Starfleet Design Bureau

As expected, the Klingons were also shipbuilding.

Makes sense that new Klingon construction has quality issues; the loss of the naval task force their ex-Chancellor took to Andoria was probably unexpected, and caused the acceleration of the new builds in the shipyards.
After all, a janky D7 is still better than a D6.

Equally as serious will have been the loss of experienced ship crews at Andoria. But thats harder to quantify.



Forty thousand dead civilians is low for an orbital bombardment.

But for a population that had already taken shelter in pre-built, underground infrastructure, thats actually concerningly high given the Star Trek techbase, and points at an actual serious attempt to cause civilian casualties. Somewhere like Earth, where the populations live largely above ground, would probably be looking at casualties three orders of magnitude greater.

And Im not factoring in biosphere and infrastructural damage. Little wonder the Andorians really dislike Karhammur.
I foresee an expansion of the Andorian Imperial Guard in the near future.
And other Member Fleets for that matter.


House Duras is historically Romulan-friendly and Federation-skeptical.
The ascension of Koval Duras to Chancellorship means that while he lives, we cant expect Klingon foreign policy to change, even if they lack the naval power to press the issue with the Federation. Still gonna expect border incidents and provocations.


I don't think the Andorians would be willing to settle for a white peace. Destroy all the D7's and as many D6's as they can find, destroy the space stations, orbital shipyards & repair docks, Anti Matter production plants, fuel tankers, bulk transports, mining facilities... Destroy so much of their infrastructure that it'll take them decades with their now wrecked economy to rebuild it so they can then start to build new ships. During this time, we carry on advancing our tech level and building as many new ships as possible - building up as much of overtake as we can. It'll also send a nice message to the other powers. "Don't f**k with us! We're happy to leave you alone, but if you attack us, we won't destroy you. We'll knock you down so far that you'll be defenseless against anyone else and it'll take you a lifetime just to get back to the same point - while everyone ELSE keeps advancing! So, do you feel lucky?".
Unlikely. Doesnt really fit Federation and Starfleet ethos.
If they didnt have raiders do this when they were losing in order to degrade/impede Klingon offensive efforts, I dont really see them resorting to this when they are winning the conventional way.

Plus, from a strictly pragmatic PoV, that is not in the Federation's interests.

A Klingon Empire degraded that badly is at risk of being swallowed by other imperialist factions, like for example the Romulans, which would make the Romulan Empire that much more of a threat.
And in Federation/Starfleet institutional memory the Romulans are much more war crime happy than the Klingons.
 
We don't have the ships to dive deep into the Empire, secure our supply lines, and defend our (other) borders. Reclaim to the border and toe inside for a good blow if there's a chance so we can set up a favorable neutral zone.

But if we go all in the Klingons will all rally to the flag and we will drown under a million BoPs shooting everything that moves.
 
I wonder if the Andorians will push for a deepstrike to house Duras assests has a condition to propose peace after the Klingons are pushed behond the borders of the Federation.
 
Yeah, the furthest I can see the Federation going in the war is to hit a larger shipyard. And that would be more of a show of force rather than act of aggression... A "Look we can do this, don't push us further." type thing. I personally don't see them going that far though.
 
Which is a failure of Starfleet's Intel spooks. Federation still dropping the ball.
Personally, I would be willing to say this whole was a Federation and Star fleet dropping the ball SO HARD. We are just lucky the Klingons decided to hold the idiot ball harder then star fleet did.

I miss being able to decide how many ships a of a certain class was built like we did early quest..
 
Personally, I would be willing to say this whole was a Federation and Star fleet dropping the ball SO HARD. We are just lucky the Klingons decided to hold the idiot ball harder then star fleet did.

I miss being able to decide how many ships a of a certain class was built like we did early quest..
As I've said before, it was one misplay, and the follow-on results from it, that began the reversal in fortunes. Had Karhammur chosen differently in his battle plan, it's entirely in the realm of possibility that Andoria's orbitals would have been taken.
 
