Art: Curiosity-class Science Ship
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- Fae/Faer
I think it's a fine writing choice for a bunch of ridiculously smart people who are all at least part-scientist, but as someone who is neither, I'm in complete agreement
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
I mean, the actual reason was so that the show writers wouldn't need to do math, since unlike TOS scale people can't as easily go "wait, that's not right" at travel times vs warp factor. Say what you will about NextGen, but they knew their audience at that point.I think it's a fine writing choice for a bunch of ridiculously smart people who are all at least part-scientist, but as someone who is neither, I'm in complete agreement
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
and the Warp 9.999... ect got annoying. Plus with the scale becoming exponential in warp 9+ it gets hard to really know how fast its really going.Also voting for keeping the old scale ITTL because Warp 15 sounds way more impressive than Warp 9.92
Anyway enjoy this, I got fed up of not knowing how fast and far our ships are actually going and created this. Note - it's using the TOS scale and "Day" is 24 hrs:
Warp Factor | C | Days/Ly | Ly/Day |
5 | 125.00 | 2.92 | 0.34 |
5.1 | 132.65 | 2.75 | 0.36 |
5.2 | 140.61 | 2.60 | 0.38 |
5.3 | 148.88 | 2.45 | 0.41 |
5.4 | 157.46 | 2.32 | 0.43 |
5.5 | 166.38 | 2.20 | 0.46 |
5.6 | 175.62 | 2.08 | 0.48 |
5.7 | 185.19 | 1.97 | 0.51 |
5.8 | 195.11 | 1.87 | 0.53 |
5.9 | 205.38 | 1.78 | 0.56 |
6 | 216.00 | 1.69 | 0.59 |
6.1 | 226.98 | 1.61 | 0.62 |
6.2 | 238.33 | 1.53 | 0.65 |
6.3 | 250.05 | 1.46 | 0.68 |
6.4 | 262.14 | 1.39 | 0.72 |
6.5 | 274.62 | 1.33 | 0.75 |
6.6 | 287.50 | 1.27 | 0.79 |
6.7 | 300.76 | 1.21 | 0.82 |
6.8 | 314.43 | 1.16 | 0.86 |
6.9 | 328.51 | 1.11 | 0.90 |
7 | 343.00 | 1.06 | 0.94 |
7.1 | 357.91 | 1.02 | 0.98 |
7.2 | 373.25 | 0.98 | 1.02 |
7.3 | 389.02 | 0.94 | 1.07 |
7.4 | 405.22 | 0.90 | 1.11 |
7.5 | 421.88 | 0.87 | 1.16 |
7.6 | 438.98 | 0.83 | 1.20 |
7.7 | 456.53 | 0.80 | 1.25 |
7.8 | 474.55 | 0.77 | 1.30 |
7.9 | 493.04 | 0.74 | 1.35 |
8 | 512.00 | 0.71 | 1.40 |
8.1 | 531.44 | 0.69 | 1.46 |
8.2 | 551.37 | 0.66 | 1.51 |
8.3 | 571.79 | 0.64 | 1.57 |
8.4 | 592.70 | 0.62 | 1.62 |
8.5 | 614.12 | 0.59 | 1.68 |
8.6 | 636.06 | 0.57 | 1.74 |
8.7 | 658.50 | 0.55 | 1.80 |
8.8 | 681.47 | 0.54 | 1.87 |
8.9 | 704.97 | 0.52 | 1.93 |
9 | 729.00 | 0.50 | 2.00 |
9.1 | 753.57 | 0.48 | 2.06 |
9.2 | 778.69 | 0.47 | 2.13 |
9.3 | 804.36 | 0.45 | 2.20 |
9.4 | 830.58 | 0.44 | 2.27 |
9.5 | 857.37 | 0.43 | 2.35 |
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An actual exponential scale would be much better than TNG mixed polynomial/asymptotic scale. Notably because it means that linear bonuses/penalty to warp factor always mean the same relative difference. If warp factor were say w=log2(v) then a 0.2 bonus would always mean being 15% faster.
Eh, since I thought of an explanation to explain the inconsistency issue between TOS and TNG via TMP (3's) it's just been my head cannon that TNG's wonky warp scale is literally down to it's depth in subspace physics in universe.
