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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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[X] Plan Steady Goings
-[X] Generic Team 3 : Hospital Ship Research Project
-[X] Daystorm Institute : 2330s Colony Cores
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy : 2310s Message Networking

[X] [BOOST] Office of Naval Architecture, Federation Broadcast Service

[X] [VSA] Vulcan Science Academy : 2320s Geological Sensors
 
Question, while we're on the subject. What research team or teams would it be useful to order in Snakepit or with new members? Do we need an escort team, for example? Are we counting on an awesome escort team from the Apiata?


Simon_Jester said:
I suppose we don't know what the balanced system we'll hopefully get out of all this when the smoke clears is going to look like. But I would fondly hope we can at least predict vaguely what level of ship performance will be possible for designs with 2310-era tech. If only because for game balance reasons the answer HAS to look like "similar to your 2300-era designs, but with slightly better stats."
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You suggested the results of ruthless optimizing. My point is that when you do that you get things that won't be allowed. Like, we should expect an improvement on the Centaur-A, right? Well, if someone produces a C4 S3 H3 L4 P3 D4 ship, that's obvious incremental improvement, and it's a step in the direction of the Connie-B and Rennie. If then I go in and ruthlessly optimize to get us C4 S4 H3 L5 P4 D4 for less SR and less crew, obviously the design is better while still being an incremental improvement. But am I just finding places the design process shouldn't allow? Or is it within expectations that some designers will have outwardly superior designs at the same tech level, within reason? I don't think we want to get into the line-drawing here.

What I'm saying is, relying on optimization to produce designs that are simply better is not really the best plan. It's better to argue from the idea of what each tech level should look like. And the incremental improvement that we should expect from 2310s tech doesn't really support an escort that can do consistently good event response. It's natural that on the other hand, ships with more mass should have a greater range of capability.
 
So on a slightly more serious (within the context of the game) topic:

As per the Constitution of the United Federation of Planets:
For consideration in decision-making, UFP Starfleet is formally advised that the Federation considers there to be a High Threat of a State of War being recognised between the Federation and the Cardassians within the next five years.
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That is what we were told at the conclusion of the Apinae Foxtrot Part 4. I think we ought to take that seriously and actually alter our decision-making accordingly. 5 years isn't a long time, but it is enough to build some more of our most cost-effective firepower... Miranda-A Escorts. Accordingly, I'd like to propose a build schedule that starts 3 new Miranda-A ships in 2313.Q1. All of them in the Vulcan shipyard so they can be parallel constructions using Chen's bonus. The net effect of this will be pushing back some of our Miranda refits and staggering our Reconnaissance production more. The new Mirandas would be finished by 2314.Q3, very likely in time to be of help in this coming war.

Again, I know people generally prefer Centaur-As, but I think we need to shift over to production for a war, at least to some extent. It also keeps too many of our existing Mirandas from being tied up in refit at any one time.



Ships/refits started under this plan:
2313 - Starting 2 Excelsiors, 3 Miranda-As, 2 Miranda refits (these replacing 2 Mirandas coming out of refit, so the total amount in service stays the same)
2314 - Starting 4 Renaissance, 3 Miranda refits (2 of these replace Mirandas coming out of service)
2315 - Starting Ambassador Prototype, 2 Excelsiors, 2 Renaissance, 3 Miranda refits, 1 Constellation refit (could easily delay refits if war is imminent)
 
I'm not interested in building more Mirandas. If we're not building Centaurs, we should either find something else to build/refit, or just let those beths go unused temporarily.
 
I agree with building more Mirandas. Now that we're getting to the point we have an Explorer or Modern Cruiser in every sector, I'm less worried about Miranda's being our only response to events. In that case, saving some resources to get warships quickly seems smart to me.
 
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Derek58 said:
I'm not interested in building more Mirandas. If we're not building Centaurs, we should either find something else to build/refit, or just let those beths go unused temporarily.
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Purely for the sake of an upcoming war that we were specifically warned about. You're still not willing to build them? Having 9 more combat two years from now could be just in time to throw them into Cardassian teeth. Them being cheaper than Centaurs means we can build more of them.

I mean, if this... a situation where we have a high probability of a war within a specific timeframe in the near future, is not enough to get anyone to build some combat-focused escorts, I guess nothing will.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Purely for the sake of an upcoming war that we were specifically warned about. You're still not willing to build them? Having 9 more combat two years from now could be just in time to throw them into Cardassian teeth. Them being cheaper than Centaurs means we can build more of them.

