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[X] Briefvoice
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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They will be horrified now but, and this is what I think the Syndicate is betting is on, that will change once Amarki marines land on Union planets and start looking for terrorists (which invariably will lead to civilian casualties).
Though you are correct that if we can prevent an escalation now this might be powerful tool to de-legitimise the syndicate as a political faction (which is why I am happy with every option that stops the Amarki from going through with whatever isnane plan/idea they have)
I am not sure where you hail from but while Trump might believe such a thing it is not in fact true. And making a government responsible for the acts of a few extremists set an extremely bad precedent that could easily come back and bite us in our ass.
Gear
Set Moon to Ramming Speed!
We simply can't let Amarki fleet units inside Union space without an agreement with the Union gov. The Amarki Navy is going to do something regardless, so it's best to give them something to do outside of Union Space, like be part of a joint Federation task force to root out Syndicate assets/backers/customers, to help starve the Syndicate inside Union space, and provide information to the Anti-Syndicate task force inside to aid in their task.
Meanwhile, as the new task force is assembling, have emergency negotiations between the Federation, Amarkia, and the Union about allowing some Amarkian investigators inside Union space, to work in conjunction with the Union Gov and the Anti-Syndicate task force, to find the true perpetrators of the bombing. Promise the Union more support and resources to rebuild, or whatever it takes. Expense is less important than speed in reaching a resolution here.
Meanwhile, as the new task force is assembling, have emergency negotiations between the Federation, Amarkia, and the Union about allowing some Amarkian investigators inside Union space, to work in conjunction with the Union Gov and the Anti-Syndicate task force, to find the true perpetrators of the bombing. Promise the Union more support and resources to rebuild, or whatever it takes. Expense is less important than speed in reaching a resolution here.
Why is it acceptable not to involve the Federation at large? Were thousands of Federation citizens were not just murdered? If the Federation does not have a response of their own and limits to managing the Amarki and Union then the entire foundation it is built on becomes weaker. And that is what the Cardasdians are hoping to erode. We play into their hands by not doing something as a Federation. That is why I cannot support Briefvoice's vote.
Night
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Of course if you'd actually read the rest of that post (and the following ones) you'd realize this isn't likely and this has already been addressed, several times.
No, we've been solving criminal matters with ships that happen to have guns. They're not warships; they're not in the process of making war, or only good for that purpose. (This is the second time I've had to explain that distinction in this thread, weirdly.)
The Union has already launched matter/antimatter warheads of its own at one of its own planets in its war against the Syndicate. Any argument that they are not making a serious effort kind of dies when they've expended more raw yield against the Syndicate than the Syndicate did against Amarki. What would the Amarki do, anyways? Photon torpedo Orion planets from orbit harder than the Orions themselves have already done on Duaba? That's not an argument that'll fly in front of the Federation Council.
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I really don't want to make the Union government responsible for that. Or personally think they are responsible.
I just mean that it's slightly less bad than taking up arms against one of our own members over this issue.
Alastor Mobius Toth
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A warhead that hit a supposed target in an uninhabited wasteland. While I hate to be the one to make this kind of argument, you can reason that firing on a bunch of empty mountains with a proton torpedo is a grand gesture, but one that amounts to...what exactly? The Orion Union says it has been a Syndicate base, but was it really? Anyone can torpedo a bunch of wastelands and say "we're totally fighting against our space terrorists, here be craters", which is very convenient when the blast wave would annihilate any evidence.
It is eyerolling yes, but then you have to consider that Union has been really obstructionist with its actions against Amarakia lately, and it is very, very corrupt.
Which is where a second point comes in: the current campaign has pretty much proven that Union is pretty much rotten through. There have been corrupted officers on almost every level. Sure, Union grunts have killed and died in the street fighting, but what has that actually achieved? If anything, Amarakia can make the case that fighting has been effective only because Starfleet is following it every step of the way, providing neccessary capability to a government that would be unable to root out its internal troublemakers on its own.
An Amarakian-Federation invasion of Orion territory could restore stability, remove the clearly bloodthirsty and gung-ho Aerocommando and Hypercorp troops, preventing further massacres, secure Syndicate targets more effectively and have an easier time accessing the sectors of Orion society that are at most risk.
I'm saying "could" of course, because it's a very much "They said-we-said-they-said" argument, but it will have a strong appeal. Not to entire council, but it will certainly split it.