TOS, and to a lesser extent ENT era warp was all about transitioning into the first subspace layer. Achieved, purportedly, roughly around the warp 6 engine, and smoothed out in the warp 7 engine, and further allowing for earlier subspace transitioning in the warp 8 (Progression of punching through at warp six for said warp six, passing through at warp five and going that bit further for warp 7, and then at warp 4 up to warp 8 for that engine.) This is kinda of supported by the first TMP (admittedly trying to fit the evidence to the supposition) with the Connie refit Enterprise being a warp 9 engine that did wonky things at warp due to "new" warp geometries. (I.E. transitioning at warp "factor" 3 and being able to push up to "9" ) There by implying that TMP 3's "Trans Warp" engine stood for transitory Warp, I.E. transitioning into subspace from warp 1 (instead of at warp 2, and being able to push up to warp 10, though it still pushed up to warp ten by TMP 5's Enterprise A kitted with a trans warp drive)
Just that by the time TNG rolled around Warp scale was that a Drive's rating wasn't how fast it could go, but what subspace layer it can delve to fully. Which to me would explain why the warp calculus was weird in TNG. It was just a natural outgrowth of how Warp engines developed. If we skip the "trans warp" experimental drive. Our Warp 10 will still transition at warp 2, and our Warp 11 would just punch straight through to the first subspace layer at "warp 1" We'd likely then be either stuck at a warp 11 engine, or figure out that there's a deeper layer, and push through to that, which would just throw most of the warp calculations out the window, having to redesign the warp drive from first principles to take into account of delving deeper into subspace. The resulting "transitory" warp drives would then be exponential calculus instead of linear. And would also explain the Warp 10 barrier in TNG era. My guess is that it's not unlike The Traveler's "Layers of Reality" effect that he did the Enterprise D.
It won't be till they succeed at breaching the Barrier that they'd take that into account to find the next subspace layer that they obviously did in All Good things. Likely due to the TNG era "trans warp" that used wormhole tech I.E. the Slipstream drives.
TOS, and to a lesser extent ENT era warp was all about transitioning into the first subspace layer. Achieved, purportedly, roughly around the warp 6 engine, and smoothed out in the warp 7 engine, and further allowing for earlier subspace transitioning in the warp 8 (Progression of punching through at warp six for said warp six, passing through at warp five and going that bit further for warp 7, and then at warp 4 up to warp 8 for that engine.) This is kinda of supported by the first TMP (admittedly trying to fit the evidence to the supposition) with the Connie refit Enterprise being a warp 9 engine that did wonky things at warp due to "new" warp geometries. (I.E. transitioning at warp "factor" 3 and being able to push up to "9" ) There by implying that TMP 3's "Trans Warp" engine stood for transitory Warp, I.E. transitioning into subspace from warp 1 (instead of at warp 2, and being able to push up to warp 10, though it still pushed up to warp ten by TMP 5's Enterprise A kitted with a trans warp drive)
Just that by the time TNG rolled around Warp scale was that a Drive's rating wasn't how fast it could go, but what subspace layer it can delve to fully. Which to me would explain why the warp calculus was weird in TNG. It was just a natural outgrowth of how Warp engines developed. If we skip the "trans warp" experimental drive. Our Warp 10 will still transition at warp 2, and our Warp 11 would just punch straight through to the first subspace layer at "warp 1" We'd likely then be either stuck at a warp 11 engine, or figure out that there's a deeper layer, and push through to that, which would just throw most of the warp calculations out the window, having to redesign the warp drive from first principles to take into account of delving deeper into subspace. The resulting "transitory" warp drives would then be exponential calculus instead of linear. And would also explain the Warp 10 barrier in TNG era. My guess is that it's not unlike The Traveler's "Layers of Reality" effect that he did the Enterprise D.
It won't be till they succeed at breaching the Barrier that they'd take that into account to find the next subspace layer that they obviously did in All Good things. Likely due to the TNG era "trans warp" that used wormhole tech I.E. the Slipstream drives.
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- Location
- America
Canon USS Enterprise: Average Maneuverability
flies like an anti-submarine cruiser circa 1940-1945
SDB quest Wishlist UFS Enterprise: Very High Maneuverability
flies like an F-22 Raptor
SDB Wishlist Enterprise, colorized
View: https://youtu.be/ToO22Vwqvr4?si=lQ_wxWRpd3Xgx5oh
flies like an anti-submarine cruiser circa 1940-1945
SDB quest Wishlist UFS Enterprise: Very High Maneuverability
flies like an F-22 Raptor
SDB Wishlist Enterprise, colorized
View: https://youtu.be/ToO22Vwqvr4?si=lQ_wxWRpd3Xgx5oh
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Your habit of starting to draw the picture for the next update without formally ending the vote always makes me feel impressed and nervous in equal measure; like watching a someone surfing in a tidal bore or ice-climbing.
