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0t4n1z3r019 said:
Skipping on impulse engines because 'we have Warp Drives' is a sure thing that will cost us a ship.

It's just a few more industry points to add, yet some still feel they want to shortchange the ship and its future crew. :eyeroll::eyeroll:
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Whilst I don't agree with it, I can see the argument against torpedoes if people are really committed to it for cost reasons, although I think it would limit the class's viability as a scout in the next war we find ourselves in. (Extra phasers are easier to retrofit on.) But losing on impulse power, especially when it costs Civ Ind and not Stf Ind, seems like a big mistake to me.

Tylonius said:
Torpedoes take up space that can be used on Science modules. We do not impede the science. No Torps.
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Just to be clear- if it took up space, this would be listed, as options which reduce internal space have been listed before. If you don't want torpedoes, then of course I respect that, but this specific reason is not true as far as I understand it.
 
i say we keep it light. if we need we can upgrade later. but i am pro letting the industry build more in the BG and crank more of these ship out.
 
[ ] 0: Dual Engines (Maneuverability: Medium) [+4 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes

So OK maneuverability, no torps really needed from my end. This gives us the ability for some delicate probing.

[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
[ ] 2: Four Phaser Emitters (+4 Average Damage) [+12 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]

Torn here. Personally I feel we should go for all 4, but I'm OK with just 2. It's not like we should be putting these where they'll routinely need 4 emitters.
 
Torpedo-wise, if we had an option for only one launcher, fore or aft, I'd be all in. As it stands though, up-gunning a science ship this much without making it able to also act as a probe launcher seems somewhat wasteful industry-wise to me.
 
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]

Emitters is a sure pick for me- get the prototype out of the way here so we have it ready for the next ship. Probably go with higher maneuver but no torpedoes
 
I think he's agreeing with you there. 2 engines are better than one, especially if something smacks the engine hard enough.
 
For once I do not think full gun is a good idea this one is a low threat environment surveyor. It will be used to discover resources deposits scout out habitable wolds, search archelogical sites and so on. why would it need orpedoes or full gun loadout. If this ship gets attacked its dead anyway.
That said here would by my preference:
[ ] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
 
The hilarious option of sticking on ALL THE GUNS of course appeals to special places in my heart to make a fantastic war scout or proto-Voyager/Nova class....

0t4n1z3r019 said:
You're being stingy on 2 industrial points that will be used? 'A Mistake' even?

Oh boy, I can't wait to see how losing your sole Impulse Engine do to the ship.
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I think you are misunderstanding him - It sounds like you are BOTH in favor of the double-engine setup.
 
Two engines is definitely key. Maneuverability at sublight is important and has caused problems when we haven't taken it.

I wish we could fit a single torpedo, but if we can't we are absolutely losing lab space to mount 2. 2 or 4 phasers, I think 2 is ok, but 4 might be better.
 
Takareer said:
I think torpedoes are important due to their non-tactical uses. Disrupting negative space wedgies with a photon torpedo, or sending something unusual down the launch tube in a torpedo casing, are all valuable additions to have.
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Sensor Probes should be a thing in this era, and they can do basically everything a torpedo could in a pinch... well, except "be a torpedo" - asking the Chief Engineer to duct-tape a spare antimatter trap into a probe is probably a terrible idea.
 
Sayle said:
Civilian Contractors: 17 Industry
Starfleet Manufacturing: 4 Industry
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This was the state of things 2 turns ago.

Increasing civilian industry by +2 or +4 is small potatoes compared to the +6 to +18 range of starfleet industry that could be spent.

The fewer weapons it has, the vastly more that starfleet can afford to build - on the order of doubling/halving the number of ships - while the engine only makes something like a 10% difference in how many the civilian industry can afford to make.

It makes more sense to go for the dual engines with a minimal armament, because a more maneuverable ship can use that minimal armament more effectively.
 
Bedpotato said:
For once I do not think full gun is a good idea this one is a low threat environment surveyor. It will be used to discover resources deposits scout out habitable wolds, search archelogical sites and so on. why would it need orpedoes or full gun loadout. If this ship gets attacked its dead anyway.
That said here would by my preference:
[ ] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
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I don't this ship is expendable in the slightest. We have at most a few dozen ships in the fleet, given our catastrophic losses in the war, and this ship is 1.8x the mass of the Stingray, with a crew to match. That's not a ship we can afford to give up to any random hostile. She should at least have the engines to get away.

