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Starfleet Design Bureau

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Fouredged Sword said:
The numbers as given don't make sense producing a result other than the Federation losing to the Klingons.
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The Klingons aren't a solidly united polity, and one of their massed attacks just got totally wiped out.

If there isn't an immediate firing circle over who's to blame for all the losses against an easy target, it's because the Klingon leadership is burning resources to delay it.

That that massed attack was probably a concentration of the forces of one internal faction or another - a faction that has just gotten much weaker, and came from one of the more aggressive wings at that - won't help.

Edit: Also. Klingons need to maintain a certain minimum amount of firepower just to maintain their empire; if they don't have forces going around to collect taxes, their holdings break away. It's the old predator vs. herbivore dichotomy: predators are, by necessity, cowards. Herbivores go down trying to take you with them.
 
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I mean it looks like the Klingon State has more industry than the Federation, if they can build dozens of D-7s while the Federation has build.. uh, a (singular) dozen Excalibur in that same timeframe, it kind of looks pretty gloomy? It's one thing to be outmatched militarily while you try and quickly build up a military force to close a military force gap, it's quite another to actually just be out-industrial capability'ed while also being out-military'ed.
 
landcollector said:
So, Current Status is "We're pretty much done unless A) Something else notices a weak front elsewhere along the Empire's borders and gets them to break off from curbstomping us, or B) Overconfidence or internal divisions cause significant and prolonged strategic and tactical blunders on the Empire's part.", then?
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Given they have at minimum a fleet four times our size, got first strike becuase intel is incompetent and can right now go for a decapitation strike that is sure to Gut our ability to fight them ever again if in the unlikely event we win? Pretty much.


Given the Klingons can make 80 D7s not counting d6s in the same time it takes us to make a Dozen Excaliburs, they have us beat in pretty much every metric, fleet size, fleet veterancy, Industrial planning and capability, and ability to use it. We can't win unless they somehow screw up or someone else saves our asses.
 
CuriousRaptor said:
Given they have at minimum a fleet four times our size, got first strike becuase intel is incompetent and can right now go for a decapitation strike that is sure to Gut our ability to fight them ever again if in the unlikely event we win? Pretty much.


Given the Klingons can make 80 D7s not counting d6s in the same time it takes us to make a Dozen Excaliburs, they have us beat in pretty much every metric, fleet size, fleet veterancy, Industrial planning and capability, and ability to use it. We can't win unless they somehow screw up or someone else saves our asses.
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Because the Klingons are WWII Germany in this situation. Just because they could take over Spain doesn't mean they put afford to. There are other powers they're currently engaged with the require the bulk of their forces. This is a resource raid and flag rally.
 
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CuriousRaptor said:
Given they have at minimum a fleet four times our size, got first strike becuase intel is incompetent and can right now go for a decapitation strike that is sure to Gut our ability to fight them ever again if in the unlikely event we win? Pretty much.


Given the Klingons can make 80 D7s not counting d6s in the same time it takes us to make a Dozen Excaliburs, they have us beat in pretty much every metric, fleet size, fleet veterancy, Industrial planning and capability, and ability to use it. We can't win unless they somehow screw up or someone else saves our asses.
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True, though I'll say it is a good thing we have Pike. I think it's possible this may be where he starts getting a big reputation actually, seems as good a time as any to be honest.
 
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]

The loss of internal space sucks. But I'm done with having any of our ships be under-armed for a dangerous galaxy, specialist or not.
 
Obviously it isn't 'canon' either in general or to this quest, but DITL* makes a good argument (for a non-DIS informed**) Starfleet being somewhere between 100 and 'several hundred' starships. If we had a fleet of 300 the initial losses wouldn't be 28% of our fleet they'd be 14%, and if we had a fleet of 500 it'd be 8.4%

All of these number are still significant, severely limiting our war fighting potential (especially offensively rather than defensively), but less of a case of 'oh shit we've got basically nothing!' than we've got right now.

*The Size of Starfleet - Notes
**since it outright gives a number not far below 8,000

Of course, a lot of this panic on our part could be alleviated if we knew what Starfleet Intel estimates building capacity and ship numbers for the Empire at. The situation wouldn't look as overwhelmingly terrible as it does now.
Even if we've not got the right clearance for highly sensitive Starfleet Intel, given we're the primary design group and shipyard for Starfleet you think we'd get something at least.
 
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher (Cost 53 -> 65)
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]
 
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Wootius said:
Because the Klingons are WWII Germany in this situation. Just because they could take over Spain doesn't mean they put afford to.
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This is true, but that is solidly under "Counting on them to screw up" not something we have control over. They can still utterly ravage our core worlds and send us back years or even decades in development even if they don't conquer us wholly, making us a juicy target for next time.
 
[X] Two Forward Torpedoes, Two Aft (Cost: 53 -> 62) [-1 Modules]

The RFL would be nice, but two tubes in the space of one for less cost is absolutely acceptable
 
Tank man said:
Obviously it isn't 'canon' either in general or to this quest, but DITL* makes a good argument (for a non-DIS informed**) Starfleet being somewhere between 100 and 'several hundred' starships. If we had a fleet of 300 the initial losses wouldn't be 28% of our fleet they'd be 14%, and if we had a fleet of 500 it'd be 8.4%

All of these number are still significant, severely limiting our war fighting potential (especially offensively rather than defensively), but less of a case of 'oh shit we've got basically nothing!' than we've got right now.