Which is a failure of Starfleet's Intel spooks. Federation still dropping the ball.
That presumes that this is something that they actually could have found out without it being retrocausally determined that this specific threat vector needed more effort put into exploring compared to everything else. It's trivially easy to look back and say that any particular unexpected problem could have been foreseen, but it's quite a different matter when you look at the sort of culture (both institutional and societal) that'd be necessary to explore everything that could be an unexpected problem, and in itself very rapidly leads to questions about why so much effort is being expended on definitionally low-expected-effect intelligence operations rather than anything else that they could be doing.
 
That presumes that this is something that they actually could have found out without it being retrocausally determined that this specific threat vector needed more effort put into exploring compared to everything else. It's trivially easy to look back and say that any particular unexpected problem could have been foreseen, but it's quite a different matter when you look at the sort of culture (both institutional and societal) that'd be necessary to explore everything that could be an unexpected problem, and in itself very rapidly leads to questions about why so much effort is being expended on definitionally low-expected-effect intelligence operations rather than anything else that they could be doing.
I do believe that more could have been reasonably done on their parts, yes. You seem to believe differently. Fine. I'm not in a mood to want to drag this out, so I'm going to leave it at that.
 
What do people think the federation should've been doing, though? Our ships were enough to deter raiding BoPs and at least make a D6 have to weigh the risks. The Excalibur project was commissioned as soon as they had a hint that the D7 existed and well before we could've plausibly expected a full-scale invasion.

People keep whining that that we didn't do better, but considering that we've effectively defeated an invasion by a major regional power without losing anything of strategic significance that seems to be founded on nothing but aversion to even minor setbacks. Of course that's just how quests go, but it's annoying nonetheless, especially after we've known the whole time that we didn't lose and we've had two consecutive updates telling us how we've basically kicked their asses.
 
It seems unreasonable to imagine that Starfleet Intelligence ought to have understood that the Klingons were standing up for an attack, when IRL nations have completely misunderstood others that they actually had high-level intelligence penetration of and were also well known to them. And you could just take a boat/airplane to another country in a matter of days.
 
What do people think the federation should've been doing, though? Our ships were enough to deter raiding BoPs and at least make a D6 have to weigh the risks. The Excalibur project was commissioned as soon as they had a hint that the D7 existed and well before we could've plausibly expected a full-scale invasion.
Easy. Build more hulls, for starters. Our fleet in comparison to territory needing covered was/is too small. Part 1 of the Four Years Wars write-up says as much.
 
Easy. Build more hulls, for starters. Our fleet in comparison to territory needing covered was/is too small. Part 1 of the Four Years Wars write-up says as much.
We were building more hulls. Our initial order was pretty big for a large, expensive ship. Making it bigger would have required cancelling other construction, but there was no way to know that such a drastic response would be necessary.
 
Easy. Build more hulls, for starters. Our fleet in comparison to territory needing covered was/is too small. Part 1 of the Four Years Wars write-up says as much.
Unfortunately Starfleet and the Federation doesn't have the resources for more ships. Which I know you know because you responded to the last post I made pointing that out.
 
Last edited:
That, and the Warp 8 engine coming online in TTL didn't result in a large tranche of refits and upgrades being applied to older ship designs - turning the already capable ships like the Kea, Saladin, and Newton into much more capable combatants that would be able to outpace the D6 and at least meaningfully keep up with dedicated Warp 8 combatants like Excalibur or the D7. That would have potentially been enough to force Karhammur to delay until he had enough forces built up to feel like he'd guaranteed superiority - if not denying him the option of a 'quick victorious war' as a way to relieve internal tensions, thus setting up for someone like T'Kuvma in the 2250s instead of a Chancellor leading the charge in the 2240s.
 
Maybe we should request that Sayle writes it so that we always win every battle and conflict forever after regardless of any design decision or whatnot so that we don't have to deal with continued salt like this.
 
