To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

[Glassware]

I think we should modify Anti slavery act to allow hot pursuit. Amarkia then can put down a blocked around the Orion space and snipe any target they want as long as they can pretend it was a hot pursuit and Union can honestly say Amarkia is not invading them after all they have same right to hot pursuit in Amarkia space -Which they won't use ever but nobody needs to know that-

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Counterproductive. If the Amarki start shooting Orion commerce vessels it'll have a similar psychological effect as them invading Orion space-to create fear of them which will drive the Orions towards the Cardassians.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

We should do everything we can to take down the Syndicate, which means working closely with the Orion Union government and sending them forces that they can utilize in places where they realistically can without causing their government to fall and being seen as in invasion. In short, we should be doing... what we are already doing. Oh, I'm sure there are more resources we can add around the edges. Get those Vulcan financial analysts in. More police. Maybe some more ships might help. But the sad fact is, there's nothing fundamentally different it would be useful to do that we aren't already doing.

This is one of the most different situations in politics, where a crisis happens and the public demands that something must be done, but you're already doing everything it would be useful to do. I mean, the Federation has already been engaged in a multi-year effort to bring down the Syndicate. I don't see the case that there is something useful we could have been doing but weren't sufficiently motivated to do so before now. I do see a case that there are non-useful, even counter-productive things that we have refrained from doing, and that we are now being pushed to do anyway.

"Something must be done! This is something, therefore it must be done." A political fallacy it's all too easy to fall into.

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Except the consequences for not doing something is that the Union government falls, the Amarki break from the Federation, and we go to war with the Cardassians. They've very conveniently put us in a position where something does indeed have to be done, because real consequences have been attached to public perception.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

Besides, we wanted to step up operations against the Syndicate anyway. How convenient that we can bring in all sorts of forces we wouldn't otherwise have access to. Or that we campaigned last Snakepit to add force to a future amendment of the act. If the Amarki want to volunteer their forces, if we can gather up more police, more special forces teams, more detectives. Great. That was what we wanted to do anyway. And the only way to do that is to go official through the Council.

Otherwise when they later amend the act the Council looks like hypocrites.

 

[Random Member]

You know, I'm not too sure the pro-Cardassian Orion elements are going to see much of a difference between Amarki ships entering their space and Amarki troops on their streets.

 

[Briefvoice]

Except the consequences for not doing something is that the Union government falls, the Amarki break from the Federation, and we go to war with the Cardassians. They've very conveniently put us in a position where something does indeed have to be done, because real consequences have been attached to public perception.

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I understand that something has to be done, but I'd argue that the criteria for success is that it satisfies both the Amarki and Orion publics. That's the consequence you yourself just quoted for failure, right? That the Amarki break from the Federation, that the Orion Union falls. So if those are the two groups that it is most vital to satisfy, I'd argue that they are the two who need to get together and figure it out.

So how does bringing in the rest of the Federation help matters? Who cares what the Humans, the Tellarites, the Andorians, or the Vulcans think is the best response? If any of those groups feel like the Federation isn't doing enough than boo-hoo, it can be patched up later. It's not a threat like if the Amarkians and Orions don't reach a consensus.

Besides, we wanted to step up operations against the Syndicate anyway. How convenient that we can bring in all sorts of forces we wouldn't otherwise have access to. Or that we campaigned last Snakepit to add force to a future amendment of the act. If the Amarki want to volunteer their forces, if we can gather up more police, more special forces teams, more detectives. Great. That was what we wanted to do anyway. And the only way to do that is to go official through the Council.

Otherwise when they later amend the act the Council looks like hypocrites.

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I hardly think that taking time for a measured response makes anyone look like hypocrites.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I beg to disagree.

This is a threat to the Federation as a whole, a potentially very dire one. There is the mere physical threat that has seen a city gutted by a weapon of mass destruction, and there is every reason to suggest that the Syndicate will try it again. How many hundreds of thousands of our citizens have to be immolated before it becomes an emergency for you? How many cities need to be destroyed?