*The Size of Starfleet - Notes
**since it outright gives a number not far below 8,000

Of course, a lot of this panic on our part could be alleviated if we knew what Starfleet Intel estimates building capacity and ship numbers for the Empire at. The situation wouldn't look as overwhelmingly terrible as it does now.
Even if we've not got the right clearance for highly sensitive Starfleet Intel, given we're the primary design group and shipyard for Starfleet you think we'd get something at least.
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We have word of god we have 150 ships, that's ALL we have until the next tranche comes off the lines in a year or two
 
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]

I think we can eat the cost for this one, seems the war is going bad for us, Id rather be starfleet then conqured klingon starship design bureau
 
[x] Two Forward Torpedoes (Cost: 53 -> 57.5)

Low cost and more space for science. At the same time, it has enough firepower to defend itself from threats.
 
[] Forward Rapid Launcher (Cost 53 -> 65)
[] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]

Has to be a Rapid Launcher option. I don't think an upgrade over the Newton's phasers alone is going to be enough, especially if phasers are now going to be scaled by mass; the Darwin is lighter than the Newton.

I think, for our next ship, something relatively cheap but with very heavy shields for a line-of-battle craft would be advised - barring Starfleet Tactical telling us they've come up with a radical new theory of battle and have successfully implemented it.

[x] Two Forward Torpedoes, Two Aft (Cost: 53 -> 62) [-1 Modules]
 
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Fouredged Sword said:
The problem is that the numbers must be wrong for things to make sense. The numbers as given don't make sense producing a result other than the Federation losing to the Klingons.

This is the point where time agents intervene to correct the timeline and frankly I don't feel that is a satisfying narrative.
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CuriousRaptor said:
We can't win unless they somehow screw up or someone else saves our asses.
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The Excalibur retrospective shows the Federation surviving the war. That was the state of the future when we started designing this ship*; I don't see how this ship can make things turn out worse.

Unless you are positing that our war-losing decision was not designing the defense satellites?

Sayle said:
The outbreak of open war with the Klingon Empire in the spring of 2240 threw Starfleet on the back foot, and further orders of starships with secondary tactical roles were suspended. Instead in 2241 a further six Excalibur-class vessels were ordered and entered production, those being Dyrnwyn, Damocles, Dainsleif, Gram, Naegling, and Fragarach. The crash-builds saw the ships launch in late 2243 in time for the counteroffensive of early 2244.

After the war...
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Just make sure this ship is decent tactically, and watch the narrative unfold. There's no need to start catastrophizing based on one scary update.

[ ] Two Forward Torpedoes (Cost: 53 -> 57.5)
[X] Two Forward Torpedoes, Two Aft (Cost: 53 -> 62) [-1 Modules]
[ ] Forward Rapid Launcher (Cost 53 -> 65)
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]


* Time-travel tenses are fun.
 
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landcollector said:
I would like the answer to my question about RFL Production capabilities before voting, honestly.
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The mechanics aren't that granular. It gets lumped into whole-cost metrics.

As for the Klingon shipbuilding capacity it should be mentioned that the Klingon economy isn't exactly smooth in the way of a free-movement-of-goods-and-capital model. You can't just buy a lot of the things you need from somewhere else - it essentially runs on pure protectionism and ahem... alternative income sources for each individual House. Loot then burn, and so forth.

Such a system is very capable of piling up a big pile of non-perishable loot over a prolonged period of time and then spending it very quickly. If the the Moon blew up tomorrow and ecologically devastated Earth the Federation would probably have an economic slump for a decade and some major relocation projects. When Praxis blows in the 2290s, the Klingon economy disintegrates. They go from being a peer threat to the Federation to gasping for Federation-senpai to give them foreign aid.
 
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[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]

Even with the 2x aft torpedoes were still going to have 1x more module than the spiritual ancestor of this ship (the Cygnus-class), and for the ability to give us a ton of extra tactical utility in an era that'll need it (the rough decade after the end of the war) on a ship that's going to be brushing up against danger I'd say it's a worthwhile trade off.
 
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[X] Forward Rapid Launcher (Cost 53 -> 65)
[x] Two Forward Torpedoes (Cost: 53 -> 57.5)

Not sacrificing science on the altar of fear. If you wanted aft dps, you should have voted for the phaser. :V
 
[X] Two Forward Torpedoes, Two Aft (Cost: 53 -> 62) [-1 Modules]
[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]

I'm torn between these two, so I'll pick them both.

If the two forward, two aft won, then cool.

If the one forward rapid, two aft won, also cool for me.
 
So what would be general estimates for following?

Frigate Escort?
Cruiser Escort?
Heavy Cruiser Escort?
Excalibur Refit?
Dreadnaught? Pretty much a souped up Excalibur that has a full saucer and phasers matching its insane torpedo banks?

Unlikely but I thought we still have access to cloaking technology post Romulian War, unless Section 31 pulled a ONI and kept cloaking for their secret personal ships?
 
They rolled out the Ares-class (this is Axanar continunity), but the Excalibur .. supercedes it.
I'll be honest, that update makes me wonder..

[X] Forward Rapid Launcher, Two Aft Torpedoes (Cost 53 -> 69.5) [-1 Modules]
 
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