Edit: in fact, we basically don't have a single expendable vessel. The Skate was during the war, but with the war over even the remaining Skates should be preserved.
 
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[ ] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 0: Dual Engines (Maneuverability: Medium) [+4 Civilian Industry]
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Hm. I'm leaning towards dual engines since low maneuverability isn't acceptable even for a survey vessel imo.

[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 1: Two Forward Photonics (+7.5 Burst Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry]
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Unfortunate. Guess no torps it is, since two is too many for a survey vessel.

[ ] 2: Two Phase Cannons (+1.25 Average Damage) [+4 Starfleet Industry]
[ ] 2: Four Phase Cannons (+2.5 Average Damage) [+8 Starfleet Industry]
[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
[ ] 2: Four Phaser Emitters (+4 Average Damage) [+12 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
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Goes to show how outdated and underpowered Phase Cannons are these days when two Phasers can almost equal the output of twice their number of Phase Cannons. Anyway, leaning towards two atm since four might be pushing it?
 
Second impulse engine takes up space for science. Torpedo launcher takes up space for science. Phasers do not take up space, and need to be prototyped.

[ ] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 1: No Torpedoes
[ ] 2: Four Phaser Emitters (+4 Average Damage) [+12 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]
 
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Hmm, alright no prototype impulse, but we do actually have the new phasers.

I'm leaning towards being fine with either engine setup, no torps, and either two or four of the new phasers then.

I know I said I wanted minimum phasers, but that was when I was assuming that we'd get 4 as the low option, and it's saying that the new emitters have reduced firing arc. I can certainly see arguments for just two though, given it costs twice as much for a ship mostly meant to be on safe assignments, and possibly any extra internal space taken up by the extra pair.
 
Skippy said:
Just to be clear- if it took up space, this would be listed, as options which reduce internal space have been listed before. If you don't want torpedoes, then of course I respect that, but this specific reason is not true as far as I understand it.
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It says it in the text, and that is more than enough for me.
 
Haven had caught up, I'm now unsure what emitters option I want most. Maybe 2 is enough.

Honestly, such a question boils down to 'what is the total projected Starfleet Industry cost of the ship?'

If the ship costs 15 or less without guns, then maybe it's not worth spending an additional 6 industry on it. If the ship costs 30 or more, then I'd be inclined to spend the extra industry.

Skippy said:
Just to be clear- if it took up space, this would be listed, as options which reduce internal space have been listed before. If you don't want torpedoes, then of course I respect that, but this specific reason is not true as far as I understand it.
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Written in the updoot:
[On Torpedos]: The space may be better used for other systems as well, so forgoing the launchers entirely wouldn't be a controversial deicsion.
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[ ] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[ ] 0: Dual Engines (Maneuverability: Medium) [+4 Civilian Industry]

[ ] 1: No Torpedoes

[ ] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]

These are the options I'm happy with.
It might have been contentious for the option for a single torpedo, but two are right out.
Phasers are a no brainer I feel due to previous consensus on test bed but there is no reason for more than the minimum... Also they are expensive.

I think the only real argument this time is the engines, and given the costs involved it's a low stakes one. I lean towards two despite my arguments for keeping costs down because the idea of "low" rating hurts me and I feel it might impact the reputation the ship has in general.

It might science like a dream, but people will remember if it turns like a cow :p

But if midline gets it, that's also not going to leave me feeling like we made a huge mistake.
 
[X] 0: Midline Engine (Maneuverability: Low) [+2 Civilian Industry]
[X] 1: No Torpedoes
[X] 2: Two Phaser Emitters (+2 Average Damage) [+6 Starfleet Industry] [Prototype]


Maneurability is noice, no need for torps really, ok opportunity to test a prototype and have the emitters as a non-prototype option for the next design.
 
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Zimmerwald1915 said:
Second impulse engine takes up space for science. Torpedo launcher takes up space for science. Phasers do not take up space, and need to be prototyped.
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With the warp drive completed, there's only a few major pieces left to install before moving onto the auxiliary systems. First is the impulse engines, where you are faced with the choice of either using a midline engine above the shuttlebay or a pair mounted to the nacelle struts.
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I can see a dual engine increasing the ships mass - simply by there being twice the engine, but where are you getting the 'dual engine takes up more space' from? 'cuz to me it reads like the engines are bolted on to the outside of the ship.
 
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