Starfleet Design Bureau

The problem is that Starfleet's entire purpose is to be the answer for when someone tries to punch the Federation in the face.

Sure, it does science on the side...
OK, I fully admit I'm not deep into the nitty gritty of star trek lore, but... Is this not wrong? I thought federation vessels, be them support, science, military etc. all fell under starfleet's banner.

Also in regards to the current conflict, I'm assuming that if the war is going badly enough that starfleet needs us to retrofit one of our current projects to be a combat ship, or to start a new combat focused design...that they'll just. Ask us to do that?

Like, we're roleplaying a Design Bureau, not High Command. Our job is to make what they ask us to make. I guess we could propose a new hypothetical design and present it unprompted, but there's no guarantee they'd accept it.

IDK the whole thing feels a bit out of our purview, which tbh I sort of like.
 
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I've been poking around ideas of what the Kea refit actually looks like ever since I noticed that we've not seen any casualties among the refit Keas yet.
Per the old fluff they get a proper refit in 2270.

Excalibur gets its in 2265, and Connie got it's in 2270. So we might be looking at the prime universe Connie, but slightly slower, in effect.
 
OK, I fully admit I'm not deep into the nitty gritty of star trek lore, but... Is this not wrong? I thought federation vessels, be them support, science, military etc. all fell under starfleet's banner.
Starfleet is an organization funded by Federation worlds, but Federation worlds usually have their own fleets for science, transport, logistics. Often they also have their own patrol ships, police cutters, sometimes even full on warships for self-defense.
 
It's not inherently cost-ineffective for any civ in this state of the rules. (Although for a hypothetical "generic average" civ, it probably would be slightly cost-ineffective, which is made up for by being outright effective for anybody who needs to patrol a lot of places.)
The other thing is a difference between how the Federation and non-Federation get rebates on their warships.

The Klingons and the Romulans &c use their ships to extort tribute and conquer, which means their ships need to be able to be in lots of places all at once and don't need to be more than minimally fighty to earn returns for the state.

The Federation, on the other hand, doesn't conquer or extort tribute, so our pure combat frigates don't earn returns unless they're cheap enough to use that they can be used to suppress piracy - and there are sharp limits to that, because after a point all piracy within our borders is suppressed and they earn nothing. For our ships to earn back their Cost, they need to do stuff that's not military in nature. Our non-military stuff doesn't have direct Cost so long as it's mounted on a military ship rather than a non-military one; it just rewards us for building bigger ships. But that does mean it's easier for us to become overstretched, because for a given Cost we'll have larger, and thus fewer, ships - they'll just also be more capable ones, because of the way military capability scales.
Per the old fluff they get a proper refit in 2270.
At some point that got moved up to 2240. They're explicitly named as getting refits in the most recent update:
the now refit Kea-class Macaw and Rosella
 
Per the old fluff they get a proper refit in 2270.
Since-at-least-April fluff they got a minor refit in 2240 (basically swapped out the dilithium analysis suite for antimatter reserves and added two torpedo tubes) and will get a major one in 2270 (modernizing basically everything except the unrefittable Warp core)

Edit: ninja'd 🐱‍👤
 
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The Defiant really is an ideal colony defense ship.

Tiny crew and footprint means that a dedicated ground team could keep her hot and ready indefinitely. Set her down in a warehouse somewhere, and when someone fucks around they get to find out when she soars out of the gravity well. And since they just sit there 99% of the time, you dont need full Starfleet Officer training, just enough to man the ship in combat conditions and repair damage.

Biggest concern would be keeping people from running off with it in a grand theft starship.
 
Biggest concern would be keeping people from running off with it in a grand theft starship.
Now, that would make for a interesting omake, or a series of them, of some yahoo who took the starship to wreck some faces meanwhile dodging starfleet because he is in this epic warship and as such is a creditable threat to force none warships or almost warships designs to leave them alone.
 
At some point that got moved up to 2240. They're explicitly named as getting refits in the most recent update:
Since-at-least-April fluff they got a minor refit in 2240 (basically swapped out the dilithium analysis suite for antimatter reserves and added two torpedo tubes) and will get a major one in 2270 (modernizing basically everything except the unrefittable Warp core)
I guess that's why they went with Constitution II, refit is already too associated with something more minor.

I meant a full on Constitution II style refit, which given the Constitution II got a vertical core means it's not impossible for a fully rebuilt Kea to get one too. Just not the most cost effective given the hull age.
 
The Defiant really is an ideal colony defense ship.