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If the threat of the Kadak-Tor, which as far as any Federation person knew was very likely to kill many millions, did not constitute a state of emergency... this really, really does not either.

I recognize your argument that there is a threat to the Federation as an idea, but that is very different from a threat like "get eaten by the biophage" or "get assimilated by the Borg" or even "get conquered by the Dominion."

If the Cardassians actually attack us, and I mean with all their forces not just a little skirmishing, then this becomes an emergency.

Then there is the threat to the Federation as an idea and an organization. If we do not respond in a sufficient way the Amarki will quit They will leave and attempt to handle matters themselves. And that would be a very bad position for use to be in. We would be forced to choose between allowing the Amarki to attack an affiliate, undermining the confidence and belief in our ideals, that would see our existing affiliates leave and possibly other members too.

Or we would have to fight the Amarki to defend the Union, which would drive the Amarki into the arms of the Cardassians, Which when the ever more certain war with the Cardies comes, would put us in a disastrous position.

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Both of these are outcomes that only come about after we would have (hypothetically) mismanaged the situation. We can't declare a state of emergency because something very bad might happen if we screw up.

The Amarki must be satisfied that we are handling this matter seriously, and the Orions cannot be persecuted for the action of the Syndicate. Making the destruction of the Syndicate a Federation wide priority though member world fleet federalizations, accomplishes this by getting the Amarki into the fight agsint the right targets, and under our direction. It gives us far more resources to extend and pursue our current anti-syndicate campaign. Already handling this within the normal political process is becoming untenable as the cost has mounted to very high levels, this will drastically sap our politcal power and ability to further prosecute the campaign. A state of emergency and a Federation wide effort will get us what we need to end this.

Because the alternatives are a campaign of WMD bombing agsint Federation cities, or total war against a peer power.

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We clearly need a very effective response. My point is that a declaration of war isn't it. And that a Federation-wide mobilization as implemented through the state of emergency isn't it, either. Trying to give all power to Sousa so that she can 'end the Syndicate threat' isn't going to work, because the Syndicate's going to be around for a very long time even if we utterly crush its strength down to a tiny fragment.

It would be almost the textbook case of some overly ambitious person trying to come up with a 'permanent emergency' as an excuse for ruling as a dictator.

And yes declaring war is only symbolic, and for propaganda purposes. But right now I think the Amarkians need that propaganda. They need to know that we feel their pain as well, and that we will all act to seek justice together.

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A declaration of war is a rather unwise way to achieve this goal.

It still reeks of a kind of action that had external help though. I mean, sure, it'll play to die-hard Syndicate crowd, but I imagine the whole rest of Orion space will be horrified.

It's one thing to do buisness with Syndicate, and saying that they're a traditional Orion society that promotes traditional Orion values; it's something entirely different from doing buisness with a society that has mandated (or was at least actively complicit) WMD attack on civilian target, killing hundreds of thousands.

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It depends on point of view. Hopefully it'll be omaketime for me, giving me a chance to address it.

Actually no, a good lawyer would get away with it.

I'm not sure how Star Trek spess law works, but normally you can make a case that it is permissible for a state to violate another's sovereignty if its territory or citizens had been used to launch an attack, and the other party is proved to be sufficiently unwilling, or unable to do something about it.

Granted, Orion Union is fighting the Syndicate, but frankly its handling of the situation has been fairly inept, and the sheer levels of corruption at highest levels can make for legitimate case that "no, it's not really trying".

It's of course one of those "from certain point of view" arguments, but international law in general is exceptionally poor in preventing conflicts, due to how it can be interpreted, and the wrangling that ensues.

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One big issue with that is, whose lawyers? Earth's international law has taken a generally agreed-upon shape. I'd bet large sums that no other alien civilization has exactly the same ideas that 2000-era Earth does. Certainly the Orions won't.

