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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest)

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To Boldly Go... (a Starfleet quest) Starfleet Ship Design Bureau, Refit ("To Boldly Go...")
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Simon_Jester said:
I will admit I'd forgotten about the Utopia Planitia option. The big problem there is that most of that political will is, in effect, spent on the three-megaton berth. Trouble is, we don't have the resources or crew to take proper advantage of the heavy berth; we'd just be using it to work on one megaton ships.
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Having a "loose" 3mt berth given our increased level of confrontation with the Cardassians and the coming Ambassador prototyping process is probably worthwhile. There are other things we can do with it besides build Excelsiors.
 
Void Stalker said:
@Briefvoice assuming absolute min for all home sectors, keeping some forces as part of the Anti-syndicate task force, and not too far over defense on the KBZ and RBZ what can we free up for conflict in the GBZ, SBZ and CBZ? If we can look at that I think we can get a better idea of needs.
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You understand this is a really complicated question, but... Let's look at 2313.Q2. I estimate that this is when Apinae sector will requiring garrisoning, which I assume will require D12. That's based on the "standard" D9 plus and extra D3 for having two member worlds. Assuming that we follow my suggestion and only have two Miranda-As out for refit in 2313.Q2, our available forces will be:

6 Miranda (2 others in refit)
2 Miranda-A (back from refit)
7 Centaur-A
5 Oberths (this includes the T'Mir, which will be back from its overdue refits)
7 Constitution-Bs
7 Constellations
1 Constitution-A
11 Excelsiors (5 of them in Exploration Corps and unavailable for garrison duty)

Here is my projected minimum (or near minimum) for all sectors that are not the CBZ, SBZ, or GBZ.

Sol Sector – Requires D18
Q2 2313 - 1 Constitution-B (5) [Hood], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Zephyr], 2 Constellation [Selaya, Stalwart] (6), Starbase 1 (5) = 18D

Vulcan Sector – Requires D12
Q2 2313 – 1 Constitution-B (5) [Unnamed SF build], 1 Miranda (2) [Thunderhead], Starbase I (5) = 12D

Andor Sector – Requires D9
Q2 2313 - 1 Constellation (3) [Docana], Oberth (1) [Suvek], Starbase I (5) = 9D

Tellar Sector – Requires D9
Q2 2313 - 1 Centaur-A (3) [Bull], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 13D
Note: I don't think we want to leave any sector with no ship at all.

Amarkia Sector – Requires D15
Q2 2313 - 2 Centaur-A (6) [Blizzard, Lightning], Starbase I (5), Extra Outposts (5) = 16D

Ferasa Sector – Requires D15
Q2 2313 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Avandar], 1 Constitution-A (5) [Cheron], Starbase I (5) = 16D

Rigel Sector – Requires D9
Q2 2313 - 1 Constellation (3) [Kearsage], 1 Oberth (1) [T'Mir], Starbase I (5) = 9D

Apinae Sector – Assumed to Require D12 as of 2313.Q2
Q2 2313 - 1 Constellation (3) [Vigour], 1 Centaur-A (3) [Gale], Starbase I (5) [Grand Hive of Apinae], Extra Outposts (5) = 16D

Romulan Border Zone – Requires D12
Q2 2313 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Excelsior], 1 Miranda-A (2) [Shield], Oberth [Hawking] (1), Starbase I (5) = 14D

Klingon Border Zone – Requires D6
Q2 2313 - 1 Excelsior (6) [Thirishar], 1 Miranda (2) [T'Kumbra], 1 Oberth (1) [Inspire] = D9.

Anti-Syndicate Task Force – No fixed Requirement
Q2 2313 – 1 Constitution-B [Lexington], 2 Constellations [Sappho, Challorn] (3), 1 Oberth (1) [Torbriel]


Okay, so for the Cardassian Border Zone, the Sydraxian Border Zone, and the Gabriel Border Zone that leaves:
3 Excelsiors
4 Constitution-Bs
2 Centaur-A
4 Mirandas (reduce this if you want to have more than 2 refits in progress)
1 Miranda-A

Note that the CBZ and the SBZ both have a Starbase. Does this help?

One thing on the Centaur-A vs Miranda-A is that Miranda is cost optimized for offensive operations, Centaur-A does better for peacetime and garrison. We need three Mirandas to cover the same defense requirement as Centaur-A.
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Miranda-As have D2 and Centaur-As D3. You need 3 Mirandas to cover the same defense as 2 Centaurs, so it's not as bad as you're thinking.

