Much like the Union is already trusting us to keep units to the rules we set, the Amarki should be able to trust us to advocate for Federation citizens. Their citizens. If the Federation can't function in this capacity, then without that trust, the Amarki are going to leave. The Amarki would only insist on their own operation or their own negotiations if they don't trust the Federation. What does that mean for the Federation? I see it as the beginning of the end. So to me, 1 and 2 are failure states.

The Council is the place where the Amarki and the Union both are present and will both be talking right now. It's the right place to start.
I do have to wonder if we'd be mentally separating the attacked race from the Federation as thoroughly if the bomb had gone off on Earth or Vulcan.
 
It got a little overshadowed by the attack on the Amarki, but they shot a photon torpedo at a Syndicate base to kick off their most recent campaign. Everybody talking about blood and glassing planets, isn't that exactly the sort of thing you were asking for? The Union found a Syndicate base and they blew it the fuck up, no attempt to make any arrests or anything like that. The Union used a photon torpedo before the Syndicate did! Probably they only time they don't do that sort of thing more often is that Syndicate bases are usually in the middle of cities of innocent people.

To many people, seems like they only really got off their asses because we kinda started requesting they actually start enforcing the law like say, they are supposed to. When it seems like the most effective LEO agency has been the warrior cats from outside of Orion space....

That concern is the same if they feel the Union is delaying. Worse, because it seems they trust the Union less. Much less. The councilors are still here in session, aren't they?

Especially since we have idiots who keep saying that oh, the Syndicate should be left alone or shit to that effect.
 
That concern is the same if they feel the Union is delaying. Worse, because it seems they trust the Union less. Much less. The councilors are still here in session, aren't they?
I think we need both an agreement hammered out right now in Council, and an ongoing liaison between the Union and the Amarki (and eventually Caitian) governments. It's kind of frustrating that we don't already have the latter, but we clearly need it. Because tensions between the Amarki and the Union have been building up for a long time, and I suspect tensions between the Amarki and Orions have been building up even longer. More on that if I can get an omake out...

The Syndicate is what decides spillover, not any party we can negotiate with.
Negotiations aren't there to handle the spillover, they're there to handle the response. We need to figure out a way to get the Amarki Confederacy specifically, and the Orion Union specificially, working together rather than just screaming at each other. Otherwise, the Syndicate is going to continue to exploit the tension between the two. It won't be easy, but very little about the anti-Syndicate campaign is going to be easy.

More to the point, the Union is just as likely to put obstructions in the way as the Council is. And the trust isn't there. Much like the Union is already trusting us to keep units to the rules we set, the Amarki should be able to trust us to advocate for Federation citizens. Their citizens. If the Federation can't function in this capacity, then without that trust, the Amarki are going to leave. The Amarki would only insist on their own operation or their own negotiations if they don't trust the Federation. What does that mean for the Federation? I see it as the beginning of the end. So to me, 1 and 2 are failure states.

The Council is the place where the Amarki and the Union both are present and will both be talking right now. It's the right place to start.
I'm fine with it starting there, but I don't want it to finish there. There are going to continue to be incidents involving the Amarki for as long as this campaign goes on. Especially since I strongly suspect that an accelerationist "troll the Amarki into invading, those pretty savages will convince everyone that the Federation is an alien threat" faction is starting to take over the Syndicate.

[On a side note... we may not have done ourselves a favor by snagging so many ranking senior Syndicate leaders, it means the new ones are young and hungry and radicalized compared to the older 'Vita Corleone' types who presumably ran the Syndicate before we started shooting at it.]

In any case, what with the inevitably high number of incidents that threaten to drag the Amarki more aggressively into Orion space, I think we need ongoing connections between the Confederacy and the Union in addition to the Federation acting in the role that you desire. Because they are literally on the edge of shooting at each other, and this may very well happen again, especially if the Syndicate realizes how dangerously close this first huge terrorist attack in Amarki space has come to blowing the Federation apart.

