Starfleet Design Bureau

That's another issue, we know we have max cruise, but what's the range on it? Is it like 4x the fuel usage, or 1.2x? Is there increased wear and tear/maintenance requirements, or is it purely a fuel usage thing? It's hard to make strategy on assumptions.
[ ] Cruise Nacelles [5.4 Cruise, 6 Max Cruise, 7 Max Warp] [Operating Range: 78ly]
[ ] Catamaran Nacelles [5.2 Cruise, 6.2 Max Cruise, 7.2 Max Warp] [Operating Range: 70ly]
Given that the operating ranges on these map out very evenly to six months at Efficient Cruise at either 157c or 140c, while Max Cruise is 216c and 238c, that provides a minimum floor for how much less fuel efficient it must be.

EDIT: Given that it'd be 0.4 years and 0.3 years respectively for the same distance at Max Cruise, I'm gonna wager that Max Cruise is entirely defined as the highest speed that can be maintained indefinitely, and thus has no set relationship in fuel economy. The range between Max Cruise and Max Warp is a reducing scale of how long the engine itself can maintain that speed, with going over Max Warp being the point where you start rolling the dice on your ship just exploding.
 
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The Kea's warp speed allowed them to pick and choose what fights it wanted to take, which was important considering it lacked torpedoes until its refits. If Cruise had won, they'd have the same max speed as the Archer, but without any torpedoes. I think the Kea had more significant problems: their lack of sublight maneuverability, their small range of 70 LY, and their limited tactical capabilities until after their refits.



Frankly, the idea we should start arguing over sprint or cruise for the next ship before even knowing what it's supposed to do seems a waste of time.
My goal wasn't to start an argument, I'm just trying to make others aware of a pattern.

I'd argue the Archer made a good choice at the time given the Kea at 7.6 could easily outrun a D6 and Archers needed to run from them or worse a D7, and the nacelles boosted maximum cruise which means it gets where it is going faster. But the Kea itself? Yeah Cruise would have been a better pick.
I hate to disagree, but the Klingons had warp 8 earlier, we knew they'd probably be able to retrofit it onto their warp 7 fleet. By the time hostilities broke out and evasion would be valuable the Klingons were virtually guaranteed to have many warp 8 ships. It really was a weird bit of reasoning.


Again the tricky thing is maximum cruise vs efficient cruise, if we assume efficient cruise is purely for long range economy and within the federation everyone does max cruise it holds more water and cruise is useless, if there are elevated maintenance costs or really significant increases in fuel cost for max cruise then cruise is very valuable.
 
I'd argue the Archer made a good choice at the time given the Kea at 7.6 could easily outrun a D6 and Archers needed to run from them or worse a D7, and the nacelles boosted maximum cruise which means it gets where it is going faster. But the Kea itself? Yeah Cruise would have been a better pick.
I do not agree.

We have had it emphatically reinforced that, with the exception of certain ship classes *cough* Archer *cough* whose non-combat duties are disproportionately important to Starfleet's strategic planning?
ALL starships are combat vessels and will be expected to carry their weight.

Starfleet cant afford many non-combat specialists.

Which means that all ship design bureaus have to keep in mind that, regardless of its other design functions, Starfleet will throw their designs into combat with peer navies and expect them to perform. That, when, say, Starfleet calls for all warships across tens of light years to assemble in the defense of Andoria, maximum cruise becomes a strategic imperative.

So no, the Kea very much warranted Sprint, both because higher max cruise and because sprint has tactical implications.
My goal wasn't to start an argument, I'm just trying to make others aware of a pattern.


I hate to disagree, but the Klingons had warp 8 earlier, we knew they'd probably be able to retrofit it onto their warp 7 fleet. By the time hostilities broke out and evasion would be valuable the Klingons were virtually guaranteed to have many warp 8 ships. It really was a weird bit of reasoning.


Again the tricky thing is maximum cruise vs efficient cruise, if we assume efficient cruise is purely for long range economy and within the federation everyone does max cruise it holds more water and cruise is useless, if there are elevated maintenance costs or really significant increases in fuel cost for max cruise then cruise is very valuable.
I strongly suspect this is not true.
Sayle has made it clear that the bottleneck on shipbuilding for us, and presumably for the Klingons as well, is the availability of strategic materials. Dilithium, et cetera.

Given as the aftermath of the Battle of Andoria has the Klingons currently cannibalizing D6s in order to finish newbuild D7s, I think it is sensible to question if the Klingon Empire had the strategic material supplies to perform warp drive upgrades for all, or even most of its D6s and Birds of Prey.