Why is it acceptable not to involve the Federation at large? Were thousands of Federation citizens were not just murdered? If the Federation does not have a response of their own and limits to managing the Amarki and Union then the entire foundation it is built on becomes weaker. And that is what the Cardasdians are hoping to erode. We play into their hands by not doing something as a Federation. That is why I cannot support Briefvoice's vote.

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What the Federation can/should do under Briefvoice's plan is mediate- and continue to do exactly what it's already doing against the Syndicate, only harder.

Of course if you'd actually read the rest of that post (and the following ones) you'd realize this isn't likely and this has already been addressed, several times.

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I think that particular point deserved to be addressed more than once. One of the very serious threats we face in this crisis is that if we don't act in a way that satisfies the Amarki need for a response, certain species, the Amarki chief among them, may decide that Federation membership is pointless because it does not provide any collective security against direct attacks on their soil. Without the promise of collective defense the Federation completely falls apart.

So we can't really even bar the Amarki from responding (unless our own response revs up so ferociously that they themselves agree to let us handle it). And we certainly can't respond to their attempt to respond by attacking them. If we do that, then we're effectively allying with the enemy of one of our own member worlds, against one of our own member worlds.

A warhead that hit a supposed target in an uninhabited wasteland. While I hate to be the one to make this kind of argument, you can reason that firing on a bunch of empty mountains with a proton torpedo is a grand gesture, but one that amounts to...what exactly? The Orion Union says it has been a Syndicate base, but was it really? Anyone can torpedo a bunch of wastelands and say "we're totally fighting against our space terrorists, here be craters", which is very convenient when the blast wave would annihilate any evidence.

It is eyerolling yes, but then you have to consider that Union has been really obstructionist with its actions against Amarakia lately, and it is very, very corrupt.

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I think you're grossly misreading them.

It looks as though Iron Wolf's omakes on the internal politics of the Union government are pretty close to canon. Look at them as your guideline. The Union government (barring maybe a couple of Cabinet officials) WANT to fight the Syndicate, with Federation backing. They'd be happy to fight it without Federation backing, but they honestly don't have the strength to do so, because they're a recent revolutionary movement that overthrew the corporatocracy, while the Syndicate is a centuries-old organization that is deeply entrenched and has had ample time to subvert many of their officials.

"The Union" is not obstructing us. They're caught between a rock and a hard place- they can't even claim to their own citizens that they ARE the Orion government unless they take ownership of the anti-Syndicate campaign themselves. They can't cede ownership of that campaign without ceding their claim to run their own society, at which point their government dissolves, and blows up our anti-Syndicate campaign with it!

That's why they've been insisting on the right to try Orions captured by the Amarki navy. That's why they've committed troops to Duaba.

But the top levels of the Union government are pretty much free of Syndicate influence, or as free of it as we can possibly hope for. There is no way we could get a 'better' government except by invading Orion space, toppling the entire government, and replacing it with people we'd vetted by telepaths. Which may sound great to you... but no one would listen to that new government. They would have LESS legitimacy and popular support, in all likelihood, than the Cardassia-puppeted government currently claiming to run Bajor. At least the Bajorans don't have grounds to complain that the 'Bajoran government' in question was brainwashed by psychics before taking office!

Which is where a second point comes in: the current campaign has pretty much proven that Union is pretty much rotten through. There have been corrupted officers on almost every level. Sure, Union grunts have killed and died in the street fighting, but what has that actually achieved?

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They've captured numerous high-ranking Syndicate leaders, targeted some of the most powerful corporations providing aid to the Syndicate,

The fact that they aren't achieving much isn't because they're incompetent or pro-Syndicate. It's because the task is just that hard. The Syndicate isn't like the Mafia in the US, a group that the overwhelming majority of the population would be happy to get rid of if they thought they could. It has significant popular support, large numbers of people prepared to die for it, a pre-existing cell structure that makes it extremely hard to unravel, and extensive links to the top levels of Orion's corporate hierarchy, in a society that is even now dominated by hypercorporations to a large degree, despite having already had a revolution to greatly reduce the level of corporate power!

