Event analysis indicates that planets issue distress calls as often as ships do. So you aren't going to filter out either risky combat (usually a surprise!) or diplomatic situations successfully through ROE.
To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)
- Thread starter OneirosTheWriter
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Event analysis indicates that planets issue distress calls as often as ships do. So you aren't going to filter out either risky combat (usually a surprise!) or diplomatic situations successfully through ROE.
aledeth
The Flesh is Weak
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[X] Plan Steady Goings
-[X] Generic Team 3 : Hospital Ship Research Project
-[X] Daystorm Institute : 2330s Colony Cores
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy : 2310s Message Networking
[X] [BOOST] Office of Naval Architecture, Admiral Lathriss
[X] [VSA] Vulcan Science Academy : 2320s Targeting Sensors
-[X] Generic Team 3 : Hospital Ship Research Project
-[X] Daystorm Institute : 2330s Colony Cores
-[X] Starfleet Science Academy : 2310s Message Networking
[X] [BOOST] Office of Naval Architecture, Admiral Lathriss
[X] [VSA] Vulcan Science Academy : 2320s Targeting Sensors
- Location
- Australia
Research vote will close when I get home tonight (I am tired).
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Miranda-As are our most cost-effective fighting vessels. Crewman for crewman, and pound for pound of resources, they put more firepower on the frontlines than anything else we have.
If it would make sense for us to build Defiants in the runup to a Dominion War, it makes sense for us to build Miranda-As right now.
So to be clear, you are saying it is literally never time to build combat-optimized escorts in order to prepare for an incoming war?
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
Something's still off about the mechanics then.
If a Hasque or other modern escort - or heck let's go up to a Jaldun - is attacking a freighter and the only ship in range that respond to the distress call is an Oberth, is that Oberth really going to respond and just end up as another casualty? That doesn't make sense to me.
It would make more sense if the Oberth stayed out of range and tried to analyze where the enemy came and where the enemy went after the freighter is destroyed or captured.
Theunderbolt
"Prepare for trouble..."
- Location
- USoA
"Stayed out of range and tried to analyze where the enemy came and where the enemy went after the freighter is destroyed or captured." still sounds like a response of some sort to me, and probably one where "out of range" isn't so easy to judge and requires a check.
Forgothrax
Not Going Gently
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One word: Veterancy. An Elite M-A will beat the shit out of a Renny or Niagara. All the reason required to upgrade the hell out of them.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
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Well if events can have such nuance per ship role and play out that way, and that "out of range" check is one that an Oberth can reasonably pass, than that's fine, and in fact could be a net positive despite the risk.
I'm sensing I've hit a raw nerve from the design thread.
I'm sensing I've hit a raw nerve from the design thread.
It's an opinion I've written in this thread for far longer than I even participated in the design thread so no, not really.
Starfleet is obligated to respond to distress calls, so yes, it really is going to respond. Whether it avoids becoming a casualty likely depends on checks.
But just as an example, look at what happened with the ambush in the SBZ. If a Miranda or Oberth had flown into that situation instead of an Excelsior, nothing would have materially changed, and they would have been ambushed all the same. And that was a distress call, which all our ships would respond to if given the opportunity, regardless of ROE.
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- Location
- Patriarchova
I'm sensing I've hit a raw nerve from the design thread.
He just doesn't trust Dominion designs.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
Were you expressing this opinion back in 2309-10? Very possibly, but it would have had to be back then for us to get the berths in time for us to use them to turn out a big pile of Mirandas. If we started building the berths at the last snakepit, we wouldn't be able to put construction in them until some time in 2314 or so, and we wouldn't see any ships out of them until some time in 2316, most likely.
We don't actually have to build any of those. Also, the Akiras are way too big to be classed as escorts. They were fit in as escorts in Star Trek Online because there weren't enough ships to fill that progression, and because their firepower makes them good candidates for 'tactical' ships, not because they're small.
Problem: to get veterancy in this game you have to pass event checks. It's been twelve years and we have reason to think that, not counting explorers, none of our ships are even close to earning Blooded status, let alone Veteran or Elite. The smaller ships just don't hit event checks often enough, and when they do hit them, they often don't pass.
So far, literally every Blooded or better ship we have that isn't classed as an explorer was given that bonus as an omake reward or as the result of a vote.
Finagle007
[Verified Great Old One]
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- USA
@Briefvoice assuming absolute min for all home sectors, keeping some forces as part of the Anti-syndicate task force, and not too far over defense on the KBZ and RBZ what can we free up for conflict in the GBZ, SBZ and CBZ? If we can look at that I think we can get a better idea of needs.
One thing on the Centaur-A vs Miranda-A is that Miranda is cost optimized for offensive operations, Centaur-A does better for peacetime and garrison. We need three Mirandas to cover the same defense requirement as two Centaur-A. What I am thinking is for wartime deployments we move Centaur-A to home sector, KBZ and RBZ and free up any Miranda-A we have deployed there to be moved to the GBZ,CBZ and SBZ.