Tiny crew and footprint means that a dedicated ground team could keep her hot and ready indefinitely. Set her down in a warehouse somewhere, and when someone fucks around they get to find out when she soars out of the gravity well. And since they just sit there 99% of the time, you dont need full Starfleet Officer training, just enough to man the ship in combat conditions and repair damage.

Biggest concern would be keeping people from running off with it in a grand theft starship.
I'm gonna sound like a cranky old man, which I am, but I'm always leery of people assuming you can leave high-performance hardware lying around for months or years and expect it'll magically spring into action when required without bugs and last-minute breakdowns or delays. The Defiant-class is relatively fat-free, but it is a very high-performance vehicle, possibly the early versions were yard queens.

Would be very surprised if you could get away leaving a ship in atmosphere for long periods, without at least a partial crew constantly tending it.

But, if you have a small space station, something like I suggested ages ago, a tiny facility with a basic sensor, comms suite, couple shuttles and a transporter that's designed to be carried by an Archer-class, you could probably keep it in geosynchronous orbit (away from the air, gravity, moisture etc) docked to your station and have a dozen people keep it on standby. Nasty surprise when your local Kzinti joyrider, rusty Klingon BoP or Orion scavenger turns up.

Then again, maybe it'd work fine and you'd be the one laughing <shrugs>.
 
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given the Constitution II got a vertical core means it's not impossible for a fully rebuilt Kea to get one too. Just not the most cost effective given the hull age.
Yeah, there's really nothing stopping you from totally replacing the entire engineering hull, which at least looks to be about what the Connie-II got. Just whether Starfleet thinks it's a sensible idea.
 
Yeah, there's really nothing stopping you from totally replacing the entire engineering hull, which at least looks to be about what the Connie-II got. Just whether Starfleet thinks it's a sensible idea.
Ah, that age-old debate, is the TOS look canon, or was the TMP-era refit more what they "really" looked like all along, and not so drastic.

Personally, when you hold the old and TMP-era models up against each other, I can't believe that it's meant to be taken literally. What exactly was "refit" if the entire structure, hull and warp drive at least were entirely replaced? Wouldn't that be more like scrapping the old design and reusing some components?
 
The Federation, on the other hand, doesn't conquer or extort tribute, so our pure combat frigates don't earn returns unless they're cheap enough to use that they can be used to suppress piracy - and there are sharp limits to that, because after a point all piracy within our borders is suppressed and they earn nothing. For our ships to earn back their Cost, they need to do stuff that's not military in nature. Our non-military stuff doesn't have direct Cost so long as it's mounted on a military ship rather than a non-military one; it just rewards us for building bigger ships. But that does mean it's easier for us to become overstretched, because for a given Cost we'll have larger, and thus fewer, ships - they'll just also be more capable ones, because of the way military capability scales.
Warships earn their cost back by preventing everything from blowing up. As was just shown and has been shown twice now in this thread (the Romulans and the Katzen) warships were extremely important in preventing everything from blowing up. From the system defense ships we designed that made it so Earth didn't get blown up to the other warships we made that made sure our colonies didn't blow up in the Kitzen war. As was shown in the last thread mark we now have the issue that our dedicated warships/ patrol craft got so out of date that now everything is on fire.

If you are so concerned about them having issues with recouping costs just have the warships, put into mothballs until they are needed again which they will be. Even better have it so you have a squadron of warships that you keep parked at colonies so that nobody gets any funny ideas. Warships are a preventive measure so that we don't have the issues we are having right now.

As for your point on making bigger ships but having fewer of them the last thread mark again sort of shows the flaw, where we had less of a fleet on the battleground because all our assists were spread far and wide and took a while to get back. We need warships/something to allow said big ships to come back to something that is not just rubble.

We can't just expect the enemy to wait until our big ships come back from every exploratory thing they were doing, we need something to hold the enemy until the heavy hitter comes in.

tldr: We need small/ light escorts to guard our holding to prevent everything from catching on fire and exploding when an enemy force attacks while all our big ships are busy doing exploring tasks or whatever. Having warships around prevents people from thinking that they can jump us and win before our heavy ships get into combat.
 
We need warships/something to allow said big ships to come back to something that is not just rubble.
Or, alternatively, we needed to not permit our opponents to run operational rings around the bulk of our fleet by keeping the latter from being upgraded with standard rate warp engines. Building an enormous fleet that does nothing but keep station most of the time is a waste of resources most of the time.
 