If anything, Amarakia can make the case that fighting has been effective only because Starfleet is following it every step of the way, providing neccessary capability to a government that would be unable to root out its internal troublemakers on its own.

An Amarakian-Federation invasion of Orion territory could restore stability, remove the clearly bloodthirsty and gung-ho Aerocommando and Hypercorp troops, preventing further massacres, secure Syndicate targets more effectively and have an easier time accessing the sectors of Orion society that are at most risk.

I'm saying "could" of course, because it's a very much "They said-we-said-they-said" argument, but it will have a strong appeal. Not to entire council, but it will certainly split it.

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This is... no. Just... no.

The Amarki are going to be more bloodthirsty and gung-ho than the Aerocommandos and ISSU forces, especially if committed in the numbers (think tens of millions of troops) required to entirely replace the existing security forces of the Orion government. Furthermore, if we invade openly, there will be no Orion government anyone is willing to take orders from... except the Syndicate. It would be a disastrous change in the rules of the conflict. It will not restore stability, it will ensure that Orion space either collapses into anarchy. Or worse yet, becomes an ungovernable mess where we unsuccessfully try to prop up a puppet government no one on the ground cares about, while a guerilla organization organizes the population, probably with outside support, until it is in a position to take over by default as soon as our (tens of millions) of troops leave for any reason.

Right now it's Space Afghanistan circa 2004 with us cast as the US; you're proposing to turn it into Space Afghanistan circa 1984 with us cast as the Soviets.

These are outcomes even worse than the civil war Orion space is now experiencing.

 

[CyberFemme]

I've gone back and found some old options for Orion Syndicate actions. Given current vents, I expect the pp costs of some of these things may have shifted. Putting through the Comprehensive Anti-Syndicate Act could be a good show of public commitment to dismantling the Syndicate once and for all. We may be able to ask for dispensation to allow Amarki Guard units to join the Anti-Syndicate Operations (Starfleet is quote stretched right now). We can also bump up our ROE to Pursuit or Open Season.


[ ][COUNCIL] Comprehensive Anti-Syndicate Act of 2309 [3 Influence, 5 Impact, -15pp/year while in effect, comprehensive attack]

What to do within Orion Space
[ ][CLOSE] Use Andorian and Human units [2 Influence, 4 Impact, -5pp/year, reduces units available for border work]

What to do with Intel assets?
[ ][OFFICE8] Help purge Orion Union forces [2 Influence, 3 Impact, reduced chance of Orion subversion]

What to do with your Special Operations team?
[ ][OFFICE24] Assign two Centaur-As and let them seek and attack installations [2 Influence, 4 Impact, tie down USS Yukikaze and one other Centaur-A]
[ ][OFFICE24] Assign runabouts and let them arrest high-profile targets [1 Influence, 2 Impact]

What are your rules of engagement?
[ ][ROE] Policing only [0 Influence, 2 Impact]
[ ][ROE] Self-Defence or Pursuit [1 Influence, 3 Impact]
[ ][ROE] Open Season [2 Influence, 4 Impact, 2 Militarisation]

 

[Iron Wolf]

On the bloodthirsty note: the Aerocommandos tend to be the most surgical of the Orion forces. I recall most of the overreach and blood in the street incidents have involved the national police and their heavily-militarized SWAT/BOPE equivalent, the ISSU.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

"Admiral. Explain this Cardassian entreaty to us."

You nod your head respectfully at your Commander-in-Chief. "Madam President. Our Signals intercept work has caught wind of an approach by the Cardassians to make a protectorate of the Orion Union, which would force the Amarkians to back off."

