Starfleet Design Bureau

On the contrary, suppressing piracy isn't a one-and-done thing. It's a continuous job
This is not in contradiction to anything I wrote. The more and more effective your anti-piracy patrols, the less the return on anti-piracy patrols.

And while there's certainly value in keeping your society unplundered, under the Federation's government that value doesn't accrue to Starfleet.
 
This is not in contradiction to anything I wrote. The more and more effective your anti-piracy patrols, the less the return on anti-piracy patrols.

And while there's certainly value in keeping your society unplundered, under the Federation's government that value doesn't accrue to Starfleet.
While your first paragraph is strictly speaking true, respectfully I'm not sure I agree overall. It seems if the Federation is constantly being raided and plundered, Starfleet's resources will be more limited and intermittent, with things like supply shortages fouling up our operations. If we had zero piracy, then we'd have more and more reliable resources to build a larger and stronger fleet, infrastructure and defense stations.

Edit: Of course, we may end up complacent and weak if we never have to deal with threat vessels, incursions or combat. 🤔
 
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And while there's certainly value in keeping your society unplundered, under the Federation's government that value doesn't accrue to Starfleet.
How dose not preventing vital infernstuture from being raided not effect star fleet,
How down not preventing merchant marine from being plundered not effect star fleet

Please tell me how the Federations general well being dose not effect star fleet.

You do realize the Federation's holds star fleet purse and we sorta need the Federation' to be a functional state in order to build ships.

What I am saying is one of our jobs is to protect the Federation, infact it's one of the priorities we have. I would say it should be the number 1 priority behind every other one. Cause if the Federation dies the quest is over.
 
If we had zero piracy, then we'd have more and more reliable resources to build a larger and stronger fleet, infrastructure and defense stations.
If, that is, a more prosperous Federation chooses to increase Starfleet's budget.

And, well, Sayle just noted that Starfleet's production of ships is limited by access to rare materials and resource constraints rather than money. This carries with it the implication that rampant piracy still only hits Starfleet if the piracy hits the materials and resources needed for starships - which are certainly valuable targets for piracy, no question, but piracy of anything else is going to be most piracy because, you know, rare resources are rare and more heavily guarded than flag-planting colonies.
 
If, that is, a more prosperous Federation chooses to increase Starfleet's budget.

And, well, Sayle just noted that Starfleet's production of ships is limited by access to rare materials and resource constraints rather than money. This carries with it the implication that rampant piracy still only hits Starfleet if the piracy hits the materials and resources needed for starships - which are certainly valuable targets for piracy, no question, but piracy of anything else is going to be most piracy because, you know, rare resources are rare and more heavily guarded than flag-planting colonies.
Sounds like ultimately we're agreed on the issues at play, I agree that it's unlikely to have a major impact on ship production unless the piracy is extremely rampant, I also think it's a real possibility that a Federation that never sees combat is likely to become weak and complacent and really get its butt handed to sometime later.

There is however a converse possibility that a Federation that doesn't have to worry about internal piracy and raiding has a stronger economy overall, yes again I agree there's a chance those resources won't get funneled to Starfleet because people would feel it's a waste, regardless of the objective utility. (Why pay more tax/resources to build more warships when you're not at war and have never had combat happen near you? That's how I expect Federation citizens to feel.)

But it's certainly not a bad thing to eliminate piracy, the same ships that are patrolling doing anti-piracy ops could easily be made to match a D6 or pair of BoPs or whatever the Gorn or Tholians use and help deter incursions into our territory, make us an unappealing target for aggression. That will pay dividends many times over.
 
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I also think it's a real possibility that a Federation that never sees combat is likely to become weak and complacent and really get its butt handed to it a short time later.
I wonder, I wonder, what that might look like. :thonk:

I'm certainly in favor of pirate patrols. I think we'll probably get more of them if the ships we have doing them are also providing value to the Federation in ways that are ... more politically visible than preventing disaster, let's say. That is, I think that our science and engineering cruisers should be built to be capable of pirate patrol, as something they do while they're doing everything else they do.
 