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put into mothballs until they are needed again
1) getting ships out of mothballs takes at least two years and more likely four (which is to say, longer than the entire canon Federation-Klingon War)
2) if you're expecting us to mothball large percentages of our total hull count then it'll take at least that long and possibly (probably) more to train sufficient crew for them.
3) modern starships (even the cheap ones!) are too expensive to build that many of them only to leave idle

Edit: basically I disagree with your larger point ("we need a bunch of frigates!") and believe that instead our light cruisers need to not suck in a fight (and also we do need more of them).
 
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Personally, when you hold the old and TMP-era models up against each other, I can't believe that it's meant to be taken literally. What exactly was "refit" if the entire structure, hull and warp drive at least were entirely replaced? Wouldn't that be more like scrapping the old design and reusing some components?
The United States Navy after the American civil war was in dire financial straits, unable to get new ships constructed and with increasingly outdated ships in its roster they did they only thing they could*. Get 'refits' that were in fact complete new builds that only shared a name with their predecessor.

The only remaining bit of the old ship was the bell, her soul.

*Whilst I'm not sure of other navies doing exactly the same, lying about what you're making to get it is a tradition as old as time. See large light cruisers (battlecruisers after all new capital ship construction was halted) and through deck cruisers (aircraft carriers after much the same).
 
3) modern starships (even the cheap ones!) are too expensive to build that many of them only to leave idle
I think the sheer number of obsolete ships we've clearly been keeping in operation strongly informs us that Cost is mostly up-front costs, not maintenance costs. Otherwise we'd be replacing old, worn-out ships with new, efficient ships rather than keeping them around.

The direct implication of this is that we really don't have the money to build ships we're not going to use.
 
The direct implication of this is that we really don't have the money to build ships we're not going to use.

My interpretation has always been that the post-scarcity Federation of TNG in particular was always limited by the flow of rare materials needed for starships rather than the problems that other polities might have based on supply-and-demand economies. You can't build a new Ferengi Marauder if the one component that's actually rare is going for 10x its actual value because you're getting ripped off and the seller is happy to sit on it until you get desperate enough. Or sabotages production to drive up the value of their stock. Or in the Klingon Empire your dilithium supply is being sat on by a rival House.
 
and when the Type 4 nacelle comes out give me a 400kt demigod for our first dedicated flagship explorer, even if we only get six or eight or ten of 'em.
A long-range explorer made in small numbers, like a proto-Galaxy class, isn't a bad idea, provided we have enough other modern ships to flesh out our fleet.

Again, once those holes are plugged, could be useful to put advanced or experimental technologies on an implicitly limited production design, that way we can get new weapons, shields etc a lot faster and the exorbitant cost isn't so much of a hassle, since we know we're only building a few. We must have a stronger fleet before we do that though, I think.

tldr: We need small/ light escorts to guard our holding to prevent everything from catching on fire and exploding when an enemy force attacks while all our big ships are busy doing exploring tasks or whatever. Having warships around prevents people from thinking that they can jump us and win before our heavy ships get into combat.
I seriously think we need to make a warp 8 version of the Cygnus or Newton, I got put down last couple times I suggested it because we have the Newton, but I'm increasingly convinced it's a good idea.

A fast internal affairs ship (full warp 8, not cheap'n'nasty faux warp 8), armaments similar to the Excalibur-class (maybe a little less for affordability, but if new weapons come up could be good to grab them), good combat abilities (most advanced shields available type 2s best, max agility), preferably a few points of cargo and extended range. It can deliver supplies and personnel where an Archer is overkill, patrol our space for long periods of time, deter pirates and raiders, and can respond faster than our older warp 7 ships. Optional extras; general purpose science lab for the more basic science wedgies, enhanced sensors for scouting, cruise config for maximum range under normal operations.

With such a ship, we can retire the Cygnus-class, and our fleet will be a lot stronger and when we're attacked we can deploy a better, scarier response force a lot faster.

Edit: A new warp 8 science cruiser once that's done would be good. A larger version than our bio-survey ship with more general science abilities, but without the landing capability or deflector limitations. Maybe we go super-big and plan on a limited production run, like the Sagarmatha? While I argued against torpedoes for the Kea-class to start with, I think we really are entering an era where every cruiser must have 2x fore and 2x aft torpedoes, and the more the better.

Edit sidenote: Is the RFL launcher a straight-up upgrade from single-fire launchers, or is it a sidegrade that'll continue to exist in parallel until we get type 2 torpedo launchers?