The leader of the Development faction, a Tellarite named Glag brisc Jorth, rears back in shock. "We're wiretapping their diplomatic channels - I don't recall authorising that?"

"You are correct, that is not authorised," you reply. "This didn't come in on the official channels, or we wouldn't have known about it. It was very much a back-channel approach made through Syndicate-friendly parties of the Union government."

"So, an offer of a coup," mutters Rangyad of Rigel, the Mercantilist faction leader. "That would be a princely pay-off. The more frightened the Union is of Amarkia, the more acceptable it will seem to factions on Alukk."

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"The Cardassians are making an outreach to the Union government, offering protection from Amarkian retribution."

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You know, I'm not too sure the pro-Cardassian Orion elements are going to see much of a difference between Amarki ships entering their space and Amarki troops on their streets.

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I'm pretty sure that every proposal involves obtaining cooperation from the Union in some manner. But the Amarkians are not going to accept not involving themselves in some way. So the difference is not relevant. We get ships, troops, or ships and troops. There is no alternative where we don't get one or both.

 

[Torgamous]

You know, I'm not too sure the pro-Cardassian Orion elements are going to see much of a difference between Amarki ships entering their space and Amarki troops on their streets.

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The pro-Cardassian Orion elements are already pro-Cardassian. Our goal is to keep the average Orion from becoming pro-Cardassian Orion elements.

So how does bringing in the rest of the Federation help matters?

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It doesn't, really, in the decision-making process, but afterwards it will be a good image on basically every level for the entire Federation to materially back whatever the Amarki decide sounds good. I think you two might be arguing about two different steps.

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

I hardly think that taking time for a measured response makes anyone look like hypocrites.

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Without Federation-level mandate there is no legal response, no extra resources available, no coordination towards useful objectives. You specifically and literally call to keep the Council out of it. The opposite is necessary. The Council must be the ones setting direction. Otherwise the Federation's authority to govern may as well not exist. We should bring the Amarki into a Federation-wide response. Anything less weakens the Federation position.

e: In fact, this is a useful concept I'll be editing into my vote.

 

[Simon_Jester]

I'm even less sure which plan I want to vote for, now...

I understand that something has to be done, but I'd argue that the criteria for success is that it satisfies both the Amarki and Orion publics. That's the consequence you yourself just quoted for failure, right? That the Amarki break from the Federation, that the Orion Union falls. So if those are the two groups that it is most vital to satisfy, I'd argue that they are the two who need to get together and figure it out.

So how does bringing in the rest of the Federation help matters? Who cares what the Humans, the Tellarites, the Andorians, or the Vulcans think is the best response? If any of those groups feel like the Federation isn't doing enough than boo-hoo, it can be patched up later. It's not a threat like if the Amarkians and Orions don't reach a consensus.

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This shouldn't happen without Federation participation. Among other things, because both the Orions and the Amarki are affiliated with the Federation, to different degrees.

The whole point of the Federation's existence is that the Orion Union, the Amarki Confederacy, or even a joint alliance of the two together, is not in this alone. We're not just going to lock the Amarki and Orion leaders in a room together and wait for them to work something out. We're going to be sitting at that table, responding to their requests and offering our assistance.

Is that not part of what you had in mind? I thought it was...

My rambling thoughts on this:

@SynchronizedWritersBlock, you make some good points. War isn't an entirely appropriate term. The problem is that we don't really have a good word for a warlike action against a non-state actor.

And some of the things you mention as disadvantages seem desirable to me. Defining everyone who still supports the syndicate as an enemy, enabling us to capture them and throw them into something like POW camps and sort things out after the conflict ends seems like a sensible idea to me.

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That means putting tens of millions of people in internment camps for the duration of the war. This is literally the kind of situation that led the British to invent a 'camp system' like that. The one that introduced the term 'concentration camp' to the English language during the Boer War.

What would George Takei say?

