.

-[x] To stop the Amarki from responding is impossible. But the Federation must also respond. To let the Amarki and Orions handle this alone is unconscionable, and flies against the reason the Federation exists. We have been attacked. All of us. The Cardassians are preying on a weakness that we allow only if we let the Amarki and Orions proceed alone.
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I don't know what "proceed alone" means or how you imagine we're doing that. We have Starfleet ships moving through Orion worlds one by one. The Union just fired a photon torpedo at their own planet.

-[x] Many of our members are ready to commit forces. Why not bring the Amarki in to a Federation-wide response? Member and Union forces could have roles, and could operate under a Council mandate similar to the Anti-Syndicate Taskforce. Such a force can be developed and used in conjunction with the Union instead of unilaterally by the Amarki. Alternately, add Starfleet assets by letting us draw down elsewhere.
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I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation, assuming the Federation President can "bring the Amarki in" or leave them out at her discretion. She is dealing with a political crisis at the moment where the Amarki are inches from saying "fuck it" and invading Orion space regardless of what the President says to do god knows what. There is no time to coordinate this Federation-wide response before the political crisis is resolved.

-[x] The Orions are worried about sovereignty. But they already allow Starfleet, the CFP, the Andorian Guard, and the UESPA to help them against the Syndicate. Without the fear that the Amarki will act unilaterally, the Cardassian offer means nothing. That means the Union needs to be involved, but it also means they need to accept that the entire Federation is going to fight alongside them.
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They "need to accept" huh? And what's your solution if they don't accept? It all just seems presumptuous to me. The political realities are closing in on the Union government, controlling what they can and can't accept.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
And I still don't see what's wrong with drawing Amarkian forces into a broader response framework. Bilateral talks mediated by but not filtered through the Federation sounds neat, until you realize that member fleets must operate on rules set out in the Federation charter and therefore the Council is the mechanism that must regulate their use past borders. The existing rules mean the Council IS already what filters any arrangement. Anything less would not be legal.
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And if the Amarki decide that they will do something 'illegal' and beg forgiveness later? This seems like a realistic possibility to me.
 
Simon_Jester said:
Okay. Would you be open to amending your wording a bit to make that more clear? SWB amended his writing in response to concerns and suggestions, and that was well received.
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Wording added at your request. See below.

Briefvoice said:
EDIT: Made a minor edit in bold per @Simon_Jester's request.

Okay, let me take a shot at this....

[X] Madame President, let us consider three dimensions here. The political, the strategic, and the moral.
-[X] The political: Amarkia must act and be seen to act, the current government of the Orion Union must not fall, and the actions of terrorists must not be allowed to magnificently succeed in producing precisely the result they want.
-[X] The strategic: the Federation has been making in-roads against Cardassian-affiliated species everywhere recently. We have achieved successful diplomacy with the Dawiar, the Gretarians, the Yrillians. They are losing the diplomatic war and they desperately need to convert this into a type of war they can win, without being seen as the aggressors.
-[X] The moral: The people of Amarkia deserve justice, and it must be directed against the actual perpetrators and not misdirected against Orion Union forces.
-[X] The Federation should commit to doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate, but I believe the immediate political dilemma can be resolved only by direct communication between the Amarkian and Orion Union governments. They must come a politically acceptable solution. I can think of a few suggestions off the top of my head. Perhaps the Orion Union could send an aid caravan to Lironh accompanied by Orion patrol vessels, and accept the assistance of Amarkian vessels in return. Each with their fleet above the other's world. Perhaps the Amarkians can send in their gendarmaries. I don't know; but trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie.
-[X] I believe the strategic situation can be resolved by being open about what is going on here. It may be time to expend some our intelligence assets in order to make the chain of events public. The Syndicate attacks, hoping to provoke a response that justifies a Cardassian-backed coup. It's simple enough that the public of all worlds can understand and terrible enough to shock into not playing along.
-[X] As for the moral situation... I suppose we can count on the good Councillor Stesk to be our conscience there.
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Briefvoice said:
I don't know what "proceed alone" means or how you imagine we're doing that. We have Starfleet ships moving through Orion worlds one by one. The Union just fired a photon torpedo at their own planet
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The Cardassian idea is predicated on the idea that the wider Federation does nothing. If this is just an issue between the Amarki, the Union, and the Syndicate, the Cardassians can go ahead and do their protectorate thing. If this is an issue between the Federation, the Union, and the Syndicate, then the Union has already invited us in as you just pointed out yourself.

Briefvoice said:
I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation, assuming the Federation President can "bring the Amarki in" or leave them out at her discretion. She is dealing with a political crisis at the moment where the Amarki are inches from saying "fuck it" and invading Orion space regardless of what the President says to do god knows what. There is no time to coordinate this Federation-wide response before the political crisis is resolved.
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At the very least, we already have an Anti-Syndicate force. But if the President isn't thinking of having a Federation-level military response lined up, I'm saying she should get one going. The Amarki would be a key part of that.

Briefvoice said:
They "need to accept" huh? And what's your solution if they don't accept? It all just seems presumptuous to me. The political realities are closing in on the Union government, controlling what they can and can't accept.
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They need to be convinced to accept it (I'll change the wording), like they are already accepting it. I'll throw that right back at you though. What happens if talks fail, the Amarki invade, and/or the Union refuses? You have no mechanisms in place to account for or mitigate that.
 
Briefvoice said:
I have to say, I don't know where any idea that the Orion Union government isn't doing enough to fight the Syndicate is coming from.

It got a little overshadowed by the attack on the Amarki, but they shot a photon torpedo at a Syndicate base to kick off their most recent campaign. Everybody talking about blood and glassing planets, isn't that exactly the sort of thing you were asking for? The Union found a Syndicate base and they blew it the fuck up, no attempt to make any arrests or anything like that. The Union used a photon torpedo before the Syndicate did! Probably they only time they don't do that sort of thing more often is that Syndicate bases are usually in the middle of cities of innocent people.

Again, the Union did this before Lironh. I take any idea that they are "too soft" on the Syndicate with extreme skepticism.



Sure, if you like. I'll go back and take a look.



Well that's fair, because we have an actual point of disagreement. I believe our current strategy against the Syndicate is a sound one and does not require drastic changes. We are taking action against the Syndicate already, and we are doing so successfully, and even though it's a grind in time we will avenge the citizens of Lironh. I am confident that more resources will be added to the fight, but the basic nature of the fight does not need to change. Let's look at your actual vote.



No argument.



I don't know what "proceed alone" means or how you imagine we're doing that. We have Starfleet ships moving through Orion worlds one by one. The Union just fired a photon torpedo at their own planet.



I believe this is a fundamental misunderstanding of the situation, assuming the Federation President can "bring the Amarki in" or leave them out at her discretion. She is dealing with a political crisis at the moment where the Amarki are inches from saying "fuck it" and invading Orion space regardless of what the President says to do god knows what. There is no time to coordinate this Federation-wide response before the political crisis is resolved.



They "need to accept" huh? And what's your solution if they don't accept? It all just seems presumptuous to me. The political realities are closing in on the Union government, controlling what they can and can't accept.
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I'm not saying they aren't trying. I'm saying they are incompetent and their ham fisted measures are making things worse. I'm not saying we should stop supporting them, but I don't think we should trust them with anything too important.
 
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