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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Skippy said:
The fact the Battle of Cheron is mentioned offhand on a screen in a single episode of Enterprise is not in any sense a statement that only a single battle was fought in a four-year long war. It is patently ludicrous to assert that it is. Enterprise not featuring atomic weaponry can most easily be explained by the need to produce larger volumes of weapons more cheapy. Your point about the colonies is nonsensical - there is absolutely nothing in The Original Series or Discovery which indicates colonies were not attacked in a war that took place a century beforehand.
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I think my point is: let's not read into existence speculation meant to make this all make sense. I agree that there likely has to be one other battle at least, but we just don't know what happened and making decisions on incorrect info is always a risk.
 
Karugus said:
[X] One Reaction Thruster, One Forward Cannon, One Aft (11 Industry -> 16 Industry)

The notion that an armed freighter a single point cheaper than a dedicated warship ought to be one of our primary combatants should die in a fire. This hull isn't cheap, it's never going to be particularly combat effective, and there's an entirely good chance we don't make too many of these things. I struggle to see a world where we make more than 5 tbh. By then we'll be working on the Enterprise and from there we're going to be devoting our industry to more sophisticated ships or trying to get it to compound.

We literally can't produce two in parallel if the supposed 'auxiliary cruiser' variant gets pushed. That guarantees it will never be a major hull in use far more so than a ship battery that can bring literally all of its firepower to bear just by using a fucking broadside.
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Sayle said:
For every ship component, you pay Industry to manufacture it.

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It looks like:
1 hull
2 Thruster
1 engine
1 deflector
2 field coils
1 Antimatter pod
1 computer
1 polarization relay
3 phase cannons
2 Spatial Torpedoes
= 20 Industry = Stingray

Drop the Torpedoes and upgrade to impulse it's a 22 point ship.

1 hull
1 Thruster
1 engine
1 deflector
2 field coils
1 Antimatter pod
1 computer
1 polarization relay
2 phase cannons
= 14 industry is the cheapest 2 phase cannon ship we can build. Assuming Impulse engines cost 3 industry that two of those brings it up to 18, if you pay for the secondary/engineering hull that's 19...

Ships are going to get a lot more expensive very quickly. So I don't think 19 is excessively expensive and 16 is certainly the cheapest we're probably ever going to see.
 
I dont know much about the source material, but my understanding is that the next ship is A Big Deal, so i think i'd value getting the prototype hammered out to be stable for that over a difference of a little under a 5th extra cost

[X] Two Impulse Thrusters (Prototype), Two Forward Phase Cannons (11 Industry -> 19 Industry)
 
[X] Two Impulse Thrusters (Prototype), Two Forward Phase Cannons (11 Industry -> 19 Industry)

To be honest, I wish there is an option for one impulse thruster since moving on from reaction drive sound like a very important thing just from space saving alone.
 
Karugus said:
[X] One Reaction Thruster, One Forward Cannon, One Aft (11 Industry -> 16 Industry)

The notion that an armed freighter a single point cheaper than a dedicated warship ought to be one of our primary combatants should die in a fire. This hull isn't cheap, it's never going to be particularly combat effective, and there's an entirely good chance we don't make too many of these things. I struggle to see a world where we make more than 5 tbh. By then we'll be working on the Enterprise and from there we're going to be devoting our industry to more sophisticated ships or trying to get it to compound.

We literally can't produce two in parallel if the supposed 'auxiliary cruiser' variant gets pushed. That guarantees it will never be a major hull in use far more so than a ship battery that can bring literally all of its firepower to bear just by using a fucking broadside.

The single engine variant isn't even bad in a fleet battle so long as we stop fetishing dog fighting and see it as a slow line of battle that can anchor a fleet
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Let me make one thing clear: we aren't making two in parallel anyway. That would eat up the entirety of our industrial capacity, which needs to be busily creating more industrial capacity right now. Literally the argument in favor of the 16 industry option is that spare 3 production making more production.
 
That clinches it for me.
[X] Two Impulse Thrusters (Prototype), Two Forward Phase Cannons (11 Industry -> 19 Industry)
 
[X] One Reaction Thruster, One Forward Cannon, One Aft (11 Industry -> 16 Industry)
Kartr_Kana said:
Because we don't have the fleet size to turn up our noses at any hull that could possibly fulfill missions we need carried out? Also impulse engines are clearly the way forward so not using them shortens the class's lifespan.
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These ships are already slower, bigger, less armed and nearly cost as much as our dedicated warship. So no the do not need a litle bit of extra speed to make them equivlent in price when everyone knows that any serious warship will just kill them anyway. We can use the resources to build a better NX class.

Skippy said:
Just to try and hammer home the point: this vessel is a warship right now.
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Oh yes this thing is a warship as much as the german AMC/Raiders in WW1 and WW2 were warships. Historically AMC lose the moment a real warship looks at them. There Was only ever one armed Merchant cruisers that sank a real warship in battle. It was a German raider Komoran sucker punching the light cruiser HMAS Sydney with torpedoes. The Komoran still died to Sydneys guns and was later scuttled by her crew. This happened in ww2.
 
Well, it looks like the reaction thruster is going to win, which means the NX-01 is getting the prototype roll.
 
Last thread turned the "What do you mean this isn't a warship?" factor up as much as possible, and it was great.
 
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[X] One Reaction Thruster, One Forward Cannon, One Aft (11 Industry -> 16 Industry)
 
KNakamura said:
I think my point is: let's not read into existence speculation meant to make this all make sense. I agree that there likely has to be one other battle at least, but we just don't know what happened and making decisions on incorrect info is always a risk.
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Fair enough. Also apologies if I got a bit snippy in my tone there, it's not really necessary.

Bedpotato said:
Oh yes this thing is a warship as much as the german AMC/Raiders in WW1 and WW2 were warships. Historically AMC lose the moment a real warship looks at them. There Was only ever one armed Merchant cruisers that sank a real warship in battle. It was a German raider Komoran sucker punching the light cruiser HMAS Sydney with torpedoes. The Komoran still died to Sydneys guns and was later scuttled by her crew. This happened in ww2.
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Well, there is a reason I said I characterised them as "tin cans" exploding heroically trying to protect a colony. Unfortunately, sometimes them's the breaks. That being said, the usage of armed merchant ships and auxiliary cruisers by many navies in both World Wars also points to their military usefulness. Sometimes you simply need more hulls for more jobs than you have dedicated combatants. Or to bring it back to Star Trek for a second, look at why Starfleet was sending the Miranda-class out to fight the Dominion

The Kormoran is a good example, although I was thinking in particular of the HMS Jervis Bay, which is more the kind of situation I envisage these ships dying in.
 
Jensaarai said:
They just kept finding warehouses filled with nothing but Miranda-classes.
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Miranda-ification was in fact a terrible plague from an esoteric dimension afflicting Starfleet at the time, which they decided to weaponize against the Dominion.

Everything from starships, facilities, uncomfortable-looking 90s office chairs, and in advanced stages, even sentient humanoids could find themselves undergoing an American Werewolf in London style transformation into a Miranda class starship. When the Founders realised this could be unleashed on them, they had no choice but to sue for peace. The "morphogenic virus" was merely a cover for the far more horrifying truth.
 
At this point, we could make a refit for the Zheng He to be a dedicated Science vessel. Make it both a cargo and science ship.

Saves us from making new hulls.
 
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