Certainly we see no evidence of any Warp 8 vessels in this war besides the D7s.

Similarly, there is the question of whether it would be financially or strategically sensible for the Klingons to upgrade a lastgen ship to Warp 8 drives and all the necessary improvements to make it work instead of building a currentgen warship design with currentgen systems.

A major refit is a pretty significant outlay of resources, both in manpower, shipyard capacity and time.
It might be technically feasible to do a refit, but still be a better idea to simply scrap the ship and recycle the materials to build a new one if you have a new design available. After all, the Klingons built the D7 instead of just upgrading the D6's warp drives.


And that brings us to the final factor: Build capacity.

Major refits require full shipyard capacity and subcomponent manufacturing for a significant fraction of the time it would take to build a new ship; for a RL example, scheduled maintenance and upgrades for the submarine USS Miami was supposed to take 20 months, or almost 50% of the time it took to build it originally.

Note that, starting in 2232, the Klingon Empire was mass-building D7s for most of the decade before the outbreak of the Four-Year War. I suspect that there was no spare shipbuilding capacity or resources to engage in a major fleetwide refit program for lastgen ships. Not and still accomplish regular day to day duties.
 
Just went back and looked at the Pharos. This whole time I've been banging on about their repair capacity and how great that is...

Service dock won the vote, not repair. They refuel civilians from a variety of technological bases, not repair ships.

Well. That's embarrassing.

It does have space docks. so it can house ships safely and presumably allow minor repair, but not the same thing really.
 
Wouldn't that mean it lent itself well to expanding and maintaining the Federation's territory, what with enabling more civilian shipping by being a handy refueling port?
 
Wouldn't that mean it lent itself well to expanding and maintaining the Federation's territory, what with enabling more civilian shipping by being a handy refueling port?

That is specifically called out yes. Also of note is that a single station is enough to run the majority of Starfleet of the time, these things likely dropped the cost of supplying anti-matter to rock-bottom prices total costs compared to before.

Of note is the station's egalitarian approach to civilian usage, which will allow a substantial coterie of vessels to dock and make use of its refueling and repair services, the latter of which represents a major advantage to non-military vessels that often have fewer layers of redundancy for key systems and can often accumulate wear over time that borders on the unsafe. Not only will the station be a useful intermediary point to reduce travel time, but its fabrication facilities can produce many of the minor but difficult to source civilian-grade parts.

The Fabrication we added said:
The second option is fabrication centers. Given the larger spaces available on the station it allows the installation of enormous and power-intensive machinery which is unavailable to starships. While not quite able to produce the complexities of the truly crucial starship components that require multiple square kilometers and profoundly complicated supply chains, it can nonetheless produce an appreciable bulk of simpler equipment like hull plating, power conduits, and the miscellaneous technological widgets that keep ships running without needing to import the finished products.
 
It should have, but apparently it only helped in going wider while doing nothing to help get taller.
Presumably because the effects of going taller only are beginning to reveal themselves now, when the need for crash building starships is necessary.

Let's wait to see how the Four Years War turned out before genuflecting on how the larger logistical chain build has worked out for Starfleet
 
Growing Tall takes time. All those small colonies eventually start turning into big colonies, but population growth isn't instant.
Starfleet does apparently already have more cruiser yards though.
 
Sayle has made it clear that the bottleneck on shipbuilding for us, and presumably for the Klingons as well, is the availability of strategic materials. Dilithium, et cetera.
Sayle has made it clear that the Federation's systems are genuinely pressed to physical limits because there's no built-in political fuckery messing with it, and that this isn't true of all the other powers around it, specifically calling out the Klingons on this.
My interpretation has always been that the post-scarcity Federation of TNG in particular was always limited by the flow of rare materials needed for starships rather than the problems that other polities might have based on supply-and-demand economies. You can't build a new Ferengi Marauder if the one component that's actually rare is going for 10x its actual value because you're getting ripped off and the seller is happy to sit on it until you get desperate enough. Or sabotages production to drive up the value of their stock. Or in the Klingon Empire your dilithium supply is being sat on by a rival House.
As for the Klingon shipbuilding capacity it should be mentioned that the Klingon economy isn't exactly smooth in the way of a free-movement-of-goods-and-capital model. You can't just buy a lot of the things you need from somewhere else - it essentially runs on pure protectionism and ahem... alternative income sources for each individual House. Loot then burn, and so forth.