Edit 2: Just did some backtracking, we chose some features of the warp 8 drive that played extra-nice with the distant v4 nacelles, get a + to max warp factor... Wonder how much of a plus? We might soon be having designs capable of a sprint of warp 8.5 once those nacelles are out, that could def be a nasty surprise for any aggressors if we start fielding that soon.
 
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We could have had literal Warp 8 Cygnuses and Newtons
True, then we'd be facing issues when our fleet transitions to the warp 9 drive instead of the warp 8 one. It's just as likely we'd be kicking our feet and asking why we didn't do this earlier, not realizing we'd simply be choosing whether to go through a rough patch early or late. Maybe it would've been at a less awkward time, but we'd still be vulnerable.
 
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I suspect a big reason the Klingons also favour smaller ships is the smaller crews.

Given they need to enforce disciple... shall I say, manually? It would be a lot easier to stay in the captains seat with a small group of loyal friends.
A large ship requires larger and more firm alliances.
 
The other thing is a difference between how the Federation and non-Federation get rebates on their warships.

The Klingons and the Romulans &c use their ships to extort tribute and conquer, which means their ships need to be able to be in lots of places all at once and don't need to be more than minimally fighty to earn returns for the state.

The Federation, on the other hand, doesn't conquer or extort tribute, so our pure combat frigates don't earn returns unless they're cheap enough to use that they can be used to suppress piracy - and there are sharp limits to that, because after a point all piracy within our borders is suppressed and they earn nothing. For our ships to earn back their Cost, they need to do stuff that's not military in nature. Our non-military stuff doesn't have direct Cost so long as it's mounted on a military ship rather than a non-military one; it just rewards us for building bigger ships. But that does mean it's easier for us to become overstretched, because for a given Cost we'll have larger, and thus fewer, ships - they'll just also be more capable ones, because of the way military capability scales.

At some point that got moved up to 2240. They're explicitly named as getting refits in the most recent update:
On the contrary, suppressing piracy isn't a one-and-done thing. It's a continuous job, like having a military to defend yourself with. Just because you win one war doesn't mean you're completely safe forever.

The economic benefit of a military that isn't raiding and plundering is that your economy and society are safe, which pays huge dividends. You think global trade would be nearly as lucrative IRL if the US Navy wasn't around, preventing anyone with a decent-sized fleet from playing shitty games?

Starfleet pays for itself by preventing all that economic activity and growth from being preyed upon or outright destroyed.
 
Or, alternatively, we needed to not permit our opponents to run operational rings around the bulk of our fleet by keeping the latter from being upgraded with standard rate warp engines. Building an enormous fleet that does nothing but keep station most of the time is a waste of resources most of the time.
Agree on the first point not on the second one having ships whose only job is to protect colonies and trade lanes is nessary to prevent issues where the closest ship is to far away to provid a quick response to incisions into our space.

1) getting ships out of mothballs takes at least two years and more likely four (which is to say, longer than the entire canon Federation-Klingon War)
2) if you're expecting us to mothball large percentages of our total hull count then it'll take at least that long and possibly (probably) more to train sufficient crew for them.
3) modern starships (even the cheap ones!) are too expensive to build that many of them only to leave idle

Edit: basically I disagree with your larger point ("we need a bunch of frigates!") and believe that instead our light cruisers need to not suck in a fight (and also we do need more of them).
On your first point where are you getting 2 years to un mothball a ship, perhaps a deeply mothballed large ship today might take that long and that's if they have degraded/ have had important system removed. With space ships you don't really have to worry about degrading from rust or other things like that. Also we know from cannon that star fleet can unmothball ships in a hurry if nessary see the borg cub. Personally I would say a week or two to unmothball a spaceship that was stored properly (defueled, no torpedos , inside is empty of air), quicker if you keep the torpedos and fuel and have someone go up every so often to check the systems and make minor repairs.

As for the crew I was personally thinking we could train the colonies to man them. That way they can call up their people and get them ready for combat far far faster then someone who is out if system could come to aid. Think national guard to star fleet being the army.

As for your 3 point which is cheaper having to constantly rebuild all our infernstuture or having a few cheap guard ships around to prevent poeple form destroying things that cost more then them. Or another angle to prevent our people from getting massacred by aliens who have invaded.

As for your edit I agree for the most part but we really need ship who only dose protection to prevent them form "being away" when something goes down.

In simple terms what is the value you hold for the ability to not have to worry about making our ships half warship all the time. That is the value of a warship. A protector for when everyone else is off doing other things. Holding down the metaphorical fort so that others can go have fun. That's the value of a warship.
 
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