I mean, if this... a situation were we have a high probability of a war within a specific timeframe in the near future, is not enough to get anyone to build some combat-focused escorts, I guess nothing will.
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That's right. I'm willing to take the small risk of not building them and either use the resources to build something else or save them.
 
SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
Question, while we're on the subject. What research team or teams would it be useful to order in Snakepit or with new members? Do we need an escort team, for example? Are we counting on an awesome escort team from the Apiata?
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@AlphaDelta has been lobbying for a second weapons team for a while now. Other than that minerals, medical and shields might be worth consideration, as well as offensive or defensive doctrine paired with another specialization that will still be useful after the chosen doctrine tree is completed. After that perhaps starbase construction or yet more teams for some of those useful categories we already have multiple teams for.
 
Every ship we have means more patrols we can safely run, more counterattacks we can safely launch, and more losses we can sustain. I was hoping we could make it to the mid 2320's before war broke out, but that seems unlikely. Getting as much production as possible out of the next few years should be our top priority.
 
@Briefvoice I take it we don't have the resources to do two or three Centaur-As then?

If we could somehow do a pair of Centaurs and a pair of Mirandas... budget problems aside though that would mean holding off on two Miranda refits and delaying the renissence if I'm reading the spreadsheet right, which seems counterproductive.

EDIT: however you would get the Big Centaur lobby onside so that's nice :D
 
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So how many Centaur-As could be afford instead of Miranda-As?

I'd rather 2 Centaur-As over 3 Miranda-As due to flexibility for future use, for a small loss in combat, but if it was only 1 Centaur-A that we can afford, the extra ships matter more. Can we push more refits faster with our current deployment expectations?
 
Iron Wolf said:
Expansionists should just be a friendly biophage sweeping across a representation of the galaxy. EDIT: or a humanoid hand pouring rootbeer on the galaxy!

BTW who did the 'serious' ones? I quite like those ones too obviously, particularly the Hawks.

(I like to imagine each party uses both and when they're meming the less serious logo shows up, because that's a feature on future twitter: enable sarcasm/jk mode)
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Late reply but I did!



Drew them up pre-Rigellian ratification though, so the Mercantile Faction isn't represented yet.
 
Nervos Belli said:
Every ship we have means more patrols we can safely run, more counterattacks we can safely launch, and more losses we can sustain. I was hoping we could make it to the mid 2320's before war broke out, but that seems unlikely. Getting as much production as possible out of the next few years should be our top priority.
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@OneirosTheWriter
Would it be possible to use the fact we have an imminent threat of war with a peer power to get a war emergency escort quickly designed and approved for production.
I dont mean the Miranda A, but something that can be built quickly in a year to 18 months. It would have to be based on either the Centaur or the Miranda hull but would be cheaper and perhaps less P and S. They would have reduced reliability, little upgrade potential, and lower projected service lifetimes.
Maybe such a project would require a PP spend at the next snakepit and would mean a small millitarization gain.
 
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Iron Wolf said:
@Briefvoice I take it we don't have the resources to do two or three Centaur-As then?

If we could somehow do a pair of Centaurs and a pair of Mirandas... budget problems aside though that would mean holding off on two Miranda refits and delaying the renissence if I'm reading the spreadsheet right, which seems counterproductive.

EDIT: however you would get the Big Centaur lobby onside so that's nice :D
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We could start 3 Centaur-As in 2313 if we either started no Miranda refits or gave up on starting one of the Excelsiors. This would also have a knock-on effect of more severely constraining our 2315 production.

I mean, there's a lot of ways to approach this. But the real question is if people are willing to build Miranda-As for the war or not. Hell, some of them will probably (almost certainly) be destroyed, so you have to worry less about them polluting the peacetime fleet a decade from now.

Ato said:
@OneirosTheWriter
Would it be possible to use the fact we have an imminent threat of war with a peer power to get a war emergency escort quickly designed and approved for production.
I dont mean the Miranda A, but something that can be built quickly in a year to 18 months. It would have to be based on either the Centaur or the Miranda hull but would be cheaper and perhaps less P and S. They would have reduced reliability, little upgrade potential, and lower projected service lifetimes.
Maybe such a project would require a PP spend at the next snakepit and would mean a small millitarization gain.
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You think you can get people in this thread to vote for that in the first place? FYI, with Chen we can already build escorts in 18 months.
 