2312-
BR: 710 (EOY 2311) + 25 (mining colony) + ? (Qolathi) =735 + Qolathi
SR: 460 (EOY 2311) + 15 (mining colony) + ? Qolathi + 25 (tech increasing SR colonies by 5) = 500 +Qolathi
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I have the mining colony increases factored in, but not the Qolathi.

2313-
BR:735+Q + Indorian + Apiata=735+Q+I+A
SR:500+Q + 20 (mining colony) + Indorian + Apiata =520+Q+I+A
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I have all this factored in, though admittedly the exact quantity of I + A income is a guess.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I will admit I'd forgotten about the Utopia Planitia option. The big problem there is that most of that political will is, in effect, spent on the three-megaton berth. Trouble is, we don't have the resources or crew to take proper advantage of the heavy berth; we'd just be using it to work on one megaton ships.
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Ana Font and Lor Vela can add 1mt berth at 15pp each, if we don't want more at Utopia Planitia, on the flip side expanding Utopia Planitia gives us 4 3mt berths and 4 1mt berths and lets us split the 3mt berths into two sets of two to take advantage of Chens ability for explorers without wiping out our resources.

Briefvoice said:
You understand this is a really complicated question, but... Let's look at 2313.Q2. I estimate that this is when Apinae sector will requiring garrisoning, which I assume will require D12. That's based on the "standard" D9 plus and extra D3 for having two member worlds. Assuming that we follow my suggestion and only have two Miranda-As out for refit in 2313.Q2, our available forces will be:


Okay, so for the Cardassian Border Zone, the Sydraxian Border Zone, and the Gabriel Border Zone that leaves:
3 Excelsiors
4 Constitution-Bs
2 Centaur-A
4 Mirandas (reduce this if you want to have more than 2 refits in progress)
1 Miranda-A

Note that the CBZ and the SBZ both have a Starbase. Does this help?
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Yes it does, my only possible switch is moving a normal Miranda to the RBZ in place of the Miranda-A assigned there. It helps as it tells me additional Centaurs are not going to free up a Miranda-A.

Briefvoice said:
Miranda-As have D2 and Centaur-As D3. You need 3 Mirandas to cover the same defense as 2 Centaurs, so it's not as bad as you're thinking.
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That was a goof on my part, I had been thinking that just missed adding that in. It makes more a difference though as if we had needed Miranda-A for home sector garrison building a pair of Centaur-A would have freed up 3 Miranda-A. Since they will not it swings in the first batch of three being Miranda-A



Briefvoice said:
I have the mining colony increases factored in, but not the Qolathi.



I have all this factored in, though admittedly the exact quantity of I + A income is a guess.
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I can guestimate about 40-45 BR and 30-35 SR for I and A, Q is likely along the size of Indorian contributions currently (maybe a bit more). I am also seeking to find out if UE will have the resources for an Excelsior in 2313 since they were interest in using one of Amarkia berth for that. If they do then offering one of our 3 berths for that in exchange for some PP may be worth it. Also next year maybe expanding Utopia Planitia so we have 4 of each berth letting us split them into groups of two for the 3mt berth and either groups of 2 or one large batch of 4 for the 1mt berths.

Edit: More thoughts, we may want to start only one Excelsior next year and use the Utopia B berth for a Miranda refit. That way if we take the Utopia expansion at the snakepit we would have Utopia B and D available to build two excelsiors in 2314. The one in B would finish only a quarter later despite starting a year and a quarter later and we would be getting another excelsior finishing in 2317 that way. Also would let us stagger three sets of two 3mt berths to build pairs of Excelsiors in three years.

Just one of the options we have going forward.
 
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Simon_Jester said:
Were you expressing this opinion back in 2309-10? Very possibly, but it would have had to be back then for us to get the berths in time for us to use them to turn out a big pile of Mirandas. If we started building the berths at the last snakepit, we wouldn't be able to put construction in them until some time in 2314 or so, and we wouldn't see any ships out of them until some time in 2316, most likely.
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I think you'll find that my posts in this thread start around then-but then there was this horrible election thing that killed all my desire and will to post. In any case, you seem to find my schemes for getting more slipyards quickly up and running too expensive, but I still think that yard expansions-even if we put nothing in them immediately, would be a fairly good idea. A war means damaged ships heading back to our yards, and right now, we've got them working full time. We've got practically no space free for repairs outside of the Member Fleets' yards. for the next five years. And I know you don't like my plan for Indoria to be our next yard because it's a bit close to Cardassia, but man, even if Pearl harbor could get Pearl Harbored, it was kinda nice to have drydocks out in the mid-pacific instead of having to go all the way back to the west coast.
 
