To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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The Amarki cry out for Syndicate blood while the Union draws Syndicate blood. Their interests are very well aligned, provided they can find some bureaucratic twist to make it not an Amarki invasion.
As for "doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate", I doubt there's that many people that disagree with that, the question is methods. The President is likely interested in knowing what methods we recommend.
[] For the Federation, we have unfortunately not been doing everything in our power to combat the Syndicate, but our limiting factor so far has been intelligence, not firepower. A starship is, in the end, a starship, and there isn't much an Excelsior could do to combat Syndicate forces than a Centaur could not. If we must let slip the dogs of war, they should be bloodhounds, not pit bulls. We could use more aggressive scanning, more Intelligence assets, Vulcan financial analysts, if diplomatically possible ask if the Tal Shiar could offer any pointers or leads.
I think that's our actual situation, right?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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It's amazing the Caitians weren't already doing that, really. What is even the point of having cats do your policing if they don't leave dead criminals on your doorstep?
I admit, I can't do any better on you on that front. So it all comes down to which is the less risky approach. What will best defuse the situation? It's not like I don't see where you're coming from on 'plan massive response', but it all comes back to the comment I give Sousa about 'too many fingers in the pie'. I think initial talks will proceed better when the number of participants are limited and we can expand outward from there.
What makes this crisis so unfortunate is that basically everyone wants the same thing. The Union government is on board with "the Syndicate must die". They just need to find a way to get there without an invasion.
"This trash bin is full of dust from where we dropped a photon torpedo on them. We assume there's bits of Syndicate members mixed up in it."
Here's the thing about immediacy. We are hours from an emergency Council session. There are Amarki councilors who are authorized representatives of their people and I'm willing to bet you don't get elected to an Amarki seat without being a respected member of the military. There are Union representatives who should be authorized to negotiate on behalf of the Union. IF we can go into Council and the Amarki say "yes, we want to be part of the Anti-Syndicate forces" and the Union says "yes, we are okay with an amendment to expand the Anti-Slavery Act", then the crisis is solved. Even if all that comes out of it is a declaration of agreement from all parties, and the Council amends the Act itself later. IF that fails, THEN we can resort to mediation. Because the Council meeting is intended to solve the crisis, we need to give the immediate advice of "here is the ideal resolution" first, and then you settle for mediation if that doesn't work.
Again, the Council meeting is happening now, and the mediation if necessary would happen later than now!
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Not addressed to me but I am not sure any of us have any plans for that. Oh boy, now we really are in a war with Cardassia and the Democratic Orion Union.
I'm still kinda liking the idea of 'hiring Amarkian mercenaries' at rock-bottom prices. I mean, they don't need the money, but it's a convenient fiction and they can invest it in anti-syndicate operations in other areas.
Okay, I think I've said my piece so I'm going to bow out of the discussion for a few hours. Don't want anyone to think I'm ignoring them.
I have made the following amendments to my vote (in bold).
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Wow, a lot of discussion overnight, good to see.
Not on the desktop at the moment so I'll hold off on ending the vote yet, let it stay open for a while today.
Not on the desktop at the moment so I'll hold off on ending the vote yet, let it stay open for a while today.
ClawClawBite
Mad Engineering!
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- Seattle, WA
First, even if it should go without saying, the first thing we need to do is mobilize all aid the Amarki government is willing to accept and send it. Ships for search/scan and rescue. Medical ships and personal. Engineering teams to stabilize the buildings. Access to priority construction gear to house the people unhomed. As we speak, there should already be orders to the nearest ships outside the sector to stand by for orders, and the ones in sector are on there way.
Second, as we rescue and rebuild, we need to make sure the people of Orion see what the criminals hiding among them did. The Federation Broadcast service needs to document this, and we need to get it on the air in Orion Space with as much credibility as we can.
Higher level diplomacy is important, but rescue and aid come first.
Second, as we rescue and rebuild, we need to make sure the people of Orion see what the criminals hiding among them did. The Federation Broadcast service needs to document this, and we need to get it on the air in Orion Space with as much credibility as we can.
Higher level diplomacy is important, but rescue and aid come first.
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changing my vote
[X] Briefvoice.
qq, the script only looks at the last vote i made right? or should i go back and find my old post?
also, remember people: we're offering advice, not enacting policy. I'd wager that the differences between brief's and swb's plans are minor enough that we'll get roughly the same thing in both cases.