(Why pay more tax/resources to build more warships when you're not at war and have never had combat happen near you? That's how I expect Federation citizens to feel.)
Well good thing we can point to 3 times in history that combat has come for the federation 2 of which caused massacres. 1 of which NUKED EARTH AND OTHER COLONIES. In fact, the Klingons are pretty good for this because they will show the core worlds that it turns out space is full of deadly people who want to murder you
 
I wonder, I wonder, what that might look like. :thonk:

I'm certainly in favor of pirate patrols. I think we'll probably get more of them if the ships we have doing them are also providing value to the Federation in ways that are ... more politically visible than preventing disaster, let's say. That is, I think that our science and engineering cruisers should be built to be capable of pirate patrol, as something they do while they're doing everything else they do.
Agreed. I'm sure I'm worse than a broken record but I really want a sort of warp 8 Newton with better sublights, weapons and shields. It'd do patrol, light transport and courier and lets us respond faster to incursion.

Edit: also lets us get rid of the pre-Federation Cygnus we're still using =O
 
I mean it is worth pointing out that variable use type ships are useful. The NX-Class helped hold the line long enough for us to create the dreadnoughts back during the Romulan war.
 
Darwin's got that. Only question is how much better it'll have in weapons.

Granted, if we make a well specialized ship I'm not sure how many of them will get built.
I respectfully disagree. Bio survey is a situational application, whereas you'll always need buoys, spare parts and supplies transported but find an Archer class is excessive, which the Newton class did, alongside engineering support.
 
We might soon be having designs capable of a sprint of warp 8.5 once those nacelles are out
Uhm.
Excalibur-class Heavy Cruiser [2225]
[...]
Warp (Maximum Warp): 8.6 (636c)
We're already there and then some.
On the contrary, suppressing piracy isn't a one-and-done thing. It's a continuous job, like having a military to defend yourself with. Just because you win one war doesn't mean you're completely safe forever.
You're misunderstanding.

The point being made is not, "Once you wipe out all the pirates, piracy suppression is useless."

The point being made is, "Once you have enough ships on antipiracy patrol on a permanent, ongoing basis to wipe out piracy within your area of influence, building and assigning additional ships to do more antipiracy patrols is useless."

Once you have 0 piracy, you obviously can't stop doing antipiracy work, but you also have zero marginal value from doing more antipiracy work.
On your first point where are you getting 2 years to un mothball a ship,
The Iowa-class battleships, as the only example of pinnacle warships being taken out of full mothballs that I could think of offhand. They took about two years for an extremely half-assed and unsatisfactory job.

A cargo ship company's blog post claims they took "3-4 weeks to restart a vessel that is in cold laid-up." This is a long ways below fully mothballed- while nobody's living aboard full-time, it involves having maintenance personnel on board regularly (as in, multiple days a week) doing inspection, maintenance, regular power-up, testing, and power-down all of its rotating equipment to ensure continued functioning, monitoring its moorings, etc. It is not fully drained of fluids.
As for the crew I was personally thinking we could train the colonies to man them.
HOLY FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, NO. ABSOLUTELY THE FUCK NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER.

It is an explicit part of Starfleet's purpose and function- a very minor part, but indubitably part of our actual job- to be "the guys who we trust to have antimatter", so that the Federation can keep antimatter, antimatter-powered ships, and antimatter weaponry out of the hands of anyone except Starfleet itself and its member worlds' own navies. Colonies do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. Core worlds do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. If you want access to antimatter, join Starfleet. (Or a major research university, if you only need a few thousand antiprotons every once in a while.)

Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony and stationing the relative handful of Starfleet personnel that it would require there is one thing. It's not a proposal I'd vote for myself, but it's wildly farfetched or anything, just uneconomical.

Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony for them to crew locally? In-setting, even seriously proposing it would be a career-ending level of idiotic mistake. Out-of-setting, I would argue against it vociferously and at tedious length. Even if you trust their maintenance and access-control to be literally perfect forever (and I very much do not) it puts too much destructive power too close to too many minor unsupervised political shenanigans.
As for your 3 point which is cheaper having to constantly rebuild all our infernstuture or having a few cheap guard ships [...] In simple terms what is the value you hold for the ability to not have to worry about making our ships half warship all the time. That is the value of a warship.
It's massively cheaper to make all our ships half warship than it is to make so many full warships that we don't need to.
 