This?

Timeline:

Season 1: Biophage. Climax: Kadesh Orbit
Season 2: Hello, Cardassia, Amarki Ratification. Catian/Dawiar war. Climax: Nash's loop, Endless Eight style, but with only 3 episodes.
Season 3: Cardassian Shenanigans continue. Climax: Grey October
Season 4: Now. Midseason wham episode: This.
It's not how I've been doing it in my "Five Years" omakes I did some time ago. Among other things because I'm not a fan of the idea of cramming the first seven (or some suggested, ten) years of the game's events into a mere two seasons.

I've got:

Season 1: "Boldly Going," events that predate the outbreak of the Biophage Crisis, plus events that in our game happened while it was unfolding but before the state of emergency was declared.

Season 2: "The Beast," dominated by the buildup to the Biophage arc, starting with the Ulith III colony investigation and the Cheron bombing and continuing from there. Ends at Kadesh.

Season 3: "Borderlands," the 'wild west' period of our confrontation with Cardassia, which is when we meet the Apiata and Indorions, and ends with Nash's time loop.

Season 4: Jokingly called it "The Spatial Cold War," covering the shift in focus to the proxy conflict involving the Sydraxians, Lecarre, and Dawiar. Had a weak finale ending the Dawiar-Caitian War due to a screwup in the way casting and script was handled.

Season 5: No title for the season. Began with the Courageous bombing, Kadak-Tor was the two-parter in the middle that covered the Grey October incident, and presumably ended with a finale in early 2311 foreshadowing Kahurangi's retirement and Uhura settling in in command of the anti-Syndicate task force, plus Nash's transition off the Enterprise.

Season 6: Most of 2311, and 2312, including the present. The antimatter bombing of Amarkia's capital is a 'wham' all right, but it starts off the tense series of episodes culminating in the series finale.
_________________________

There are obvious advantages and disadvantages to my setup, among other things that it seems unlikely that most actors will want to keep playing the same characters for more than five to eight years, while we're going to keep having some of the same characters for a lot longer than 15-20 years in some cases. On the other hand, recasting actors is certainly possible, especially as characters age- and one advantage of more seasons is that characters can age a bit more believably. We can bring back a callow young officer who was an extra in a Biophage episode in 2002 as a polished starship captain in 2009 and have it work better.

The network needed another episode, since one was shuffled to the next season because plot.
Also, Headcanon.
How does one quarterly event get three episodes when you're cramming like four years into each season?
 
To many people, seems like they only really got off their asses because we kinda started requesting they actually start enforcing the law like say, they are supposed to. When it seems like the most effective LEO agency has been the warrior cats from outside of Orion space....
That's because you're getting detailed reports on literally everything the Caitians do, and the Caitians are operating on frontier planets with small populations, where the Syndicate corruption may be serious, but it's also relatively small and relatively easy to uproot.

The Orions are duking it out with the Syndicate on the most populous and most corrupt Orion worlds, where the Syndicate has its own armies of foot soldiers willing to fight for it, and where the largest urban areas with the highest potential for collateral damage are found. Plus, they don't have the luxury of bringing in an army of aliens who have nothing personal against the Syndicate. They have to rely on troops who may well have Syndicate spies among their ranks, who have probably suffered direct consequences from the Syndicate's terrorism, know others who have, or fear those consequences themselves.

We can, in theory, pull up stakes and leave at any time. Our troops can return to safe homes and safe families if they do. The Orion government and its troops can't do that; if they lose this war against the Syndicate, they die, and it's very possible their families die too. Plus, they're fighting in the thickest, most violently contested areas in the entire region, where the Syndicate has the greatest concentration of manpower and resources.

So yes, they're having a harder time maintaining clean, precise, elegant rules of engagement. And their troops sometimes run off the leash and break discipline, which I will note has resulted in executions among the Union officers responsible from what I recall.

Civil wars are ugly. If you blame the government forces and call them 'incompetent' because of the ugliness, you're missing something important.