[X] Briefvoice.
qq, the script only looks at the last vote i made right? or should i go back and find my old post?
also, remember people: we're offering advice, not enacting policy. I'd wager that the differences between brief's and swb's plans are minor enough that we'll get roughly the same thing in both cases.
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We also need to disseminate as much footage as possible showcasing damage the Syndicate has done elsewhere - including damage to the people who live in the Orion Union. We cannot afford to let public opinion (in particular, Amarki public opinion) conflate the innocent citizens of the Union with the slavers, pirates and terrorists of the Syndicate.
That, however, is for later discussion with PR types.
@Briefvoice, when you get back, can you remove the advice about Union ships over Amarkia? That will be incredibly provocative in Amarkian politics even if you intend otherwise.
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Well, I keep trying to pin him down on this. There are several possibilities:
1) The Federation as such does nothing except offer to mediate between the Amarki Confederacy and the Orion Union.
This is not going to be sufficient, among other things because it doesn't convince the Amarki that the Federation actually cares about their security. This is a much more vicious provocation that's hit the Amarki, compared to what hit the Caitians at the start of the Caitian-Dawiar War. Treating this as something we can settle purely with talk is unwise. Talks will be necessary to prevent immediate crisis, but we're going to have to work out a medium-term solution that will involve a Federation-level effort.
2) Federation commits increased resources, while committing to mediate the talks in (1).
This is not so bad, as a short term response to the crisis. It would probably be just as well to let the Confederacy and Union negotiate for a few months to help us figure out which Amarki assets will be helpful in Orion space. The bombing probably didn't leave a trail we can "hot pursue" back up the chain into Orion space (though if it did that'd be great), so taking some time will help. Plus, even the Amarki probably need time to mobilize, and the response is probably going to involve ground troops. A few months to organize would be helpful even for the Amarki.
3) Federation commits increased resources, Amarki-Orion talks as a backup resort plan.
The problem here is that by not leading with Amarki-Orion talks, we create a situation where Amarki boots are likely to wind up on the ground without a sense that the Orion Union has any capacity to restrain them. Because the "increased resources" will have to include Amarki personnel. As a result, 'alien invasion' rhetoric in Orion space will go through the roof. I'm not objecting to this because it involves doing different things than are likely to happen under (2). My objection is that we really, really need to commit to working through the Orion Union, not against it, because if they break down we're screwed. Likewise if the Syndicate creates a situation where "anti-Syndicate" and "pro-alien goon squads" become synonymous in the Orion public's mind.
EDIT: To be clear, I know you already pointed out that you're hoping we can get Amarki-Orion agreement on a plan right here and now in the emergency Council session. But the question is, to what extent do the Orions get to negotiate the extent to which the Amarki become personally involved in the campaign, and how they behave when they arrive? If they feel we're trying to strongarm them into the position of accepting what will look to their public like an alien invasion, they may start making decisions we don't like.
4) We go full Mirror Universe (you never go full Mirror Universe)
This is what I call all the strategies like "time to invade Orion space, the Union government has become an obstacle." That would be going full Mirror Universe, because it basically commits us to attempting to conquer Orion space. It gets all the nationalists who aren't presently shooting us to join the Syndicate and start shooting at us. And it will lock us into a cycle of atrocities, made worse by the fact that our occupying ground troops will almost have to be drawn heavily from the Amarki, who have massive personal grudges.
This kind of thing is how the Terran Empire wound up getting trounced by the Klingon-Cardassian alliance in the MIrror Universe, because they did stuff like this.
...
Now basically, I favor (2) though I can work with (3). I think Briefvoice is coming down in favor of (2), but (1) is his response to the immediate political crisis that might have the Amarki invading Orion space within a matter of a week or two. Because, well, expanding the Federation-level anti-Syndicate force will take a month or three, if only because ships take time to move around transporting detectives and troops and whatnot.
You seem to favor (3), shading towards (2). But some of your supporters appear to favor (4). As noted, I can work with (3), but not (4).
So it's a bit complicated, at least for me.
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Side notes:
I would like to consider getting an Amarki gendarme unit to operate alongside each Caitian battalion. The Caitians can keep an eye on the Amarki and make sure they don't make dumb violent mistakes, while the Amarki add weight and numbers, and can handle some of the 'heavy infantry' duties the Caitians are at best adequate for.