There are a LOT of Orions who support the Syndicate but aren't violent supporters of it. If we openly invade Orion space and topple the pro-Federation government, there will be more. We may run out of troops to guard the internment camps at this rate. We'll certainly run out of popular support for Federation policy on a lot of Federation member worlds.

[] SynchronizedWritersBlock

For what it's worth, I think I'm beginning to have a very singular dislike for Stesk. Pacifism is all well and good, but his brand stretches it to the point of self delusion.

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Exactly what has Stesk said that you find objectionable? Is he supposed just not say anything? Let's look at what he actually said:

"It seems imperative, then, that Amarkia withdraw its fleets from Selindra,"
-Said with the purpose of preventing immediate crisis caused by the Amarki doing something rash. This is a concern anyone who doesn't want to lose the anti-Syndicate campaign should share, because Amarki overreaction is something we've known, the whole time, could result in the Syndicate gaining far more permanent legitimacy in Orion eyes.

"There would be considerable resistance among the citizens of the Federation to such a move,"
-Said regarding a declaration of war. This is an objective fact that should be brought to our attention; would you rather pretend it isn't true? Furthermore, I oppose declaring war on the Syndicate (which is pointless and arguably constitutes recognizing them as a legitimate government, which would make things worse), and I certainly oppose declaring war on the Union, which is our indispensable ally in ever hoping to win this thing. To be clear, I approve of suppressing the Syndicate, fighting it, helping the Union fight it. I want to bring the Amarki in on that fight in some way too. But issuing a declaration of war is the kind of pretentious nonsensical gesture that tends to backfire.

"As a Federation, we hold that our tenets are peace, justice, and truth," replies Stesk. "Ours is not an Empire that believes in collective punishment. We do not go to war with those that only seek to protect themselves, we do not go to war with innocent bystanders."
-Seems unobjectionable to me.

That is a complete, exhaustive list of everything Stesk said in the recent Council session. Which part do you disagree with, exactly? Or are you just making up opinions and attributing them to Stesk?

 

[KleverKil'Vanya]

My Reaction?

Leave nothing but dust and cinders, then we can have your fucking peace.

 

[Simon_Jester]

My Reaction?

Leave nothing but dust and cinders, then we can have your fucking peace.

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Why do we keep getting cross-posts from the Mirror Universe version of this thread?

Also, wait, they have self-appointed trolling deities in the Mirror Universe? Wacky.

 

[Torgamous]

Also, wait, they have self-appointed trolling deities in the Mirror Universe? Wacky.

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What did you think Mirror Q was?

 

[SynchronizedWritersBlock]

-[x] Many of our members are ready to commit forces. Why not bring the Amarki in to a Federation-wide response? Member and Union forces could have roles, and could operate under a Council mandate similar to the Anti-Syndicate Taskforce. Such a force can be developed and used in conjunction with the Union instead of unilaterally by the Amarki. Alternately, add Starfleet assets by letting us draw down elsewhere.

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I made this edit, in line with my rhetoric about Federation leadership and responsibility.

 

[Alastor Mobius Toth]

This is... no. Just... no.

The Amarki are going to be more bloodthirsty and gung-ho than the Aerocommandos and ISSU forces, especially if committed in the numbers (think tens of millions of troops) required to entirely replace the existing security forces of the Orion government. Furthermore, if we invade openly, there will be no Orion government anyone is willing to take orders from... except the Syndicate. It would be a disastrous change in the rules of the conflict. It will not restore stability, it will ensure that Orion space either collapses into anarchy. Or worse yet, becomes an ungovernable mess where we unsuccessfully try to prop up a puppet government no one on the ground cares about, while a guerilla organization organizes the population, probably with outside support, until it is in a position to take over by default as soon as our (tens of millions) of troops leave for any reason.

Right now it's Space Afghanistan circa 2004 with us cast as the US; you're proposing to turn it into Space Afghanistan circa 1984 with us cast as the Soviets.

These are outcomes even worse than the civil war Orion space is now experiencing.