Briefvoice said:
We could start 3 Centaur-As in 2313 if we either started no Miranda refits or gave up on starting one of the Excelsiors. This would also have a knock-on effect of more severely constraining our 2315 production.

I mean, there's a lot of ways to approach this. But the real question is if people are willing to build Miranda-As for the war or not. Hell, some of them will probably (almost certainly) be destroyed, so you have to worry less about them polluting the peacetime fleet a decade from now.



You think you can get people in this thread to vote for that in the first place? FYI, with Chen we can already build escorts in 18 months.
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Okay, forgot about the bonus. So how about if we could build them in a year, maybe even less with the bonus.
And also cheaper in resorces and crew.

If we had the option to for this we wouldn't have to worry about building the Miranda A doom fleet in advance. And instead could crash build a lot of cheap escorts very quickly and cheaply when events looked to be about to go very bad. Although we might have have to scrap them after the war.
 
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Briefvoice said:
Purely for the sake of an upcoming war that we were specifically warned about. You're still not willing to build them? Having 9 more combat two years from now could be just in time to throw them into Cardassian teeth. Them being cheaper than Centaurs means we can build more of them.

I mean, if this... a situation where we have a high probability of a war within a specific timeframe in the near future, is not enough to get anyone to build some combat-focused escorts, I guess nothing will.
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The thing is that with their stats they are little more than cannon fodder in any conflict and thus of limited use in a war with a peer (and not even that useful when it comes to normal garrisoning duties). Using them in war would most likely result in significant losses which are very likely to have immensely negative effects on morale and the political stage. Centaurs are at least a bit more study /capable and thus well worth the extra effort + it is not like we are in that a desperate need for ships.
 
I am against egg shell ships.

We are the Federation. All of our ships should be capable of taking on negative space wedgies.

That means we have strong hulls and shields, enough D to run, and sufficient combat and science.
 
Erandil said:
The thing is that with their stats they are little more than cannon fodder in any conflict and thus of limited use in a war with a peer (and not even that useful when it comes to normal garrisoning duties). Using them in war would most likely result in significant losses which are very likely to have immensely negative effects on morale and the political stage. Centaurs are at least a bit more study /capable and thus well worth the extra effort + it is not like we are in that a desperate need for ships.
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Miranda-A Now-Now [277m, 655k t]
C3 S2 H2 L3 P1 D2
Cost[60br, 45sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-1]
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Centaur-A 2308-Now [315m 800k t]
C3 S3 H2 L3 P3 D3
Cost[80br, 70sr, 2 years], Crew [O-1, E-2, T-2]
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Centaurs are not more sturdy. Combat-wise they are exactly equal*, and the Mirandas are cheaper to build and require less crew. Admittedly less good for peacetime, but equal in war.

Why do you assume that using them in wartime would result in significant losses? They have 2 hull and 3 shields. That's not cruiser level durability, but they don't explode when you poke them. Each Miranda-A can take 4 hits before it's in danger of being destroyed. Likely most battles result in them being damaged rather than destroyed.

*I guess higher Defense might make Centaurs slightly better at evasion, but I doubt we'll notice the difference.

AlphaDelta said:
I am against egg shell ships.

We are the Federation. All of our ships should be capable of taking on negative space wedgies.

That means we have strong hulls and shields, enough D to run, and sufficient combat and science.
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A Centaur-A's Science 3 is only 1 better than a Miranda-A's Science 2. Presence is the main area where the Miranda-A is really inferior. And the Miranda-A is not an eggshell ship. The whole point of the "A" version is that it's singificantly more durable.

@SynchronizedWritersBlock I rest my case. You think you're ever going to get the thread to vote for a combat escort after this response?
 
AlphaDelta said:
I am against egg shell ships.
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The Miranda-A, unlike the original Miranda, is not an egg shell design. With C3, H2, L3 it is actually slightly more balanced between offense and defense than the C6, H4, L5 Excelsior, and way more cost-effective.

That being said, it is admittedly a ship that isn't good for much else other than blowing stuff up. Perhaps the one design we have that could almost be called a warship.
 
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Briefvoice said:
@SynchronizedWritersBlock I rest my case. You think you're ever going to get the thread to vote for a combat escort after this response?
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There's about even posters for and against, judging by this response, and there's going to be some lag between the detractors and proponents because just saying "yeah I agree" isn't as enticing as telling someone on the internet that they're wrong.

We still aren't going to know if a vote for more Mirandas will pass until it actually comes to a vote, but if your case needs a rest now it's just a very lazy case.
 
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