Couple things on resources current income:
2312-
BR: 710 (EOY 2311) + 25 (mining colony) + ? (Qolathi) =735 + Qolathi
SR: 460 (EOY 2311) + 15 (mining colony) + ? Qolathi + 25 (tech increasing SR colonies by 5) = 500 +Qolathi
2313-
BR:735+Q + Indorian + Apiata=735+Q+I+A
SR:500+Q + 20 (mining colony) + Indorian + Apiata =520+Q+I+A
So we are seeing some nice increases, two races converting to members, one hitting the 300 mark, plus two colonies this year, one more next and the +5 to SR mining colonies.
Berths open 2313:
40 Eridani A Berth A (opens 2313.Q1)
40 Eridani A Berth 1,2 (opens 2313.Q1)
Ana Font Berth A (opens 2313.Q1)
Utopia Planitia Berth B (open 2313.Q1)
Utopia Planitia Berth 1,2 (open 2313.Q2)
Excelsior-230 BR, 150 SR
Connie B-100 BR, 80 SR
Centaur-A 80 BR, 70 SR
Miranda-A 60 SR, 40 SR
Some notes, Eridani A Berth B finishes in 2315.Q1 and Eridani A and Utopia Planitia are the only places with multiple excelsior berths (2 and 3 respectively) all of which are 3mt, San Fran Yard A is also 3mt and opens 2314.Q1 (may want to keep it open for Ambassador prototype).
We will have 3 Excelsior berths and 4 general berths open next year. Based off income we could start 3 excelsior, but that would consume almost all the income and they would be 4 year builds. Eridani A we would want to keep busy for 3 years to sync up with Eridani B, Utopia A and C can start new Excelsiors in 2315. In doing so Eirdani B would do a refit or repair totaling 1 year and with Eridani A be free 2316.Q1. Utopia B and Ana Font A could start Excelsiors (unless we have a member that wants to start an Excelsior in one of those two berths) for 460 BR and 300 SR leaving 275 BR and 200 SR, Utopia 1 and 2 would go for refits which are 10 of each resource I believe, leaving us with 255 and 180. At this point we could go three Miranda-A or three Centaur-A if we get another 30 SR and 45 BR (some of which we will get from Qolathi).
The decision point there should be do we have Miranda-A that could be freed up from garrison duty by Centaur-A or not. Now if we get a member world that wants to run an Excelsior in one of our berths I would be all for that(since the last two gained us a small amount of PP), and that changes the resource calculus that I would suggest building a run of 3 Centaur-A as that takes 3 more techs and we will have the resources to spare, that also gives us more flexibility with freeing up ships for front line deployment. Of course we would want to start a second run in those three yards once the first finishes to get 40 Eridani A to be open on 2316.Q1 which would be Miranda-A if the situation is still hot.
One thing on the Centaur-A vs Miranda-A is that Miranda is cost optimized for offensive operations, Centaur-A does better for peacetime and garrison. We need three Mirandas to cover the same defense requirement as two Centaur-A. What I am thinking is for wartime deployments we move Centaur-A to home sector, KBZ and RBZ and free up any Miranda-A we have deployed there to be moved to the GBZ,CBZ and SBZ.
Couple things on resources current income:
2312-
BR: 710 (EOY 2311) + 25 (mining colony) + ? (Qolathi) =735 + Qolathi
SR: 460 (EOY 2311) + 15 (mining colony) + ? Qolathi + 25 (tech increasing SR colonies by 5) = 500 +Qolathi
2313-
BR:735+Q + Indorian + Apiata=735+Q+I+A
SR:500+Q + 20 (mining colony) + Indorian + Apiata =520+Q+I+A
So we are seeing some nice increases, two races converting to members, one hitting the 300 mark, plus two colonies this year, one more next and the +5 to SR mining colonies.
Berths open 2313:
40 Eridani A Berth A (opens 2313.Q1)
40 Eridani A Berth 1,2 (opens 2313.Q1)
Ana Font Berth A (opens 2313.Q1)
Utopia Planitia Berth B (open 2313.Q1)
Utopia Planitia Berth 1,2 (open 2313.Q2)
Excelsior-230 BR, 150 SR
Connie B-100 BR, 80 SR
Centaur-A 80 BR, 70 SR
Miranda-A 60 SR, 40 SR
Some notes, Eridani A Berth B finishes in 2315.Q1 and Eridani A and Utopia Planitia are the only places with multiple excelsior berths (2 and 3 respectively) all of which are 3mt, San Fran Yard A is also 3mt and opens 2314.Q1 (may want to keep it open for Ambassador prototype).