For similar reasons I favor building yards at Amarkia. And I'd favor a position between Amarkia and the border, if there were any good place to put it around the 'halfway between' mark.

My concern with building a yard in Indorion space is that to me, it's really far forward. That's not the equivalent of building drydocks at Pearl Harbor. It's the equivalent of building them on Guam. They're so far forward that it's not even a question of IF they'll be attacked, but WHEN.

If the Cardassians had a big shipyard full of invitingly helpless ships undergoing repairs at Bajor, a place equally close to the border on their side of the line, I certainly hope we'd have the presence of mind to attack it, for instance. ;)
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I approve of building more yards to create more repair space; we should definitely do that next snakepit when we aren't forced to burn sixty political will just to get the Council to even issue directives regarding our two most pressing security issues.
 
Well one good thing about the five year pause on new members is it gives us time to start getting shipyards setup in sectors that do not have one yet..

First Tier wants:
Utopia Planatia Expansion-35pp
Ammend Anti-Syndicate Legislation-30pp
Any mines we find-8pp each
Ambassador Class-34pp

Second Tier Wants:
Diplo Push-Dawair, Holliani, Ked Peddah, Graterians (in order of desire) 20pp each
Personnel to Vice Admiral ??pp
Academy Expansions 15pp for science ?? for normal
Starbase-Indoria (if 15pp), KBZ-25 pp
Tech Team-Mineral Science (need one to go down the BR path)

Though there may be new options available.
 
The first tier wants you list are almost certainly higher priority than any new options that are likely to arise, unless we require said options to deal with an urgent national emergency.
 
Simon_Jester said:
For similar reasons I favor building yards at Amarkia. And I'd favor a position between Amarkia and the border, if there were any good place to put it around the 'halfway between' mark.

My concern with building a yard in Indorion space is that to me, it's really far forward. That's not the equivalent of building drydocks at Pearl Harbor. It's the equivalent of building them on Guam. They're so far forward that it's not even a question of IF they'll be attacked, but WHEN.

If the Cardassians had a big shipyard full of invitingly helpless ships undergoing repairs at Bajor, a place equally close to the border on their side of the line, I certainly hope we'd have the presence of mind to attack it, for instance. ;)
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I approve of building more yards to create more repair space; we should definitely do that next snakepit when we aren't forced to burn sixty political will just to get the Council to even issue directives regarding our two most pressing security issues.
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Would you be so eager to attack them if they were under the protective shadow of Terok Nor? I'm not suggesting building a shipyard without a commensurate amount of fortification-A starbase for preference, outposts if that is untenable. Suddenly the ships might be helpless, but they're no longer inviting, are they? Not with a dozen torpedo launchers, twenty or more phaser banks, and about ten million tons of space station ominously nearby. Now that's not safe, but it's also not flipping Guam, which had only about 500 marines on it and was in the same island chain as Japanese possessions, and couldn't be fortified by treaty and neglect.

And it's behind the Cardassian Border Zone anyways-we're aiming for Forward Defense, aren't we? It's not an impassible barrier, but it's not gonna get crushed without incident. The Cardassians are not already inside the perimeter.
 
Vehrec said:
Would you be so eager to attack them if they were under the protective shadow of Terok Nor? I'm not suggesting building a shipyard without a commensurate amount of fortification-A starbase for preference, outposts if that is untenable. Suddenly the ships might be helpless, but they're no longer inviting, are they? Not with a dozen torpedo launchers, twenty or more phaser banks, and about ten million tons of space station ominously nearby. Now that's not safe, but it's also not flipping Guam, which had only about 500 marines on it and was in the same island chain as Japanese possessions, and couldn't be fortified by treaty and neglect.

And it's behind the Cardassian Border Zone anyways-we're aiming for Forward Defense, aren't we? It's not an impassible barrier, but it's not gonna get crushed without incident. The Cardassians are not already inside the perimeter.
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Apiata would be a better spot initially, it has a starbase already and the Apiata fleet is quite a bit stronger than the Indorian fleet so it would have more ships to defend it, plus it is a bit further from the border.
 
I still don't know if we want to start the Ambassador class or not. The sheet is still in flux!