Also... the antimatter bomb was pretty clearly used to kill off troublesome witnesses the Amarki captured at the slave auction. This actually gives the Union some talking points, because I'm pretty sure one of the points the Amarki themselves made about taking the auction patrons into custody was "how can you be sure they're securely held in Orion space?" Turns out they weren't safe in Amarki space, either...
We had options to get the Federation Broadcasting Service more heavily involved in all this. Maybe it's time to revisit what they have in mind.
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Those people are voting for the war declaration plans, for the most part.
We won't know if we don't try! That's entirely the point of going through the Council. The Council can set rules! Those rules have the legal force of the entire Federation behind them! If the CFP, for example, broke the ROE the Council set for their deployment, the rule breakers would get fucked by the legal mechanisms of the Federation. An agreement between the Amarki and the Union separately is worth less because it lacks of the full backing of the Council. That is a big part of why using the Federation as a framework for any Amarki intervention is so important. The Federation is the Union guarantee that the Amarki will play nice, and they are already trusting the Federation as a guarantee that the Caitians and the Betazoids and Starfleet play nice.
It's also the SAME GUARANTEE that the Cardassians are offering a backwards way! The Federation can step in and say "here is why it will not be an invasion, because it will be subject to these rules we will enforce". This is what we get by going through the Council and why bypassing the Council has me tearing my hair out in frustration. WHY would we do that?! We gain nothing.
I think I've explained the problems with (2) above, and have already gone over the issues with (1) at length.
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Well, there remains the fundamental concern that if the Amarki feel like the Federation is delaying on the matter, they may attack before we have a chance to organize a response.
I'm kind of caught between your version and Briefvoice's. Because I am pretty sure that the Amarki will demand more than just participation in the anti-Syndicate force; they'll want a significant reorganization of it, a large increase, and a lot of their forces going into the task. If they're worried that they're going to be called to "restrain themselves" down to a minimalist level, the risk of them taking their toys and going home becomes high.
So if the Amarki stay with the program, you're totally right that mediating everything through the Federation is absolutely the way to go. What's problematic is that the Amarki and the Orion Union are having a LOT of friction, and this friction is not being resolved properly. If this were a normal dispute between members, we'd consider a set of bilateral talks, mediated by the Federation, as an important part of the solution. That's what we'd do if, say, the Andorians and the Caitians were arguing over mining rights.
So while we may want to insist that Amarki actions be taken under the Federation's aegis (and under its rules)... We're still going to need a way to settle the ongoing disputes created by an Orion civil war spilling over into Amarki space.
I'm kind of caught between your version and Briefvoice's. Because I am pretty sure that the Amarki will demand more than just participation in the anti-Syndicate force; they'll want a significant reorganization of it, a large increase, and a lot of their forces going into the task. If they're worried that they're going to be called to "restrain themselves" down to a minimalist level, the risk of them taking their toys and going home becomes high.
So if the Amarki stay with the program, you're totally right that mediating everything through the Federation is absolutely the way to go. What's problematic is that the Amarki and the Orion Union are having a LOT of friction, and this friction is not being resolved properly. If this were a normal dispute between members, we'd consider a set of bilateral talks, mediated by the Federation, as an important part of the solution. That's what we'd do if, say, the Andorians and the Caitians were arguing over mining rights.
So while we may want to insist that Amarki actions be taken under the Federation's aegis (and under its rules)... We're still going to need a way to settle the ongoing disputes created by an Orion civil war spilling over into Amarki space.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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We should be revisiting every nonmilitary option that anyone has ever considered discussing. Flooding Orion space with warships may be unwise, but flooding the airwaves with the results of this atrocity is not an act of war. Getting the Vulcan investigators involved is not an act of war, more thoroughly monitoring international traffic isn't an act of war, undercutting the hypercorps into oblivion probably isn't an act of war, begging the Romulans to teach us how to intelligence isn't an act of war. Many options exist.
- Location
- Terror Australis
[X] Briefvoice.
This is effectively an Orion civil war between the Orion Union and the Orion Syndicate, it is just complicated by the Syndicate being a non-state actor.