We will have 3 Excelsior berths and 4 general berths open next year. Based off income we could start 3 excelsior, but that would consume almost all the income and they would be 4 year builds. Eridani A we would want to keep busy for 3 years to sync up with Eridani B, Utopia A and C can start new Excelsiors in 2315. In doing so Eirdani B would do a refit or repair totaling 1 year and with Eridani A be free 2316.Q1. Utopia B and Ana Font A could start Excelsiors (unless we have a member that wants to start an Excelsior in one of those two berths) for 460 BR and 300 SR leaving 275 BR and 200 SR, Utopia 1 and 2 would go for refits which are 10 of each resource I believe, leaving us with 255 and 180. At this point we could go three Miranda-A or three Centaur-A if we get another 30 SR and 45 BR (some of which we will get from Qolathi).
The decision point there should be do we have Miranda-A that could be freed up from garrison duty by Centaur-A or not. Now if we get a member world that wants to run an Excelsior in one of our berths I would be all for that(since the last two gained us a small amount of PP), and that changes the resource calculus that I would suggest building a run of 3 Centaur-A as that takes 3 more techs and we will have the resources to spare, that also gives us more flexibility with freeing up ships for front line deployment. Of course we would want to start a second run in those three yards once the first finishes to get 40 Eridani A to be open on 2316.Q1 which would be Miranda-A if the situation is still hot.
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- Location
- USA
Front page under fleet status, you have to look at each spoiler for the sector as they are still listed as separate, though only Sol has more than one world that is a member (Apinae Sector will next year)
We do not have a Generic Team 6
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
As I said above, if the Oberth captain is allowed the flexibility in how he or she responds, from "throw yourself into the meat grinder" to "analyze the encounter but don't engage unless help arrives", then I'm fine with that.
An ambush probably is a different type of stress call and could involve a science check to spot the ambush.
The Endurance in that event did wander into that ambush but Chekov knew he had backup, reducing the risk of said ambush. And the text indicates that the Endurance did succeed in spotting the ambush, albeit already in the ambush zone, but that's because they warped right on top of the Gretarian vessel.
A lone Oberth should act much more cautiously.
I think he's referring the snakepit vote this year or last year. Also, new 1mt berths at existing shipyards only take 4 quarters to finish, not 8+ quarters that you're implying. If we started building new berths this year, they would be available for use next year.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
The big problem there is that adding one-megaton berths to our existing yards is almost the least efficient way possible to get more shipbuilding capacity for a given number of political willpower points.
Of course, by any reasonable standard the Akira is a combat-optimized cruiser, but the point remains. Nothing forces us to do, or not do, any specific ship design. And if experience shows that even when war is imminent we aren't willing to start building warships... then we have no choice but to try and do the best we can with generalist ships.
Strictly, no. If we decide that the proper answer to the Dominion or the Borg is to build a combat-optimized cruiser, we can. It may not be the best answer, but we can do that.
Of course, by any reasonable standard the Akira is a combat-optimized cruiser, but the point remains. Nothing forces us to do, or not do, any specific ship design. And if experience shows that even when war is imminent we aren't willing to start building warships... then we have no choice but to try and do the best we can with generalist ships.
Special resources are actually a bit tight at the moment. One of the big reasons NOT to build Centaur-As is that, while we can arguably spare the extra tech, the extra special resource cost of the Centaur-A doesn't pay off well enough to be worth the effort.
lbmaian
a thirsty squirrel
- Location
- USA
I was including UP expansions in that by the way, which are our most efficient way to expand berth capacity: 35pp & 4 turns for 1 3mt berth & 1 1mt berth.
But yes, the other pp-efficient options involve new shipyards which require 2 or 3 year construction times.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I will admit I'd forgotten about the Utopia Planitia option. The big problem there is that most of that political will is, in effect, spent on the three-megaton berth. Trouble is, we don't have the resources or crew to take proper advantage of the heavy berth; we'd just be using it to work on one megaton ships.
- Location
- USA
It does if we can free up 1.5 Miranda-A for front line duty, it also makes a difference on if we get asked for a berth to build another member Excelsior or not. Actually going back to the MWCO for this year we had a choice to see if we wanted the Amarkia to expand their berth size or keep it free for a second UE Excelsior. If they want to start it this year that frees up a lot of SR in our schedule. I also figure between the two members and Qolathi we should see an increase of about 50 SR moving our SR income to 570 next year. Hopefully we keep finding SR colonies (at least one a year) to keep expanding there as well.
Having said that there are variables, if there are no Miranda-A to free up then building new Miranda-A makes sense unless we get an excess of resources, in which cause the Centaur-A makes sense since combat wise they are the same, and same build time, difference is Centaur-A is one more tech and more BR and SR, in exchange for better peacetime stats. If we remove resources from the equation the Centaur-As make more sense, if we are conserving SR and or BR then Miranda-A make more sense, unless we need to keep several Miranda-A on garrison duty to hit defense requirements since the Centaur-A is cheaper per point of Defense. That is why I want to know what our plan is for shifting every free ship to SBZ, CBZ and GBZ.
Actually @OneirosTheWriter during MWCO this year we had this as an option:
[ ][AMARKI] Loan the berth to United Earth for a 2nd Excelsior
When would the UE want to start that and would they be interested in one of our berths to construct it?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
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- She/Her
Wouldn't specialization and ROE help with that?