And bluntly, it doesn't matter if they're incompetent (they're not), because even if they were, they are literally our only hope. We cannot remove them and put a puppet government in their place, without losing this campaign. We can't allow them to be overthrown, without losing this campaign. The current Orion Union government is the only government of Orions that has enough legitimacy to invite us in the first place, and the only government that can keep working with us. Anything that replaces them will either be illegitimate in most Orions' eyes (in which case the Syndicate wins by default and we've got one foot trapped in an ongoing bloody suppression campaign for decades), or actively pro-Syndicate or pro-Cardassian (in which case the Syndicate wins and we lose, hard)

Especially since we have idiots who keep saying that oh, the Syndicate should be left alone or shit to that effect.
Who? Be specific.
 
So the ep would probably air between '05 and '07...

Anyone else here remember the fan response to the Xindi arc? Cus I suspect there'd be similar factors at play in our fanbase right now.
 
Back and checking in. I think the thing to remember here is that this is just some advice. A nudge. We're talking to the President in private. No one else is listening to this conversation, and it's okay to have some real talk and say that what we're afraid of and how we think the President can lead the Federation out of this situation. And in the end, it'll still be on her and not us.

So it's important to limit this to one or two big ideas. It's not a plan, or even a policy proposal. Just a "this might be the direction to take".
 
Exactly what has Stesk said that you find objectionable? Is he supposed just not say anything? Let's look at what he actually said:

"It seems imperative, then, that Amarkia withdraw its fleets from Selindra,"
-Said with the purpose of preventing immediate crisis caused by the Amarki doing something rash. This is a concern anyone who doesn't want to lose the anti-Syndicate campaign should share, because Amarki overreaction is something we've known, the whole time, could result in the Syndicate gaining far more permanent legitimacy in Orion eyes.

"There would be considerable resistance among the citizens of the Federation to such a move,"
-Said regarding a declaration of war. This is an objective fact that should be brought to our attention; would you rather pretend it isn't true? Furthermore, I oppose declaring war on the Syndicate (which is pointless and arguably constitutes recognizing them as a legitimate government, which would make things worse), and I certainly oppose declaring war on the Union, which is our indispensable ally in ever hoping to win this thing. To be clear, I approve of suppressing the Syndicate, fighting it, helping the Union fight it. I want to bring the Amarki in on that fight in some way too. But issuing a declaration of war is the kind of pretentious nonsensical gesture that tends to backfire.

"As a Federation, we hold that our tenets are peace, justice, and truth," replies Stesk. "Ours is not an Empire that believes in collective punishment. We do not go to war with those that only seek to protect themselves, we do not go to war with innocent bystanders."
-Seems unobjectionable to me.

That is a complete, exhaustive list of everything Stesk said in the recent Council session. Which part do you disagree with, exactly? Or are you just making up opinions and attributing them to Stesk?

In advance, sorry but the RPer in me is stretching his legs a bit here.

I never said anything about just the most recent council session. I've had issues with Stesk for a while.

His statements, taken individually and without context to the underlying situation, are true, unobjectionable, and otherwise have my support. As with the above "Ours is not an empire that [...]" There is nothing to dislike here and it is what makes the Federation good and great.

My point of dislike is that he is maintains a hardline, inflexible position. Indeed, we have seen statements like the ones above, from Stesk, in nearly every crisis, regardless of the issue at hand. The only time we have seen him flex and bend with the political and situational tide is when the biophage presented an immediate existential crisis.

Our empire is most certainly not an empire that believes in collective punishment, but by the same token it is not a place where such acts as we are dealing with should go without due justice. From what I've gathered, Stesk's brand of justice tends to be the "slap on the wrist and sanction" kind. The kind I disagree with.

In short, it is not his pacifism I dislike, but his inflexibility.

It also doesn't help that he reminds me of the world leaders leading up to WW2. "Peace for our time" and all that.

