Starfleet Design Bureau

Just to be clear- if it took up space, this would be listed, as options which reduce internal space have been listed before. If you don't want torpedoes, then of course I respect that, but this specific reason is not true as far as I understand it.
The space may be better used for other systems as well, so forgoing the launchers entirely wouldn't be a controversial deicsion.
More generally, torpedoes have always taken up interior space. It's in every ship diagram: It's a little red room with a launcher thingy and a bunch of torpedoes stored.
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
[ ] 2: Four Phaser Emitters (+4 Average Damage) [+12 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
So... The Stingray's average damage was 1.8 before the refit, and 2.25 after. And the Skate's average damage is 4.1. So torpedoes aside, we have a choice between Stingray-like firepower and Skate-like firepower. (The NX-class has 6.25, and the Thunderchild 14.2)
 
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Ok, as things currently stand: we are spending 17 civilian and 4 Starfleet industry, unless that's changed in a way we can't see in the other updates, but I assume +industry would have been noted. This is more civilian industry than anything else we've built, which is weird. Maybe the formula changed @Sayle? Or maybe it's the new shield generators? +6 Starfleet here would bring us to 10 Starfleet, same as the non-refit Stingray. +12 would make this ship the same as the Skate and less than half of that of the Enterprise. Which, honestly, seems reasonable given size and intended role. Leaning towards 4 phasers, given all that, since they don't cost internal space.
So torpedoes aside, we have a choice between Stingray-like firepower and Skate-like firepower. (The NX-class has 6.25, and the Thunderchild 14.2)
Yeah, I think average damage on par with the Skate is wholly reasonable. The Skate is still ludicrously superior in combat from her maneuverability and alpha damage, so similar DEW firepower is ok.
 
There is a case to be made for arming a mobile sensor platform, for deployment to sensitive borders - for example, in the direction of the Romulans, they of the cobalt-jacketed nukes.

Do we want these ships to contribute firepower in the event of a crisis?
 
There is a case to be made for arming a mobile sensor platform, for deployment to sensitive borders - for example, in the direction of the Romulans, they of the cobalt-jacketed nukes.

Do we want these ships to contribute firepower in the event of a crisis?
Not particularly IMO, these were supposed to be meant for relatively safer assignments. Self defense armament in case something comes for them for whatever reason, but these probably shouldn't be seeking out fights.
 
I tend to think that if it's not mentioned is a trade-off within the vote itself, then it's probably not within the point where we should care overmuch about it, and is more along the lines of flavour text.
This is strange to me and the constraints of textual communication have me running into 'might be a dick' when I look at my first impulse on how to community my perplexity: :confused:.

It's one thing to argue that a piece of textual information might mean different things, but the words 'The space may be better used for other systems as well' can only mean 'torpedoes take up space that can be used for other useful things', and can not mean 'torpedoes do not take up space that can be used for other useful things'.

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The.... argument[?], as you stated, then comes down to 'does the QM's words outside of the voting options mean anything at all in terms of mechanics', and I feel they do, one argument in favour of that being true being:

'if the words are meaningless, then why would the QM choose words that would cause some players to think that the torpedoes take up space that can be used for other things, rather than literally any other possible sequence of words?'
 
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Do we want these ships to contribute firepower in the event of a crisis?

In all honesty, if these vessels were desperately needed for a crisis, I'd say let a refit or a different class using the same hull layout go through instead of these ships as we'll build them. We've got a pretty solid-looking foundation in our hull, I'd say, and it wouldn't surprise me if we could diversify in mission roles based on it.
 
I'm inclined to go for the higher maneuverability because of how often ships seem to need to fly around insider inexplicably dense asteroid fields and planetary rings. No torpedoes but four phasers lets us prototype, fight off attacks long enough to run away, and blast the aforementioned space rocks when they inevitably threaten the ship, a station, or some hapless colony.
 
Thank you for adding this up. Seriously.
I now know that I want to go for the smaller guns option, 100%
I'm not entirely sure I'm adding correctly. The last time we got an industry count was after we selected our saucer design. I don't know if it's changed since then, or why the civilian industry is so much higher than for anything else, including our battleship.
 
Do we want these ships to contribute firepower in the event of a crisis?

Nothing we can do to this thing will make it more than a speed bump to a crisis that involves Romulans, and if the crisis is elsewhere it's still just a floating brick. Upping the firepower higher won't be enough to turn it into something I would want to deliberately send into danger. If you are worried about it getting caught out, the bump to medium maneuvering would at least reduce the chance of something sitting in it's dead fire zones before it kicks into warp, but there should be no reason for it to be defending something like a planet it has to stay at sublight next to.