I think your are massively underestimating how strong the Syndicate is compared to the Union government. While there have been some mistakes, the Union government really doesn't have the capability to achieve much without drastic actions. The Syndicate is just that powerful and entrenched into Orion society.
This is effectively an Orion civil war between the Orion Union and the Orion Syndicate, it is just complicated by the Syndicate being a non-state actor.
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aeqnai
Nerdy Homu
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- Laniakea Supercluster
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[X] Briefvoice
Rather tentative vote, really, and contingent on what @Simon_Jester 's said about his interpretation of the plan...
Also, on a perhaps less contentious topic:
In the meta, when would this ep have aired, and what would it do to our viewing fandom?
Rather tentative vote, really, and contingent on what @Simon_Jester 's said about his interpretation of the plan...
Also, on a perhaps less contentious topic:
In the meta, when would this ep have aired, and what would it do to our viewing fandom?
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Well, it's definitely part of Season Six. Each season is roughly, roughly two years long. Season Five covered 2309 and 2310, approximately, beginning with the bombing of Courageous, and the Kadak-Tor two-parter aired in the middle of the fifth season. That would mean that Season Six covers 2311-12, with possibly some fudge factor on one end or the other of that. So this is actually pretty close to the end of Season Six.
Since To Boldly Go is slotted into the timeline as "the show we get instead of Enterprise," the end of the sixth season would be airing in the spring of 2007.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use the torpedo-bombing of the Amarki capital as the season finale, but they're obviously building up to it.
Eventually, a non-Syndicate revolutionary movement arose, abolished slavery (at least formally), and reduced the power of the corporations. But this is a new development. And there are probably a lot of Orion citizens who still think of the Syndicate as a force that is inside their tent, defending them against enemies, instead of being a predator or a parasite on Orion society at large. This makes it very hard for a government to uproot them.
Since To Boldly Go is slotted into the timeline as "the show we get instead of Enterprise," the end of the sixth season would be airing in the spring of 2007.
I'm pretty sure they wouldn't use the torpedo-bombing of the Amarki capital as the season finale, but they're obviously building up to it.
Furthermore, the Syndicate has existed for centuries and predates the Union government. The Union government is itself the product of revolutionary movements that reduced the power of Orion hypercorps a few decades ago. As in, if you think the hypercorps are powerful now, they were a lot stronger back in the TOS era. Go back to that time, and I suspect you find that there were two major pillars of traditional power in Orion society- the corporations, and the Syndicate. The Syndicate was in a real sense the common Orion's "equalizer" against the corporations, insofar as they had one at all.
Eventually, a non-Syndicate revolutionary movement arose, abolished slavery (at least formally), and reduced the power of the corporations. But this is a new development. And there are probably a lot of Orion citizens who still think of the Syndicate as a force that is inside their tent, defending them against enemies, instead of being a predator or a parasite on Orion society at large. This makes it very hard for a government to uproot them.
That concern is the same if they feel the Union is delaying. Worse, because it seems they trust the Union less. Much less. The councilors are still here in session, aren't they?
The Syndicate is what decides spillover, not any party we can negotiate with.
More to the point, the Union is just as likely to put obstructions in the way as the Council is. And the trust isn't there. Much like the Union is already trusting us to keep units to the rules we set, the Amarki should be able to trust us to advocate for Federation citizens. Their citizens. If the Federation can't function in this capacity, then without that trust, the Amarki are going to leave. The Amarki would only insist on their own operation or their own negotiations if they don't trust the Federation. What does that mean for the Federation? I see it as the beginning of the end. So to me, 1 and 2 are failure states.
The Council is the place where the Amarki and the Union both are present and will both be talking right now. It's the right place to start.
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- Central Standard Time
Timeline:
Season 1: Biophage. Climax: Kadesh Orbit
Season 2: Hello, Cardassia, Amarki Ratification. Catian/Dawiar war. Climax: Nash's loop, Endless Eight style, but with only 3 episodes.
Season 3: Cardassian Shenanigans continue. Climax: Grey October
Season 4: Now. Midseason wham episode: This.
All headcanon, of course. I'm in favor of denser seasons. This also assumes a focus on the various ships and their crews.
Star Trek: Commander would feature shorter seasons and spread content over more seasons.
And there's a third interpretation that hasn't been brought out yet: Two shows, like DS9 + TNG
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