Please keep in mind, this opinion is partially based on the character that has developed in my mind. As such he may differ from the character you've all made up.
 
Quick heads up - out with the wife again, but if you have questions that need answering, lemme know.

Don't be silly about asking things that aren't IC of course, or too open ended.
Are the Union and the Amarki talking? At all?
Does the current Anti-Syndicate Taskforce have useful Union liaisons or attaches?
Do the delegates or councillors who will be in attendance at the emergency session have power to negotiate on behalf of the Union? On behalf of the Confederacy?
What agreements have the Amarki signed with membership pertaining to use of member fleets?
Do we think the Council will be amending or intending to amend the legislation? If so, will we have an opportunity to spend our influence that we bought last Snakepit?
 
Hm. True to form, I've decided to resolve my uncertainty about whether to vote for Briefvoice's plan or SynchronizedWritersBlock's plan by voting for one of my own, something that probably can't win but that feels more right to me.

Nash's Loop has its most direct relative as a single-episode story. And a damn good one, at that.
Given the scope and quality of AKuz's Nash Tries Again, I have always pictured it as a two-parter. But there is room for legitimate disagreement. Anyway, in my own version of the 'show' chronology it was the obvious place to end Season Three. Notably, after the failed attack on Enterprise the Cardassians stopped confronting us nearly as directly, and we pulled the Explorer Corps away from the border with Cardassia in order to deal with the Dawiar situation. This represented a fairly significant change of pace in the conflict, and I considered it a good place to put the season transition.

[Note that I've taken SOME artistic license with the timeline, simply because a lot of the things that have happened fit together more artistically if they're shifted around a bit in time.]



So basically, I'm taking Briefvoice's text, removing the reference to Orion ships in Amarki space (which I deem unlikely to help), and including reference to the need for the Council to resolve the immediate crisis and mediate relations between the Amarki and the Orions in the long run. Also tweaked a few spellings that were bothering me, and added a few clauses that I thought might be relevant. [EDIT: Further addition to the last paragraph at ClawClawBite's suggestion] [EDIT 2: Minor revisions to wording]

[X] Madame President, let us consider three dimensions here. The political, the strategic, and the moral.
-[X] The political: Amarkia must act and be seen to act, the current government of the Orion Union must not fall, and the actions of terrorists must not be allowed to magnificently succeed in producing precisely the result they want. The strategic: the Federation has been making in-roads against Cardassian-affiliated species everywhere recently. We have achieved successful diplomacy with the Dawiar, the Gretarians, the Yrillians. They are losing the diplomatic war and they desperately need to convert this into a type of war they can win, without being seen as the aggressors. The moral: The people of Amarkia deserve justice, and it must be directed against the actual perpetrators and not misdirected against Orion Union forces.
-[X] The Federation should commit to doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate. The Council is going to need to solve the short-term crisis before us by promising action to the Amarki, restraint to the Orions, and somehow managing to deliver on both promises. But that leaves the long term problem. The Amarki are going to keep pushing for more action; they've suffered too much from the Syndicate. The Syndicate is going to keep provoking the Amarki; they want an invasion to raise support for themselves. The Union is going to keep resisting Amarki wishes; they have to maintain the perception of their power to stand up to outsiders. This is a three sided problem, and I believe it can be resolved only by direct communication between the Amarki and Orion Union governments. They need a politically acceptable agreement about how to work together against the Syndicate, instead of working against each other. I can think of a few suggestions off the top of my head. Perhaps the Orion Union could send an aid caravan to Lironh, and accept the assistance of Amarkian vessels against the Syndicate in return. Perhaps the Amarkians can send in their gendarmes. I don't know; but trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie. On top of our own efforts coming in from outside the region, we should try to mediate a positive working relationship between the two species, to stop the Syndicate and present a unified front against Cardassian efforts to break the Federation up.
-[X] That brings us to the overall strategic situation, which I think can be resolved by being open about what is going on here. It may be time to expend some our intelligence assets in order to make the chain of events public. The Syndicate attacks, hoping to provoke a response that justifies a Cardassian-backed coup. It's simple enough that the public of all worlds can understand and terrible enough to shock into not playing along, especially in the wake of the Cardassian coup on Bajor.
-[X] As for the moral situation... I suppose we can count on the good Councillor Stesk to be our conscience there. As far as practical issues go, the most urgent thing to do is send aid and ships to help deal with the recovery and stabilize the situation on the ground. I've already sent orders to our available hospital and engineering ships to make best speed for the area. Starfleet stands ready to assist a strong civilian disaster relief mission, which is what I recommend. We need to make clear that while we want justice, support for the victims is just as important, and that we consider this a criminal act. "
 