Edit: perhaps the civilian costs are the shield emitters? Brand new tech that has to be spread throughout the hull might increase the complexity enough. I think the score includes time not just raw resources?

Also the nacelles are called out explicitly as being very large, and they are new technology as well.
 
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I'm not entirely sure I'm adding correctly. The last time we got an industry count was after we selected our saucer design. I don't know if it's changed since then, or why the civilian industry is so much higher than for anything else, including our battleship.

It might well be a retooled system for how civilian and Starfleet industry works. It'd probably be something to ask @Sayle to clarify.
 
More generally, torpedoes have always taken up interior space. It's in every ship diagram: It's a little red room with a launcher thingy and a bunch of torpedoes stored.
This is strange to me and the constraints of textual communication have me running into 'might be a dick' when I look at my first impulse on how to community my perplexity: :confused:.

It's one thing to argue that a piece of textual information might mean different things, but the words 'The space may be better used for other systems as well' can only mean 'torpedoes take up space that can be used for other useful things', and can not mean 'torpedoes do not take up space that can be used for other useful things'.

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The.... argument[?], as you stated, then comes down to 'does the QM's words outside of the voting options mean anything at all in terms of mechanics', and I feel they do, one argument in favour of that being true being:

'if the words are meaningless, then why would the QM choose words that would cause some players to think that the torpedoes take up space that can be used for other things, rather than literally any other possible sequence of words?'

This is fair enough, and I may well be wrong. My reading is "eh, we can certainly use the space for something else" rather than "this cuts into internal volume which will mean less options for labs or a secondary computer core during the internals phase". This is partly because Sayle has being trying to telegraph this sort of thing much more clearly recently, so it would be odd if it were not mentioned.

@Sayle, do the torpedoes reduce internal space significantly to the point that we'll have less space for labs/auxiliary systems/etc. during the Internals phase later on?
 
We are making a science vessel, not a cruiser. There's no need for it to be especially maneuverable and have a load out of arms eclipsing the Stingray-class light cruisers or the overarmed dedicated warship of the Skate-class. Midline engines, no torpedos, and two phasor mounts are more than adequate for its actual purpose and to keep costs down to facilitate the next project.
While I agree with you, I'd take the better engines. The phasers are already mentioned to have worse firing arcs, and with less maneuverability, we'll need more coverage, which would be more expensive than just getting the better engines.
 
We are making a science vessel, not a cruiser. There's no need for it to be especially maneuverable and have a load out of arms eclipsing the Stingray-class light cruisers or the overarmed dedicated warship of the Skate-class. Midline engines, no torpedos, and two phasor mounts are more than adequate for its actual purpose and to keep costs down to facilitate the next project.
And mean a lone B'rel is an existential threat. No thank you.

Also JEBUS that warp core is ENORMOUS

If I'd known that it was going to be that large I'd have pushed for a full engineering hull and hang the costs, because there's bare enough room after the thing for anything else!

Honestly Sayle if we're going to see this kind of size jump in equipment this is the kind of thing we need to know before starting a hull so we can accommodate it- frankly looking at that monster I'm inclined to round file the current hull and go to a full secondary engineering hull at least equal in volume to the current saucer, because as it is we'll be lucky to cram a lab and computer core and nothing else on the thing after it's armed!

Speaking of which, yes torpedoes, yes four phasers as long as they aren't over double the size like that warp core, yes pylon drives. I'd rather a mediocre Science vessel that can at least shoot its way out of a wet paper bag than an expensive floating target that's still not very good at its job.
 
It might well be a retooled system for how civilian and Starfleet industry works. It'd probably be something to ask @Sayle to clarify.

Civilians take care of everything but the shields, phasers, and torpedoes. I'm thinking of abstracting it to "cost", whereas industry might be read as something more like capacity.

@Sayle, do the torpedoes reduce internal space significantly to the point that we'll have less space for labs/auxiliary systems/etc. during the Internals phase later on?

Yes it would impinge on the space where you have to mount the torpedoes. I tend to think of +Internal Space being options that are "you embiggen the ship", but now you're putting things in the internal space so there isn't extra to add, just space to use.
 
No coverage and no maneuverability seems like a dangerous combination.