TBH the idea of "explorer" as a distinct type or role of ship in any era is a kind of fanon construct. We see Starfleet officers describing themselves and Starfleet in general as explorers fairly often (including in TOS), but starships are generally just described as starships. There's a degree of differentiation if something is meant to be more fighty or science-y, and we see Beverly Crusher commanding something specifically described as a hospital ship in the future scenes in All Good Things, but other than that, a lot of the categorisation is a fan thing. The ships chosen to be the Enterprise just tend to just be really shiny starships for their era.
But yes, I wasn't saying this was an explorer in our quest terminology - although it is definitely going to be doing a fair bit exploration, as we see in Star Trek - just that it is functionally the closest we are going to get for the next fifty years or so.
The successor to the Constitution is the Excelsior, which entered service in the 2280s, so the design project will probably start in the 2270s or possibly late 2260s? Interested to see what interpretation @Sayle goes with for the "Transwarp" system the Excelsior was intended to test and Scotty sabotaged to aid the Enterprise's escape in Star Trek III. Theories range from it being a failure, to the "transwarp" mentioned actually referring to something different to the "transwarp" we see in Voyager. Perhaps a way of changing more quickly between warp factors or some other improvement which is standardised on later starships?
Although the Constitution-II refit is such a comprehensive rebuild of the ship that maybe we'll get it as a kind of mini-project? That took place around the early 2270s, so weirdly it would take place around a similar time to when Project Excelsior might start.
Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
I mean, the current Klingon War that's looming is almost certainly going to be hard fought at with at least one crash development program, so assuming we pull out what can reasonably be called a victory, I would think that "the first project after the war" would be an obvious candidate for doing an Explorer as we think of them for this timeline. As a "we didn't make this sooner because of military neccessity, but now that that's over with, it's time to get back to normal operations and what could be more symbolic of that than a real, purpose built Explorer?"
I just really don't see us putting that off any longer, in or out of universe, not with how much the current project is pretty clearly going to be a thoroughbred warship to a much greater degree than the canon Constitution; which, for political reasons if nothing else, is probably not going to end up doing the same kind of exploration role we see Enterprise doing, simply because that isn't the face that the Federation wants to present the galaxy.
Edit: Also I am going to shill for calling this thing the Exigence class when we get to names, because that's very much looking to be accurate namewise.
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- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/They
nahhhhhhhhh there ain't nothing thoroughbred here. This is a junkyard dog warship. Fast, scrappy, mean, and full of teeth, with neither elegance nor pedigree.
If anything, Canon Connie was the "thoroughbred", with her slender, elegant saucer, precise punchy phasers, and single state-of-the-art rapid-fire torpedo launcher.
If canon Connie was a BMW M5, ours is gonna be one of those terrifying little time-attack MX-5 Miatas hotrodded to insane horsepower, or maybe a Caterham Seven RS Levante with its awkwardly-stuck-between-classic-and-derptastic looks and its positively stupid 500bhp in 520kg.
KlavoHunter
THOU SHALT WORSHIP NO GODS ABOVE ENTERPRISE!
What do we know about the D6 (and then the D7)? We know the Sagarmatha can scarcely match a D6 in battle by metaphorically putting bricks in her socks to start the fight.
The Newton vs D6 matchup isn't described anywhere, but I assume that SanFran knew what they were doing when they put double forward photorps on the latest high-maneuverability tactical ship, with somewhat better phasers than Sagarmatha or Selachii's Type-1s.
The 2240-refit Kea is probably in a similar boat as the Sagarmatha as far as 1v1ing a D6 goes, due to her Low Maneuverability, but in a fleet engagement the 'budget heavy cruiser' will surely shine with her 100% phaser coverage, 9 of the 12 of them survived the war... so long as the Connie is around to kill the D7 bogeyman.
But, what the hell is the D7? One forward photorp, maybe one aft photorp? Nasty forward disruptors, Enough Maneuverability to bring 'em on target... All in a Warp-8 package.
The Newton vs D6 matchup isn't described anywhere, but I assume that SanFran knew what they were doing when they put double forward photorps on the latest high-maneuverability tactical ship, with somewhat better phasers than Sagarmatha or Selachii's Type-1s.