Vehrec said:
Would you be so eager to attack them if they were under the protective shadow of Terok Nor? I'm not suggesting building a shipyard without a commensurate amount of fortification-A starbase for preference, outposts if that is untenable. Suddenly the ships might be helpless, but they're no longer inviting, are they? Not with a dozen torpedo launchers, twenty or more phaser banks, and about ten million tons of space station ominously nearby. Now that's not safe, but it's also not flipping Guam, which had only about 500 marines on it and was in the same island chain as Japanese possessions, and couldn't be fortified by treaty and neglect.

And it's behind the Cardassian Border Zone anyways-we're aiming for Forward Defense, aren't we? It's not an impassible barrier, but it's not gonna get crushed without incident. The Cardassians are not already inside the perimeter.
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There are other locations I'd vote for a new Shipyard before Indoria. For one thing, I'm not convinced they can support it properly. Remember their technology is decades behind Federation standard. I'd want to want until they've been members for a decade and had a chance to bring it up to snuff.
 
Vehrec said:
Would you be so eager to attack them if they were under the protective shadow of Terok Nor?
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I'd use a bigger fleet, but yes, yes I would. We can definitely whistle up a large enough fleet to blow up a Cardassian starbase, plus, blowing up a Cardassian starbase is a desirable military objective in and of itself. If the ships weren't available to do it I might be deterred from trying, but it certainly wouldn't do much to discourage me from trying. It'd just mean we have to commit more force.

I'm not suggesting building a shipyard without a commensurate amount of fortification-A starbase for preference, outposts if that is untenable. Suddenly the ships might be helpless, but they're no longer inviting, are they? Not with a dozen torpedo launchers, twenty or more phaser banks, and about ten million tons of space station ominously nearby. Now that's not safe, but it's also not flipping Guam, which had only about 500 marines on it and was in the same island chain as Japanese possessions, and couldn't be fortified by treaty and neglect.
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Okay, Guam was an exaggeration. It's like building the drydock in the Philippines. ;)

Seriously, the big problem here is that we just don't have that large a proportion of our total strength close enough to Indorion space to reinforce it faster than the Cardassians can attack it. The CBZ fleet at Lapycorias could very easily be forced to retreat in the face of an overwhelming Cardassian cruiser force, and one of the most probable scenarios for the Cardassians deciding to fight us would involve their fleet massing at Bajor and then being up into Indorion space within about two weeks. The first battle of the war might well be fought around Indorion, and if we don't win then the repair yard there would turn out... less than useful.

I like the idea of forward repair infrastructure, i've spoken out in favor of it before. But I don't want it so far forward that it's easier for the enemy to attack than it is for us to reinforce.

Void Stalker said:
Apiata would be a better spot initially, it has a starbase already and the Apiata fleet is quite a bit stronger than the Indorian fleet so it would have more ships to defend it, plus it is a bit further from the border.
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Do we have an exact count on the Indorion fleet? I don't remember us even knowing what ship types they have...

Briefvoice said:
I still don't know if we want to start the Ambassador class or not. The sheet is still in flux!
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@OneirosTheWriter, this is an important point. What will we do for an Ambassador design if the thread votes to start the class in 2313Q2 and the design sheet isn't ready yet? Do we just get the 'canon' statline you picked out for us at the beginning of the game? Do we try to come up with designs using a spreadsheet that's still in beta testing?
 
Simon_Jester said:
I'd use a bigger fleet, but yes, yes I would. We can definitely whistle up a large enough fleet to blow up a Cardassian starbase, plus, blowing up a Cardassian starbase is a desirable military objective in and of itself. If the ships weren't available to do it I might be deterred from trying, but it certainly wouldn't do much to discourage me from trying. It'd just mean we have to commit more force.

Okay, Guam was an exaggeration. It's like building the drydock in the Philippines. ;)

Seriously, the big problem here is that we just don't have that large a proportion of our total strength close enough to Indorion space to reinforce it faster than the Cardassians can attack it. The CBZ fleet at Lapycorias could very easily be forced to retreat in the face of an overwhelming Cardassian cruiser force, and one of the most probable scenarios for the Cardassians deciding to fight us would involve their fleet massing at Bajor and then being up into Indorion space within about two weeks. The first battle of the war might well be fought around Indorion, and if we don't win then the repair yard there would turn out... less than useful.

I like the idea of forward repair infrastructure, i've spoken out in favor of it before. But I don't want it so far forward that it's easier for the enemy to attack than it is for us to reinforce.

Do we have an exact count on the Indorion fleet? I don't remember us even knowing what ship types they have...