Like, who exactly will stand behind Orions? Vulcans? Some of the Humans? The reminder of the Federation seems ready to take the gloves off; we're hypothetically risking an internal collapse over what essentially is Space Caribbean Somalia.
I beg to disagree.
This is a threat to the Federation as a whole, a potentially very dire one. There is the mere physical threat that has seen a city gutted by a weapon of mass destruction, and there is every reason to suggest that the Syndicate will try it again. How many hundreds of thousands of our citizens have to be immolated before it becomes an emergency for you? How many cities need to be destroyed?
Then there is the threat to the Federation as an idea and an organization. If we do not respond in a sufficient way the Amarki will quit They will leave and attempt to handle matters themselves. And that would be a very bad position for use to be in. We would be forced to choose between allowing the Amarki to attack an affiliate, undermining the confidence and belief in our ideals, that would see our existing affiliates leave and possibly other members too.
Or we would have to fight the Amarki to defend the Union, which would drive the Amarki into the arms of the Cardassians, Which when the ever more certain war with the Cardies comes, would put us in a disastrous position.
There is a clear and present danger to the entirety of the Federation, and we must act swiftly and surely.
The Amarki must be satisfied that we are handling this matter seriously, and the Orions cannot be persecuted for the action of the Syndicate. Making the destruction of the Syndicate a Federation wide priority though member world fleet federalizations, accomplishes this by getting the Amarki into the fight agsint the right targets, and under our direction. It gives us far more resources to extend and pursue our current anti-syndicate campaign. Already handling this within the normal political process is becoming untenable as the cost has mounted to very high levels, this will drastically sap our politcal power and ability to further prosecute the campaign. A state of emergency and a Federation wide effort will get us what we need to end this.
Because the alternatives are a campaign of WMD bombing agsint Federation cities, or total war against a peer power.
And yes declaring war is only symbolic, and for propaganda purposes. But right now I think the Amarkians need that propaganda. They need to know that we feel their pain as well, and that we will all act to seek justice together.
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My rambling thoughts on this:
@SynchronizedWritersBlock, you make some good points. War isn't an entirely appropriate term. The problem is that we don't really have a good word for a warlike action against a non-state actor.
And some of the things you mention as disadvantages seem desirable to me. Defining everyone who still supports the syndicate as an enemy, enabling us to capture them and throw them into something like POW camps and sort things out after the conflict ends seems like a sensible idea to me. Some kind of law against providing support for terrorist groups could probably achieve something similar.
It is difficult to formulate a plan as we don't really know the legal framework.
What I want from a plan:
- We ramp up action against the syndicate within at most two months.
- We can act against anyone who provides material support to the operations of the Syndicate.
- We keep the Orion Union involved and try to work with them as much as possible.
I don't think we can be to calm and mild on this, as the Amarki won't accept that.
@SynchronizedWritersBlock, you make some good points. War isn't an entirely appropriate term. The problem is that we don't really have a good word for a warlike action against a non-state actor.
And some of the things you mention as disadvantages seem desirable to me. Defining everyone who still supports the syndicate as an enemy, enabling us to capture them and throw them into something like POW camps and sort things out after the conflict ends seems like a sensible idea to me. Some kind of law against providing support for terrorist groups could probably achieve something similar.
It is difficult to formulate a plan as we don't really know the legal framework.
What I want from a plan:
- We ramp up action against the syndicate within at most two months.
- We can act against anyone who provides material support to the operations of the Syndicate.
- We keep the Orion Union involved and try to work with them as much as possible.
I don't think we can be to calm and mild on this, as the Amarki won't accept that.
Ultimately we want to avoid any action that could cause a collapse of the Union government. If the Union breaks up into individual planets, as it was before, the Prime Directive will absolutely fuck us as they refuse any intervention and the Syndicate is given ample cover to recover.
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Please stop fearmongering.
There was a security failure. It happens. But we know the Syndicate invested significant effort and actions into this attack-hence why it cost us so dearly. But we will be prepared next time and we have no indication they're going to rapidly repeat this on a larger scale.
Random Member
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The flipside is... are you not outraged? I am. Once is not acceptable. The final casualties are likely in the tens to hundreds of thousands. Federation civilians are dying. The Federation is responsible to ensure that never again, or as best we can. We are not merely responsible to make sure the Amarki don't flip their lid and start invading. We are not merely responsible to ensure the Orions have a legitimate governmeny. We. Are. Responsible. To our citizens. To ensure their safety. This takes priority over all the diplomatic factors, in my opinion.