The 2240-refit Kea is probably in a similar boat as the Sagarmatha as far as 1v1ing a D6 goes, due to her Low Maneuverability, but in a fleet engagement the 'budget heavy cruiser' will surely shine with her 100% phaser coverage, 9 of the 12 of them survived the war... so long as the Connie is around to kill the D7 bogeyman.
But, what the hell is the D7? One forward photorp, maybe one aft photorp? Nasty forward disruptors, Enough Maneuverability to bring 'em on target... All in a Warp-8 package.
Strunkriidiisk
THE LEGEND
- Location
- Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We can't know, all we have to go on is the D6 armament:
- Location
- Earth
Sometime during the TNG era sublight engines got much. You can see an Ambassador and Nebula-class swing in a 90 degree turn to blast the Borg at the Battle of Wolf 359. Those are not light ships, the Ambassador was the Excelsior replacement and is a capital ship.
View: https://youtu.be/4-0Jg6_zHu0?t=37
But that's about 100 years away in quest time. Get cracking on those engine techs boys!
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Mechanis
Confirmed Extremely Screwed
- Location
- Absconding with Alacrity
That said, the D7 is built on the same hull as the D6, with relatively minor modifications, so there is a distinct limit on how much different it can be.
I suspect that the primary modifications will be the addition of photon torpedoes, as those were starting to become standard (the B'Rel mounts them, for example, and should start being designed soon, if it isn't already in the works,) and better shields.
They may also have somewhat better energy weapons, if they get some kind of boost from warp 8 as well.
I suspect that the primary modifications will be the addition of photon torpedoes, as those were starting to become standard (the B'Rel mounts them, for example, and should start being designed soon, if it isn't already in the works,) and better shields.
They may also have somewhat better energy weapons, if they get some kind of boost from warp 8 as well.
so, the same frame with a new trick and iterative improvements?
In beta canon one solution was that TOS hit a hard threshold on warp speed, and the Transwarp Drive on the Excelsior was intended to push past that wall. It failed because the actual reason they couldn't push past a specific warp factor was because their warp field equations were incomplete. The discovery of a more complete equation involving subspace resulting in the recalibration to the TNG scale, with warp 9 being the point where starships shaping their warp fields according to the new equation stopped hitting power-spikes at the new warp 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 thresholds and it just became a steady exponential power/speed curve.
Which is a reasonably cogent explanation for the warp scale change in-universe. Still doesn't make warp 9+ a pain though. Although by 30 years after TNG starships are going so fast it looks like they're in hyperspace, not warp.
Which is a reasonably cogent explanation for the warp scale change in-universe. Still doesn't make warp 9+ a pain though. Although by 30 years after TNG starships are going so fast it looks like they're in hyperspace, not warp.
It's functionally the same "face" either way - the canonical Enterprise was a bruiser which could also do some discovery and adventure, then suit up for the big game if War Were Declared. We're building to the same brief.
Our Connie will be the same tonnage or heavier given we can shift more weight with our engine setup, with same our greater internals. (Unless we deliberately make the ship worse for no upside, which is possible.) Definitely more overpowered for the size, but I wouldn't say little? Maybe like a Porsche 911 versus something with more engine. (I'm not a car guy.)
Personally I am coming to favour two of the new launchers; getting the new technology out on schedule will benefit an escort design we do next (that cannot fit a million launchers) immensely. We could design something small and zippy with a single RFL and a single phaser bank; compares very well to the Newton or Saladin.
We're richer than the canonical Federation and compared to a canonical Connie, it's boosting the cost by 25% in exchange for +50% Alpha Strike and +33% Max Sustained Damage, so I'd say worth it.
I imagine everyone will fight me about this; clearly it is part of the grand rhythm if the seasons that we need a contentious torpedo-related vote around each equinox.
TheShadowDeamon
Mighty Dragon
I did occasionally wonder why when they got above warp 9, they didn't instead start calling their speed out in # x speed of light (or relative C). It would be a lot easier to understand.
- Location
- being near locations is my passion.
We had this for our Voyager build previous quest (with a Z grade 3 module), and it was great imo.
It (being a plan vote) meant that we could pick if we wanted the engineering type module or science type module to be better, but still have both.
Even that gets silly as warp 10 is infinite speed. This means that the later treks get silly fast.