Last edited:
Okay, sure, I like @Simon_Jester's tweaks. That's what I was hoping, that someone would take my vote and massage it a little.

[X] Madame President, let us consider three dimensions here. The political, the strategic, and the moral.
-[X] The political: Amarkia must act and be seen to act, the current government of the Orion Union must not fall, and the actions of terrorists must not be allowed to magnificently succeed in producing precisely the result they want. The strategic: the Federation has been making in-roads against Cardassian-affiliated species everywhere recently. We have achieved successful diplomacy with the Dawiar, the Gretarians, the Yrillians. They are losing the diplomatic war and they desperately need to convert this into a type of war they can win, without being seen as the aggressors. The moral: The people of Amarkia deserve justice, and it must be directed against the actual perpetrators and not misdirected against Orion Union forces.
-[X] The Federation should commit to doing everything in its power to end this crisis and defeat the Syndicate. The Council is going to need to solve the short-term crisis before us by promising action to the Amarki, restraint to the Orions, and somehow managing to deliver on both promises. But that leaves the long term problem. The Amarki are going to keep pushing for more action, because they have suffered more harm at Syndicate hands than any other non-Orions. The Syndicate is going to keep provoking the Amarki, because they want an invasion of hostile foreigners to drive ordinary Orions into the Syndicate's camp. The Union is going to keep resisting Amarki wishes, because they have to maintain the perception of their sovereignty and power to stand up to outsiders. This is a three sided problem, and I believe it can be resolved only by direct communication between the Amarki and Orion Union governments. They must come a politically acceptable agreement about how to work together against the Syndicate, instead of working against each other. I can think of a few suggestions off the top of my head. Perhaps the Orion Union could send an aid caravan to Lironh, and accept the assistance of Amarkian vessels against the Syndicate in return. Perhaps the Amarkians can send in their gendarmes. I don't know; but trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie. On top of our own efforts coming in from outside the region, we need to mediate a positive working relationship between the two species, to stop the Syndicate and present a unified front against Cardassian efforts to break the Federation up.
-[X] That brings us to the overall strategic situation, which I think can be resolved by being open about what is going on here. It may be time to expend some our intelligence assets in order to make the chain of events public. The Syndicate attacks, hoping to provoke a response that justifies a Cardassian-backed coup. It's simple enough that the public of all worlds can understand and terrible enough to shock into not playing along, especially in the wake of the Cardassian coup on Bajor.
-[X] As for the moral situation... I suppose we can count on the good Councillor Stesk to be our conscience there. As far as practical issues go, the most urgent thing to do is send aid and ships to help deal with the recovery and stabilize the situation on the ground. I've already sent orders to our available hospital and engineering ships to make best speed for the area. Starfleet stands ready to assist a strong civilian disaster relief mission, which is what I recommend. We need to make clear that while we want justice, support for the victims is just as important, and that we consider this a criminal act. "
 
Last edited:
...Wow I'm kind of flattered.

Why not route things through the Council? Why not attempt an immediate Federation-level response? I have yet to receive satisfactory answers to these points.
Because we can't afford to have to call an emergency Council meeting every single time something comes up that would cause friction between the Amarki and the Union. There has to be a liaison between the two regional governments. If there'd already been one in place since, oh, 2310, the slave raid and slave auction issue would probably have been resolved a lot more amicably.