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I'm not actually contesting that argument, but if we're really going to push Amaraki into a situation where they'll actively try to secede, then these sort of arguments are going to be broken out, and I think you underestimate how appealing they might be to Federal members that don't share the high ideals. The Orion has been festering wound on the galaxy for a while now, and I don't doubt for a moment that there will be at least some sort of support for "decisive measures", no matter how terribly they might pan out, in case Federation falters, or worse, actively divides itself.

We can agree on the idea that realistically an occupation of entire Orion cluster will be clusterfuck, politely speaking, but it's going to be a hypothetical argument, because Amaraki hadn't been really part of the operation (except maybe that part where they kept looking for their own people); at least they certainly don't have the same kind of questionable record. We can make argument that "well, you guys just went through a terrible attack and we can't trust you to not be vindictive" but...well, I'll be blunt; it's very Humano-Vulcan patronizing. And though it's a nice argument, it's just that - a nice argument.

I'm actually a little bit surprised that we don't have anyone going "This wouldn't have happened in the first place if the Federation had the balls to deal with Orion in the first place".

But this is of course, worst-case scenario. I'm not arguing that we should annex the entire cluster or anything. Although, if this had been my 4X game session, this would have happened long ago.

 

[Simon_Jester]

What did you think Mirror Q was?

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Well, to be specific, I thought he was "not posting in our thread."

I'm not actually contesting that argument, but if we're really going to push Amaraki into a situation where they'll actively try to secede, then these sort of arguments are going to be broken out, and I think you underestimate how appealing they might be to Federal members that don't share the high ideals. The Orion has been festering wound on the galaxy for a while now, and I don't doubt for a moment that there will be at least some sort of support for "decisive measures", no matter how terribly they might pan out, in case Federation falters, or worse, actively divides itself.

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I think your views on the matter are heavily influenced by a severe misunderstanding about how the Orion Union government actually works, its beliefs, stance, and options for fighting the Syndicate, and our options for fighitng the Syndicate if the Union were taken out of play.

We can agree on the idea that realistically an occupation of entire Orion cluster will be clusterfuck, politely speaking, but it's going to be a hypothetical argument, because Amaraki hadn't been really part of the operation (except maybe that part where they kept looking for their own people); at least they certainly don't have the same kind of questionable record. We can make argument that "well, you guys just went through a terrible attack and we can't trust you to not be vindictive" but...well, I'll be blunt; it's very Humano-Vulcan patronizing. And though it's a nice argument, it's just that - a nice argument.

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The Amarki are inevitably going to be a part of this. I favor that.

But the "this" we want and need is very much NOT a "Federation occupies entire Orion cluster in an attempt to prove that the Cardassians can occupy one planet (Bajor), so we'll up the stakes by occupying twenty!"

Even proposing that tends to split the discussion away from solutions that might actually work without breaking the Federation in the process.

I'm actually a little bit surprised that we don't have anyone going "This wouldn't have happened in the first place if the Federation had the balls to deal with Orion in the first place".

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There probably are people saying that on Amarkia, but realistically they're the ones who want to secede from the Federation and go it alone. They knew what we were before they voluntarily joined us.

But this is of course, worst-case scenario. I'm not arguing that we should annex the entire cluster or anything. Although, if this had been my 4X game session, this would have happened long ago.

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Well, if we do try it, it's going to be the end of the Federation, and for any government that is un-Federation-ish enough to do it, it would be an ongoing disaster area for the next hundred years. So I'm just as glad we're not in that place.

 

[Iron Wolf]

One thing I might write an omake on is pairing Frontier Police units with ISSU units and the Aerocommandos with Amarki, because I think they'd temper each other. I think it might be better if we take less direct action on our own and pair up with the Union in a mentor shop role. Right now it's basically we clean up worlds on our own and the Union government barely holds the line. We need to pass down institutional knowledge and be seen working with them more.