Easy. Build more hulls, for starters. Our fleet in comparison to territory needing covered was/is too small. Part 1 of the Four Years Wars write-up says as much.
I'm also referring to hulls preceding the Excaliburs. Starfleet did not have enough ships even in peacetime.
The limitation on the number of hulls is strategic resource availability, which is directly tied to territory. Since you seem to have missed this when I quoted it recently:
As for this idea that if Starfleet just had more budget? It's not about budget. You can't just dig up some iron and coal for your steel manufacturing. It's all about strategic resources. The SDB Federation has greater resource-flows than the OTL Federation, so can build more ships. Duranium, tritanium, dilithium, parsteel, all these things are limited by extractive industry and natural supply, not money.
Starfleet already had more hulls than OTL. The issue that caused this war, rather than later border skirmishes, was that those hulls were less capable due to the decisions made by this thread with the Warp Eight Engine, and trying to eat their cake and have it too with the Type-2 Phaser.
 
The limitation on the number of hulls is strategic resource availability, which is directly tied to territory. Since you seem to have missed this when I quoted it recently:
Unless we're going with another oversimplification and abstraction it's more complicated than that. There's no way the Federation is engaging in peak feasible strategic resource production throughout the entirety of its territories. Likely some deposits are underexploited due to economics, or a lack of investment in new territory etc. that doesn't mean we voters could miraculously address that but from a Watsonian perspective the Federation as a government probably could have incentivized and pushed for strategic resource production policies- both in extraction and processing raw material.

The very fact we have an endemic piracy problem in our hinterland indicates that's there's wealth to be had there while the infrastructure to supply a military capable of protecting that wealth has yet to be fully established. This isn't to say the Federation made colossal errors they should have seen coming, but it does mean that emphasizing the Federation can and probably should grow from this in terms of how it handles strategic resources and Starfleet's size. A major war that nearly ended in disaster not teaching a government and its military some important and painful lessons would be rather underwhelming imo.
 
Maybe we should request that Sayle writes it so that we always win every battle and conflict forever after regardless of any design decision or whatnot so that we don't have to deal with continued salt like this.
I think it's more frustrating that we can't seem to fix our issues. We were never told that we had issues with material sortages so we never thought to create more material hunter ships. We never got told the fact that we can't hold orbitals over our colonies and more often and than not pirates fight themselves over control of them, then star fleet vs pirates. We can't build patrol ships because "to expensive you might as well make a multi-purpose ship" . Not to mention the whole when we did design a ship to do war we designed a heavy cruiser/ battlecruiser when we really really needed destroyers/ escorts for protection because our current ones were too outdated. LIke sure some of this could have been avoided by making the warp 8 engine refitable but a lot of it couldn't. Star fleet just flat out didn't tell us that they were having these issues. I guess the next time we build a ship we should ask Star Fleet what the general status of the federation is so that we don't create a lemon. It feels like we just got blindsided because nobody decided to tell the people designing ships that our material manufactory didn't have enough supply to make enough ships to guard the colonies we were making. Now we are in a loop of not enough materials but we need to make a alot of material finder class and that will go in circles.
 
Last edited:
Yeah no. I don't see the Federation going full scorched earth in return for 20,000 fatalities that seem mostly accidental when they didn't go that hard for the Romulans, who absolutely did break out the Big Box of War Crimes, even if they didn't go quite as hard as they did in the novels.

That doesn't mean that the Federation doesn't have an obvious option for their stretch goal: The Kriosians.

Krios Prime is located in the unimaginatively named the Kriosian System and is the home world of the Kriosians. They were independent in 2153 when the Earth Fed Enterprise rescued their monarch, but were under Klingon dominion by 2256 per Discovery and remained as such in 2367 when they showed up in TNG (their first appearance from and IRL perspective) though a year later they may be independent.* Regardless, they should be a relatively recent conquest, and are usually** depicted as close to the Federation-Klingon border, making kicking the Klingons out and granting them their independence a reasonable war goal, and certainly one more in keeping with Federation ethos than a slash and burn anti infrastructure campaign that would probably kill hundreds of thousands to millions of civilians due to logistical disruptions alone.

* it's been a long time since I've watched TNG so I'd need to rewatch that episode, and Perfect Mate is not high on my list.
** Star Trek maps are not the most consistent.

I didn't realize until very recently that the Kriosians had an entire mini-arc in both TNG and Enterprise. Which is way more than we ever got for, say, the Orions.