So forget the Amarki military and the Union government for just a moment and tell me. What should the Federation do to fulfill the government's responsibility to the citizens who were attacked and who could be again?
Only after we answer that question should the Amarki military and the Union be considered.
e: And this is the fundamental flaw in Briefvoice's vote. It doesn't address this one bit. The meat of the matter. Nothing.
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We don't?
They still have considerable resources and they have constantly escalating. They started off with an assassination attempt, and proceeded to repeat. Now they have blown up a city I think it is likely they will try again, especially if we manage to prevent the Amarki from going on a murder rampage into Orion Space. Yes I know we will be prepared and looking now, but I think it is likely they will still try.
And what of further escalation? What happens when their ambitions to inflict pain on us grow. We know they have heavy warp capable warpships, held in reserve. What happens when they decide to kill a world with one?
Come to think of it, they have that captured Orion patroller...
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[X] Briefvoice
They have considerable resources that we are constantly depleting. Their ability to operate on our level has diminished considerably since we began. Yes, they are and remain a danger. But states of emergency are not enacted because of hypothetical attacks. We deal with the damage done here, we put protocols in place to ensure this does not happen again. We do not fly off the handle and request dictatorial powers because of hysteria.
They have considerable resources that we are constantly depleting. Their ability to operate on our level has diminished considerably since we began. Yes, they are and remain a danger. But states of emergency are not enacted because of hypothetical attacks. We deal with the damage done here, we put protocols in place to ensure this does not happen again. We do not fly off the handle and request dictatorial powers because of hysteria.
pbluekan
Somethin's Fucky ...
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[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock
For what it's worth, I think I'm beginning to have a very singular dislike for Stesk. Pacifism is all well and good, but his brand stretches it to the point of self delusion.
Seeking to avoid harm to the innocent and uninvolved is, and should be, paramount; however, that should be balanced with the knowledge that your own people are also the innocent and the uninvolved. At a certain point, you inflict more harm to yourself than wouldn't have ever been inflicted on the other. It doesn't always do to just be able to take a punch.
For what it's worth, I think I'm beginning to have a very singular dislike for Stesk. Pacifism is all well and good, but his brand stretches it to the point of self delusion.
Seeking to avoid harm to the innocent and uninvolved is, and should be, paramount; however, that should be balanced with the knowledge that your own people are also the innocent and the uninvolved. At a certain point, you inflict more harm to yourself than wouldn't have ever been inflicted on the other. It doesn't always do to just be able to take a punch.
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Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
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[X] SynchronizedWritersBlock
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O-kay, but my problem is, see, this isn't likely to accomplish much as a whole, because coordinating all our members would be a fucking nightmare and we'd be dealing with dozens of different organizations with different rules of operation and it'd just turn into a dramatic mess with probably the occasional atrocity.
So the appeal to emotion part of your post does nothing for me because your vote does not accomplish anything. Most of all it doesn't accomplish the responsible to our citizens to ensure their safety part.
Yeah, I'm outraged, but not outraged enough that I want us to act like idiots.
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Tasoli
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I think we should modify Anti slavery act to allow hot pursuit. Amarkia then can put down a blocked around the Orion space and snipe any target they want as long as they can pretend it was a hot pursuit and Union can honestly say Amarkia is not invading them after all they have same right to hot pursuit in Amarkia space -Which they won't use ever but nobody needs to know that-
We should do everything we can to take down the Syndicate, which means working closely with the Orion Union government and sending them forces that they can utilize in places where they realistically can without causing their government to fall and being seen as in invasion. In short, we should be doing... what we are already doing. Oh, I'm sure there are more resources we can add around the edges. Get those Vulcan financial analysts in. More police. Maybe some more ships might help. But the sad fact is, there's nothing fundamentally different it would be useful to do that we aren't already doing.
This is one of the most different situations in politics, where a crisis happens and the public demands that something must be done, but you're already doing everything it would be useful to do. I mean, the Federation has already been engaged in a multi-year effort to bring down the Syndicate. I don't see the case that there is something useful we could have been doing but weren't sufficiently motivated to do so before now. I do see a case that there are non-useful, even counter-productive things that we have refrained from doing, and that we are now being pushed to do anyway.
"Something must be done! This is something, therefore it must be done." A political fallacy it's all too easy to fall into.