Such a system is very capable of piling up a big pile of non-perishable loot over a prolonged period of time and then spending it very quickly. If the the Moon blew up tomorrow and ecologically devastated Earth the Federation would probably have an economic slump for a decade and some major relocation projects. When Praxis blows in the 2290s, the Klingon economy disintegrates. They go from being a peer threat to the Federation to gasping for Federation-senpai to give them foreign aid.
The Klingons are like a dozen minor-power economies welded together into a single empire. Often working at cross-purposes, but quite frightening when they aren't.

As for upgrading to Warp Eight Engines, I will point out that we had the option for an upgrade that did not require yard time.
Currently there are two metrics to keep in mind: the availability date, which represents when you can expect to have enough of the engine finalised and available to plan around; and whether or not the Warp 8 Engine will be backwards compatible for designs currently running the Warp 7 block. If it is fully compatible, the engine can simply be swapped out with its predecessor. If it requires a refit, then yardtime and priority management means much of the Warp 7 fleet will likely be left with the old engine. If it is incompatible, only next-generation starships will be able to use the Warp 8 Engine.
 
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Sayle has made it clear that the Federation's systems are genuinely pressed to physical limits because there's no built-in political fuckery messing with it, and that this isn't true of all the other powers around it, specifically calling out the Klingons on this.
Yeah.
So the Klingons, for example, have to worry about political fuckery in addition to actual manufacturing constraints and strategic materials supply.

As for upgrading to Warp Eight Engines, I will point out that we had the option for an upgrade that did not require yard time.
It doesnt say that though? All it says is that the length of yardtime would make a fleetwide refit unfeasible.
Doesnt mean that it wont require yardtime to replace the hundreds (thousands???) of tons of warp drive componnts with a new system, even with a fully back-compatible warp 8 drive.

To my understanding, [Can be simply swapped out] still requires that you get the ship into a yard with skilled workers to swap out those nacelles, just like swapping the engine on a plane for a new model requires factory/major depot work.
Still requires that those nacelles will be manufactured as well, then tuned in place.

A refit, on the other hand, is a much more extensive process, and is going to involve the upgrade/replacement/modification of other systems in addition to the warp drives.
Ship computers. Weapons systems(specifically torpedoes). Sensors.
 
Refitting the Warp system would have been a significant refit anyway. It's not just the core - you'd have to go over everything connected to it to check for unexpected faults, probably replace a lot of the conduits and such anyway because you might as well make sure everything's up to date, update the engineering section... it would have taken yard time regardless.

And not to beat a dead horse, but this was going to happen sooner or later and we chose to take it on the chin and go for 'sooner.' Transitioning to a vertical warp core was an inevitability, it was a matter of whether it happened at the Warp 8 or Warp 9 tech threshold
 
Oh my gods.

Why is this still going on.

Please guys, nothing of positive value can be produced from this discussion.
Clarification requested, do you think this discussion is becoming stale or toxic? Because I've seen a couple of eye-opening comments tbh, and I've seen many interesting insights and at least one reply that seems very plausible that could well indicate one my premises is entirely flawed. I'm having a great time.

And not to beat a dead horse, but this was going to happen sooner or later and we chose to take it on the chin and go for 'sooner.' Transitioning to a vertical warp core was an inevitability, it was a matter of whether it happened at the Warp 8 or Warp 9 tech threshold
I agree, and you know the flip side? We're about to come out of what would've been a really nasty ditch with lots more momentum than we would've, and we're about to have at least 20 years of riding downhill, spitting out ever-increasing numbers of ships with extra buffs. So long as we stay onto it, we're cruising into easy street.
 
Clarification requested, do you think this discussion is becoming stale or toxic? Because I've seen a couple of eye-opening comments tbh, and I've seen many interesting insights and at least one reply that seems very plausible that could well indicate one my premises is entirely flawed. I'm having a great time.
It's mostly the constant "Why is Starfleet not building more ships" that gets me. We have the answer "Limited strategic resources" that gets "Why aren't they being extracted maximally" and a 'No, they already are', then repeat from the start "Why not more ships" which seems to keep looping around every other page.
 
It's mostly the constant "Why is Starfleet not building more ships" that gets me. We have the answer "Limited strategic resources" that gets "Why aren't they being extracted maximally" and a 'No, they already are', then repeat from the start "Why not more ships" which seems to keep looping around every other page.
The question keeps getting asked because we've been told more than once in the updates that we don't have enough ships even without wartime chewing up the Fleet to adequately police non-Core sectors of our territory.
 
There is, of course, something Starfleet can do to have more ships capable of defending the borders that we didn't do in the quest timeline. It's been repeated frequently enough in quest:

Don't spend significant amounts of Starfleet's shipbuilding resources on ships that can't fight.

People just don't like that answer.
 
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