...And now I'm imagining that there's at least one Klingon epic about a Kriosian Empathic Metamorph who became Klingon and went on to Glory. Guy thought he wanted a concubine, he got the real Klingon ideal woman and she went on to conquer. Maybe it's even a revenge epic, where he dies and she takes over the house. 'Extenuating Circumstances' include a Bird of Prey hovering above the assembly hall when they confirm her as head of house...

I wonder if the Andorians will push for a deepstrike to house Duras assests has a condition to propose peace after the Klingons are pushed behond the borders of the Federation.

We don't want to repeat the Klingon failure at Andoria, but yes an attack on the Chancellor's assets specifically seems like a good way to provoke infighting. Especially if we also hit his supporters.

Personally, I would be willing to say this whole was a Federation and Star fleet dropping the ball SO HARD. We are just lucky the Klingons decided to hold the idiot ball harder then star fleet did.

I miss being able to decide how many ships a of a certain class was built like we did early quest..

The attack on Andoria wasn't stupid. It was a calculated risk. It failed but, well, that's why it's called a risk. And if it had succeeded it would have been a masterful coup and possibly setting up a total victory rather than a turning point in the war for the Federation.
 
Last edited:
I think it's more frustrating that we can't seem to fix our issues. We were never told that we had issues with material sortages so we never thought to create more material hunter ships. We never got told the fact that we can't hold orbitals over our colonies and more often and than not pirates fight themselves over control of them, then star fleet vs pirates. We can't build patrol ships because "to expensive you might as well make a multi-purpose ship" . Not to mention the whole when we did design a ship to do war we designed a heavy cruiser/ battlecruiser when we really really needed destroyers/ escorts for protection because our current ones were too outdated. LIke sure some of this could have been avoided by making the warp 8 engine refitable but a lot of it couldn't. Star fleet just flat out didn't tell us that they were having these issues. I guess the next time we build a ship we should ask Star Fleet what the general status of the federation is so that we don't create a lemon. It feels like we just got blindsided because nobody decided to tell the people designing ships that our material manufactory didn't have enough supply to make enough ships to guard the colonies we were making. Now we are in a loop of not enough materials but we need to make a alot of material finder class and that will go in circles.
Starfleet Design Bureau Quest, not Starfleet Admiralty Quest.
Its not our job to decide Federation naval policy, its our job to design ships and spaceborne installations using the parameters we were given.

We are given unusual amounts of license to determine what additional parameters a ship design from our bureau should meet, but its strictly speaking not our job to make strategic-level decisions.
We certainly have no influence on the foreign policy of external nationstates.
The attack on Andoria wasn't stupid. It was a calculated risk. It failed but, well, that's why it's called a risk. And if it had succeeded it would have been a masterful coup and possibly setting up a total victory rather than a turning point in the war for the Federation.
Even if it had succeeded, it would still have been a stupid risk for the Klingons to tak.

The Battle of Andoria was a confrontation primarily necessitated by internal Klingon political concerns, predicated on an entirely self-serving assessment of Federation political unity, and one where anything short of a complete and overwhelming victory would have been a military and political catastrophe for the Klingon Empire.
 
If they didnt have raiders do this when they were losing in order to degrade/impede Klingon offensive efforts, I dont really see them resorting to this when they are winning the conventional way.
I think that was because they lost a lot and had to recover after all those losses, long enough that whole generation past and new adventures can be had as well as new conflicts or skirmishes that the federation was to busy focused inward to actually do anything about the klingons after. At least I assume Im not exactly a wiki for star trek lore.
 
Unfortunately Starfleet and the Federation doesn't have the resources for more ships. Which I know you know because you responded to the last post I made pointing that out.
I don't know why you make this assumption the federation is bigger and has a better economy while our pre Excalibur fleet was not that much bigger then otl.

This means that the federation has the resources the a just being used in other things, what they needed to do since the kinzi war showed the SF vulnerabilities was shift priorities.

The Excalibur programm is the living proof of this. The Federation knew they had made some very wrong assumptions of the Klingons unification so they diverted resources to mass build a combat cruiser more expensive than otl in greater quantities in a shorter time.
Shipbuilding went from 5th priority to 1st allowing this to happen, if it just drops to 3rd we can expect larger amounts of ship per build and situations like the archer when there where 3 designs being worked at the same time to be common.
 
Back
Top