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Once you have 0 piracy, you obviously can't stop doing antipiracy work, but you also have zero marginal value from doing more antipiracy work.
The break-point is honestly well above 0, given how much starships cost to operate. Going past that requires political and ideological incentives rather than just economic ones - which is probably why the Federation has as much of a piracy problem as it does at the moment.
 
We're already there and then some.
Even better, so our later warp 8 drives can probably hit warp 8.8 without any exotic picks. An intruding BoP would find that utterly terrifying, seeing a Starfleet ship bearing down on them at nearly warp 9 in the 2250s I think!

Edit: Edited some stuff. How can people stand to try to post coherent comments from phones? Bleurgh.
 
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HOLY FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, NO. ABSOLUTELY THE FUCK NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER.

It is an explicit part of Starfleet's purpose and function- a very minor part, but indubitably part of our actual job- to be "the guys who we trust to have antimatter", so that the Federation can keep antimatter, antimatter-powered ships, and antimatter weaponry out of the hands of anyone except Starfleet itself and its member worlds' own navies. Colonies do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. Core worlds do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. If you want access to antimatter, join Starfleet. (Or a major research university, if you only need a few thousand antiprotons every once in a while.)

Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony and stationing the relative handful of Starfleet personnel that it would require there is one thing. It's not a proposal I'd vote for myself, but it's wildly farfetched or anything, just uneconomical.
What about the constable class we made... cause that has an antimatter reactor, and we gave that to so many colony words to act as a pirate hunter/protection ship. Only got stolen once. I am not advocating stationing a battleship in every colony, I want a ship to protect the colony from pirate raiders and the like. Because if all our main ships are off doing other tasks, we need something anything to provide some sort of security.

edite: If its just the antimatter that's the worry we can just not include torpedoes. Phaser only patrol craft sounds good to me.
 
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What about the constable class we made
As best I can tell, the constable class was more nearly analogous to a coast guard cutter than it was to a police car.

It was also a very weird project in general, so ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ idk really

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edite: If its just the antimatter that's the worry we can just not include torpedoes. Phaser only patrol craft sounds good to me.
it has been pretty thoroughly hammered in by now that phaser only craft suck and are just cannon fodder to anything worth worrying about. There are enough pirates out there in Orion interceptors and only-one-or-two-generations-old Birds of Prey for "can chase off a civvy cargo ship with a hundred-year-old disruptor duct-taped to it" to be worth spending money on.
 
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The Constable class is, like, barely capable of interstellar travel. I wouldn't expect to find it anywhere but home systems of major Federation members and maybe some of the first colonies.

It's certainly cheaper than trying to drop a warship in mothballs but I think it's also incapable of actually opposing an Orion pirate or anything else similarly serious.
 
The Constable class is, like, barely capable of interstellar travel. I wouldn't expect to find it anywhere but home systems of major Federation members and maybe some of the first colonies.

It's certainly cheaper than trying to drop a warship in mothballs but I think it's also incapable of actually opposing an Orion pirate or anything else similarly serious.
So what we need is a up-gunned constable but it needs to be cheap.. I think we can do it.
 
Kind of annoying that solar systems are large enough that even a system defence monitor needs warp capability to be meaningfully more tactically significant than a station. Being able to skip the whole warp assembly would Really save on cost (make the whole thing small enough to fit in an archer's cargo pod for delivery to the intended system).
 
[x] Two Forward Torpedoes, Two Aft (Cost: 53 -> 62) [-1 Modules]

Not sure I actually voted, so here we go.
 
Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony and stationing the relative handful of Starfleet personnel that it would require there is one thing. It's not a proposal I'd vote for myself, but it's wildly farfetched or anything, just uneconomical.
Its not only uneconomical, its strategically stupid.
That kind of deployment invites defeat in detail, where a single six-ship squadron goes from planet to planet rolling up your dispersed Defiants. We essentially just saw this happen at the beginning of the ongoing war.

Horrible idea in general.
 
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