However, this would be a major break with how we've run things this far

 

[Night_stalker]

There probably are people saying that on Amarkia, but realistically they're the ones who want to secede from the Federation and go it alone. They knew what we were before they voluntarily joined us.

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Or people on the rim who get nailed by the Orions.

 

[AKuz]

Wow. Wow.

I wish I had been up earlier.

[X] Madame President, let us consider three dimensions here. The political, the strategic, and the moral.
-[X] The political: Amarkia must act and be seen to act, the current government of the Orion Union must not fall, and the actions of terrorists must not be allowed to magnificently succeed in producing precisely the result they want.
-[X] The strategic: the Federation has been making in-roads against Cardassian-affiliated species everywhere recently. We have achieved successful diplomacy with the Dawiar, the Gretarians, the Yrillians. They are losing the diplomatic war and they desperately need to convert this into a type of war they can win, without being seen as the aggressors.
-[X] The moral: The people of Amarkia deserve justice, and it must be directed against the actual perpetrators and not misdirected against Orion Union forces.
-[X] I believe the political dilemma can be resolved only by direct communication between the Amarkian and Orion Union governments. They must come a politically acceptable solution. I can think of a few suggestions off the top of my head. Perhaps the Orion Union could send an aid caravan to Lironh accompanied by Orion patrol vessels, and accept the assistance of Amarkian vessels in return. Each with their fleet above the other's world. Perhaps the Amarkians can send in their gendarmaries. I don't know; but trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie.
-[X] I believe the strategic situation can be resolved by being open about what is going on here. It may be time to expend some our intelligence assets in order to make the chain of events public. The Syndicate attacks, hoping to provoke a response that justifies a Cardassian-backed coup. It's simple enough that the public of all worlds can understand and terrible enough to shock into not playing along.
-[X] As for the moral situation... I suppose we can count on the good Councillor Stesk to be our conscience there.

There are a few quibbles that I have but in general this seems good.

Though if the Amarki have laws about their citizens serving in foreign armies those should go and if the Union has laws against foreign citizens serving in their armies those should go too.

I do like the part about being open about the links between Cardassia and the syndicate. Let people know that the Syndicate doesn't care about an independent Orion, but for themselves and Cardassia. And yes this does include letting the galaxy know the full details of the attempt to disrupt the Amarki membership. And publish everything we know of the situation on Bajor. Show the Orions their options.

As for Amarkia, this might help change their anger towards the puppetmasters in Cardassia as much as the Syndicate on the ground. This might make a likely war more likely, but it will also increase Amarki enthusiasm for telling Cardassia to fuck off out of the Gabriel expanse.

If we do this right, we can pull everyone together against the Butchers on Cardassia Prime and not against each other.

 

[Void Stalker]

[X] Briefvoice

 

[Night]

One thing I might write an omake on is pairing Frontier Police units with ISSU units and the Aerocommandos with Amarki, because I think they'd temper each other. I think it might be better if we take less direct action on our own and pair up with the Union in a mentor shop role. Right now it's basically we clean up worlds on our own and the Union government barely holds the line. We need to pass down institutional knowledge and be seen working with them more.

However, this would be a major break with how we've run things this far

Click to shrink...

One of the things is the Union really didn't have any units, outside the Aerocommandos, that were suited for the kind of fighting on Duaba. And even the Frontier Police aren't meant for what's going on with Duaba. This is a straight military confrontation clearing entrenched positions. The Orions are making it through on vertical envelopment and close air support, but they're blowing up a lot more buildings and losing more people than the Amarki Gendarmes probably would.

 

[UbeOne]

[x] Plan United We Stand

 

[Steven Kodaly]

[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock

I think unifying our response as a cohesive political entity is key, as everything we do to coordinate the various member governments now will be a dress rehearsal for larger conflicts. Yes, it is going to be a colossal pain; I'd much rather get past any teething issues before we decide to throw down with one of our peers.