- Location
- USA
Turning good starfleet officers into salamanders. Madness.
tankdrop24
Tread First into Hell
- Location
- The Center of the Universe: Toronto, Canada
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Legitimately think any prospective Star Trek writer needs to be sat down and have the concept of evolution explained to them, followed by a short test to ensure they've absorbed it.
NSMS
Probably evil, unfortunately.
- Location
- A rapidly widening tear in the fabric of reality
Coupled with an explanation of what happens to someone if you remove their brain.
2228: Project Constitution (Spaceframe: Part Two)
[X] 140 Meter Half-Saucer (140,000 Tons)
With the saucer decided you can move on, although you will have to return to the aft sections once you decide on the engine configuration and internals - a shuttlebay has rather different structural requirements than an engine assembly. For the moment however you can at least put down the main structural elements even if you need to defer on the final shape of the outer hull. You have to finalise the overall mass of the ship by selecting your preferred secondary hull, of which there are three potential contenders.
The first option is to eliminate the neck and integrating the secondary hull directly into the aft ventral surfaces. The integrated hull would have some advantages in terms of overall space, allowing more internal modules in the engineering section. The disadvantage would be that the deflector dish would necessarily take up the entire forward aspect, eliminating any possibility of mounting torpedoes there. It may be that a pair of forward launchers in the main saucer is perfectly adequate in exchange for a more rounded mission set.
The polar opposite of this is a slightly smaller but still quite substantial secondary hull in the style of the Kea-class. The long neck provides additional clearance for the main deflector and can accommodate an extra torpedo launcher, as well as still providing plenty of internal deck space for whatever it is you might need. Tried and tested as it is you'll not have any trouble making that work even with the larger Warp 8 core.
The final design for consideration is to turn the neck around and have it slanting towards the bow rather than aft. The goal would be to draw the mass of the ship forward and keep it vertically compact while still giving the main deflector the space it needs. By doing so and keeping the mass lower you can naturally attenuate the warp bubble the Constitution will produce to allow higher maximum warp factors. The disadvantage is you will have less internal space than the alternatives.
[ ] Integrated Secondary Hull (200,000 Tons) [2 Forward Launcher Max]
[ ] Large Secondary Hull (190,000 Tons) [Canon: Constitution-class] [3 Forward Launchers Max]
[ ] Underslung Secondary Hull (180,000 Tons) [3 Forward Launchers Max] [+0.2 Sprint]
Two Hour Moratorium, Please
With the saucer decided you can move on, although you will have to return to the aft sections once you decide on the engine configuration and internals - a shuttlebay has rather different structural requirements than an engine assembly. For the moment however you can at least put down the main structural elements even if you need to defer on the final shape of the outer hull. You have to finalise the overall mass of the ship by selecting your preferred secondary hull, of which there are three potential contenders.
The first option is to eliminate the neck and integrating the secondary hull directly into the aft ventral surfaces. The integrated hull would have some advantages in terms of overall space, allowing more internal modules in the engineering section. The disadvantage would be that the deflector dish would necessarily take up the entire forward aspect, eliminating any possibility of mounting torpedoes there. It may be that a pair of forward launchers in the main saucer is perfectly adequate in exchange for a more rounded mission set.
The polar opposite of this is a slightly smaller but still quite substantial secondary hull in the style of the Kea-class. The long neck provides additional clearance for the main deflector and can accommodate an extra torpedo launcher, as well as still providing plenty of internal deck space for whatever it is you might need. Tried and tested as it is you'll not have any trouble making that work even with the larger Warp 8 core.
The final design for consideration is to turn the neck around and have it slanting towards the bow rather than aft. The goal would be to draw the mass of the ship forward and keep it vertically compact while still giving the main deflector the space it needs. By doing so and keeping the mass lower you can naturally attenuate the warp bubble the Constitution will produce to allow higher maximum warp factors. The disadvantage is you will have less internal space than the alternatives.
[ ] Integrated Secondary Hull (200,000 Tons) [2 Forward Launcher Max]
[ ] Large Secondary Hull (190,000 Tons) [Canon: Constitution-class] [3 Forward Launchers Max]
[ ] Underslung Secondary Hull (180,000 Tons) [3 Forward Launchers Max] [+0.2 Sprint]
Two Hour Moratorium, Please
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- Location
- Germany
Considering this is mainly a warship with pretty much everything else secondary i think the + sprint speed is worth less internal space here.