[ ] 0: Dual Engines (Maneuverability: Medium) [+4 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
 
Civilians take care of everything but the shields, phasers, and torpedoes. I'm thinking of abstracting it to "cost", whereas industry might be read as something more like capacity.



Yes it would impinge on the space where you have to mount the torpedoes. I tend to think of +Internal Space being options that are "you embiggen the ship", but now you're putting things in the internal space so there isn't extra to add, just space to use.
Ok, follow-up question: why does this design break so far free of the usual civilian industry costs? (Closer to 20 than 10). Second follow-up question, will we have a second vote where we decide on adding shields, and would that be additional Starfleet industry? That's very relevant information for adding the phasers.
 
Looking at the free space I am now exceptionally glad we did not go for the smaller hulls.
There would have been no way to know though. I think this is just a lucky thing in hindsight.

With the conversation pointing out the phasers having reduced coverage and only being on one side of the ship I am more inclined to go the two engines, but I do worry this is scope creep.
 
Ok, follow-up question: why does this design break so far free of the usual civilian industry costs? (Closer to 20 than 10). Second follow-up question, will we have a second vote where we decide on adding shields, and would that be additional Starfleet industry? That's very relevant information for adding the phasers.

The new warp engine and nacelle designs are more expensive. You have 4.5x the mass of the Skate so the hull costs more. Shields are still correlated with mass so are automatically calculated into Starfleet cost.

Honestly Sayle if we're going to see this kind of size jump in equipment this is the kind of thing we need to know before starting a hull so we can accommodate it- frankly looking at that monster I'm inclined to round file the current hull and go to a full secondary engineering hull at least equal in volume to the current saucer, because as it is we'll be lucky to cram a lab and computer core and nothing else on the thing after it's armed!

Eh. I'm not married to the 3 decks size and it'll probably get shuffled around to something more like two decks once other systems start squeezing in places.
 
I think that given the design spec here, I have to support

[ ] 0: Dual Engines (Maneuverability: Medium) [+4 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]

The extra space torps would take is better allocated to science, and maybe some manufacturing. We definitely need to prototype the phasers. Given the number of negative space wedgies in Trek that need you to 'give it all she's got' with the engines, I feel like not having the extra oomph is going to result in dead ships.
 
So... The Stingray's average damage was 1.8 before the refit, and 2.25 after. And the Skate's average damage is 4.1. So torpedoes aside, we have a choice between Stingray-like firepower and Skate-like firepower. (The NX-class has 6.25, and the Thunderchild 14.2)

I think this may be somewhat misleading; what made the Skate truly dangerous was its Alpha Strike and Maximum Sustained Damage scores, not its Average Damage. Burst firepower and ability to focus fire on a single target (rather than firepower average across all damage arcs) is quite significant in a fight. The Merchant class has an average damage not that different from the Stingray, but there is a notable difference in combat power.

Now, this ship certainly does not need to be as capable in a fight as our roided-out attack ship from the last war. But I think that is not true to say that their firepower would be equivalent.

Do we want these ships to contribute firepower in the event of a crisis?
Nope, it is intended to survey the space that makes now up the Federation. Large parts of it aren't a propper survey yet. That's it.
Not particularly IMO, these were supposed to be meant for relatively safer assignments. Self defense armament in case something comes for them for whatever reason, but these probably shouldn't be seeking out fights.

This is true, although I would note that due to how big the Federation is and how relatively slow our warp drives are, if this ship is the closest to a distress call, it's more likely than not that the next closest ship is weeks or months away. This is especially true given its mission profile is surveying or studying stellar nurseries in the ass-end of nowhere. This does not mean it needs to be able to fight warships, but scaring off pirates is a plausible thing the ship may be asked to do, or at least, the capability is unlikely to go unused if it is there.

Arming it beyond that would be going significantly past the brief, although a scout ship would not be useless once the work of routine surveying has been done, and the Federation finds itself wanting to patrol the Romulan neutral zone and face down growing tensions with the Klingons.

One thing to remember: the brief is often shortsighted. We have found multiple times in the last quest that giving a ship extra capabilities can actually future-proof it.

Yes it would impinge on the space where you have to mount the torpedoes. I tend to think of +Internal Space being options that are "you embiggen the ship", but now you're putting things in the internal space so there isn't extra to add, just space to use.

So apologies for belabouring the point here, but just to be clear, what you're saying is that when we get to the Internals phase, if we have torpedoes, we will have less space than if we had not taken them?

In that case it definitely seems like a bit more of a stretch to include them.
 
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