It's even remotely possible that this attack might never have happened, because we might not have had the Amarki insist on keeping all the high value prisoners themselves in one place where they could be blown up by one bomb.

Amarki fighting assets operating in Orion space have to be routed through the Council by Federation law. Any permanent Amarki participants in the anti-Syndicate campaign have to be part of Uhura's task force, which coordinates with the Union authorities, likewise. But there are going to be issues and there is going to be friction resulting from the Syndicate's ongoing actions, and they are very likely to keep trying to troll the Amarki into attacking the Union in an attempt to get at the Syndicate, since that is such an obvious way for the Syndicate to 'win.' We're not going to be able to do this over and over every time that happens, unless there is already a permanent liaison and working connection between the Amarki and the Union in place, with Federation diplomats to help mediate disputes.

The Council is necessary, and working through the Council is necessary, but in the long term the Council's actions are not sufficient unless there are local initiatives to help fill in the gaps between the Council's actions and resolutions.
 
Why not route things through the Council? Why not attempt an immediate Federation-level response? I have yet to receive satisfactory answers to these points.

SWB, I can't do anything about whether you find the answers satisfactory or not. We may just be unable to meet minds on this. However the core reason for me is the one that has been in my vote from the beginning, "trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie". I believe that the more opinions and competing interests you pull in on a negotiation, the harder it gets. Better to allow the two parties with the very highest stakes in the matter to talk together and then tell the rest of the Federation what we can do to help.
 
...Wow I'm kind of flattered.

Because we can't afford to have to call an emergency Council meeting every single time something comes up that would cause friction between the Amarki and the Union. There has to be a liaison between the two regional governments. If there'd already been one in place since, oh, 2310, the slave raid and slave auction issue would probably have been resolved a lot more amicably.

It's even remotely possible that this attack might never have happened, because we might not have had the Amarki insist on keeping all the high value prisoners themselves in one place where they could be blown up by one bomb.

Amarki fighting assets operating in Orion space have to be routed through the Council by Federation law. Any permanent Amarki participants in the anti-Syndicate campaign have to be part of Uhura's task force, which coordinates with the Union authorities, likewise. But there are going to be issues and there is going to be friction resulting from the Syndicate's ongoing actions, and they are very likely to keep trying to troll the Amarki into attacking the Union in an attempt to get at the Syndicate, since that is such an obvious way for the Syndicate to 'win.' We're not going to be able to do this over and over every time that happens, unless there is already a permanent liaison and working connection between the Amarki and the Union in place, with Federation diplomats to help mediate disputes.

The Council is necessary, and working through the Council is necessary, but in the long term the Council's actions are not sufficient unless there are local initiatives to help fill in the gaps between the Council's actions and resolutions.

These are all things that I'm already advocating for, though! The Federation Council can mandate these things and their objectives, and then the specifics happen later through the workings of all the administrative branches. Hammering out a separate agreement between the Amarki and Union doesn't help us if the Syndicate goes after the Caitians next. Hammering out an agreement between the Union and the entire Federation including the Amarki does. The idea of a mediated agreement trying to keep fingers out of the pie is nonsense. We need the fingers in the pie or else the other two parties are going to be busy trying to chop each others' fingers off. Action on the Federation-level is the only thing both parties are going to trust.

SWB, I can't do anything about whether you find the answers satisfactory or not. We may just be unable to meet minds on this. However the core reason for me is the one that has been in my vote from the beginning, "trying to route everything through the Federation Council puts too many fingers in the pie". I believe that the more opinions and competing interests you pull in on a negotiation, the harder it gets. Better to allow the two parties with the very highest stakes in the matter to talk together and then tell the rest of the Federation what we can do to help.

You're not seeing the forest for the trees.

because it'll take a month to fully mobilize all federation assets, and having them trickle in invites defeat in detail

We moved assets in full last time. No one trickled in anything.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top