@OneirosTheWriter, this is an important point. What will we do for an Ambassador design if the thread votes to start the class in 2313Q2 and the design sheet isn't ready yet? Do we just get the 'canon' statline you picked out for us at the beginning of the game? Do we try to come up with designs using a spreadsheet that's still in beta testing?
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We do for the Indorians:
To Bodly Go-Member and Affiliate Fleets
6 Escorts and 3 Cruiser class for 29 combat total, with a 4C escort under construction. Apiata are at 78 combat with a Queenship and two Foragers (science escort, 1S better than the Oberth!) under construction. Map wise Apiata are 3 sectors from the nearest Cardasian system (which also has a shipyard and starbase) but only one from the Sydraxians. Indoria is 1.5 Sectors from the nearest cardassian world, and 2 from the nearest one with a starbase and shipyards, but only one from Bajor. Also an Apiata yard would be in position to support ships deployed to the GBZ.
 
Simon_Jester said:
I approve of building more yards to create more repair space; we should definitely do that next snakepit when we aren't forced to burn sixty political will just to get the Council to even issue directives regarding our two most pressing security issues.
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Depending on what the intel report tells us about Syndicate resilience, we'll be spending 30pp (replan legislation with +5 impact), 50pp (replan legislation with +10 impact), or 20pp (save another +5 impact for the following year to spend, though I find this unlikely).

Furthermore, unless we get another event that boosted our pp like the Kadeshi expedition or we get luckier in event pp bonuses, next year's snakepit is gonna be painful for us.

Our current total Syndicate cost, which each point equates to one percentage point decrease of our 87pp annual income, then depending on how the EOY halving of Syndicate cost works out:
If Syndicate cost from 2+ years ago is zeroed out and last year's accrued Syndicate cost (after subtracting out our resilience) is halved at EOY: -55%
If total Syndicate cost is halved at EOY: -57%
If only last year's accrued Syndicate cost (after subtracting out our resilience) is halved at EOY: -63%

So even if I take the most optimistic interpretation of "halving cost", our annual income is going to max out at 39pp. And we still have half a year worth of Master of Orion reports and Captain's Logs to get through.
 
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That's annual income, but we're likely to pick up significant political will from events. We may have some hard decisions to make anyway, but I think Void Stalker correctly listed our priorities.

Even if we can't achieve all of them at once... that's still going to be what we want done.
 
One source would be Indoria and Apiata admission events, past members have provided RP and PP when they join, though the question is when during the year the two will join.
 
Void Stalker said:
We do for the Indorians:
To Bodly Go-Member and Affiliate Fleets
6 Escorts and 3 Cruiser class for 29 combat total, with a 4C escort under construction. Apiata are at 78 combat with a Queenship and two Foragers (science escort, 1S better than the Oberth!) under construction. Map wise Apiata are 3 sectors from the nearest Cardasian system (which also has a shipyard and starbase) but only one from the Sydraxians. Indoria is 1.5 Sectors from the nearest cardassian world, and 2 from the nearest one with a starbase and shipyards, but only one from Bajor. Also an Apiata yard would be in position to support ships deployed to the GBZ.
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Is that your sheet? I have the link saved, but I can't remember who the maintainer is.
 
Simon_Jester said:
The big problem there is that adding one-megaton berths to our existing yards is almost the least efficient way possible to get more shipbuilding capacity for a given number of political willpower points.

Strictly, no. If we decide that the proper answer to the Dominion or the Borg is to build a combat-optimized cruiser, we can. It may not be the best answer, but we can do that.

Of course, by any reasonable standard the Akira is a combat-optimized cruiser, but the point remains. Nothing forces us to do, or not do, any specific ship design. And if experience shows that even when war is imminent we aren't willing to start building warships... then we have no choice but to try and do the best we can with generalist ships.
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The Akiras serve a special wartime role: they're smallcraft tenders. I suspect that aside from being armed cruisers they also serve to keep the peregrines and whatnot operational during battles and campaigns
 
Simon_Jester said:
I think I must be forgetting something. Where do we know about the small craft tender role from?
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Well, there's the fact their stated shuttle compliment is fifty and their shuttlebay doors are bow rather than stern unlike nearly every other Federation design.

Apparently they're also good for evacuations and large-scale planetary operations like detailed survey.
 
By the by, there's an Oberth listed on the Syndicate taskforce in the front page without a name, does anyone know what it's named?

(Also is that ship listing up-to-date?)
 
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