Starfleet Design Bureau

And the flip side of this is that making starships that can't fight disproportionately hits our ability to defend ourselves; the marginal cost to turn a "civvie" starship into something that can fight is much smaller than the cost of building a pure combatant powerful enough to cover the hole a noncombat vessel leaves in our lines.
The two aren't actually equivalent, because there is a rather significant effect in requiring militarization to the extent of line-combatant for every design that isn't present in requiring non-combat use for every combat vessel. There are some tasks where the expected mission deployment for the ship just plain isn't compatible with that demand.
 
The two aren't actually equivalent, because there is a rather significant effect in requiring militarization to the extent of line-combatant for every design that isn't present in requiring non-combat use for every combat vessel.
Every Starfleet ship has shields, period. Every Starfleet cruiser post-Kea carries torpedoes, period. The difference from that to "will not be a waste of fuel and lives to put in a battle line" is actually really low.

We can maybe justify building small frigates that can't fight. They're small, so their shields don't cost much, and (unlike cruisers) we're not committed to mounting torpedo tubes. Of course, small frigates aren't going to be impressive at anything else, either, given they lack the space to carry large amounts of utility modules. And given they'll still have significant base cost in the form of that warp core and nacelles, we certainly won't be able to justify them until we've replaced a significant chunk of Starfleet's fleet with Warp 8 ships that can fight.
 
You're misunderstanding.

The point being made is not, "Once you wipe out all the pirates, piracy suppression is useless."

The point being made is, "Once you have enough ships on antipiracy patrol on a permanent, ongoing basis to wipe out piracy within your area of influence, building and assigning additional ships to do more antipiracy patrols is useless."

Once you have 0 piracy, you obviously can't stop doing antipiracy work, but you also have zero marginal value from doing more antipiracy work.
Except piracy is only part of the equation. The real problem is other militaries. And you're going to need a LOT more fleet to get to the point where you can safely say that, say, the Klingon Empire is no threat to you.

The Iowa-class battleships, as the only example of pinnacle warships being taken out of full mothballs that I could think of offhand. They took about two years for an extremely half-assed and unsatisfactory job.
This is a false equivalence. A ship in space, with its atmosphere vented and everything decomissioned, should have very few components that need replacing. The only thing that decays or wears would be naturally radioactive materials with a half-life. Everything else? No air or water to provide wear and tear, no moving parts, no organisms, no rust, no nothing. Sure, you'd need to replace/refill fluids that expire, but again, that's not a big process given how almost no such components are ever mentioned in Star Trek's technobabble.

HOLY FLYING SPAGHETTI MONSTER, NO. ABSOLUTELY THE FUCK NOT IN ANY CIRCUMSTANCES WHATSOEVER.

It is an explicit part of Starfleet's purpose and function- a very minor part, but indubitably part of our actual job- to be "the guys who we trust to have antimatter", so that the Federation can keep antimatter, antimatter-powered ships, and antimatter weaponry out of the hands of anyone except Starfleet itself and its member worlds' own navies. Colonies do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. Core worlds do not get to have antimatter-powered starships to crew with their local National Guard. If you want access to antimatter, join Starfleet. (Or a major research university, if you only need a few thousand antiprotons every once in a while.)

Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony and stationing the relative handful of Starfleet personnel that it would require there is one thing. It's not a proposal I'd vote for myself, but it's wildly farfetched or anything, just uneconomical.

Putting a Defiant in more-or-less-ready reserve on every colony for them to crew locally? In-setting, even seriously proposing it would be a career-ending level of idiotic mistake. Out-of-setting, I would argue against it vociferously and at tedious length. Even if you trust their maintenance and access-control to be literally perfect forever (and I very much do not) it puts too much destructive power too close to too many minor unsupervised political shenanigans.

It's massively cheaper to make all our ships half warship than it is to make so many full warships that we don't need to.
That makes no sense. Nuclear bombs are 1940s technology. Fusion bombs are 1960s technology. It's really not that hard. Compared to that, antimatter weaponry is more hassle than it's worth. Frankly, the firepower of warships in Star Trek is such that using antimatter as anything but fuel or a makeshift bomb is wasteful.

Unlike nuclear weapons, antimatter weaponry would be so difficult to manufacture, handle, and deal with that any would-be rogue colonists would just use antimatter as fuel and normal starship weapons for fighting.

Given that pirates use antimatter-powered warships too, it's not like it's a ridiculously controlled substance. It's so troublesome to work with that you wouldn't use it if you didn't have to (IE, fuel).

Regardless, the idea of having heavy frigates stationed at each colony for self-defense is a fine one provided you can afford to produce that many heavy frigates. Manning them would not be a big deal since the crew requirements would be so low (a dozen people per ship is...really not much, and it's not like the ships would have much wear given that they'd be sitting in orbit most of the time). It's the cost of building them that presents the problem.
 
and the Hauteclere faced the ultimate indignity of being used to prop up the Terran Empire for an extra hundred years in the mirror universe.
Oh sweet - we've created a PARALLEL MIRROR UNIVERSE!
Sweet Jesus.

Begin executions of Newton-class Captains on open subspace frequencies for failing to use their High Maneuverability in battle!

All Hail Emperor Klavo!!!

2155 - Hoshi Sato has Captain Archer assassinated, seizing command of the USS Hauteclere and declaring herself Empress of the Terran Empire.

Moments later, she disappears in a sparkle of transporter light off Hauteclere's bridge, marking the end of one of the shortest reigns in Imperial history as her molecules are irretrievably scattered. Emperor Klavo I beams aboard the Hauteclere's bridge from the Transporter Room and assumes command of the ship and the Empire.

The following years are filled with consolidation of the Empire around Earth, Vulcan, Andor and the nearest colonies, using the rechristianed ISS Hauteclere as the Emperor's flying palace and biggest stick. The Rebellion had nearly defeated the Empire before Hauteclere's coming, and few Imperial Starfleet vessels remained to secure their territory and freight lanes. Doling out tidbits from Hauteclere's library computer to engineers and scientists who would be nothing without his patronage, Emperor Klavo spearheads the recovery of Terran industry, and growth of his own network of loyalists.

2163 - The prototype ISS Cygnus launches, bristling with modern phasers and photonic torpedoes, shields, sensors, transporters, a fabrication workshop, and significant space for cargo, colonists, and Terran Marines. The designers had been handed an already-complete blueprint, and simply had to swap the Federation-style brig for a suite of Agony Booths. With Hauteclere's overwhelming tactical supremacy, there would be no cause to fear even an entire fleet of these ships rebelling against the Emperor. The first tranche included ISS Trumpeter, Hellgeese, Black Swan, Peregrine, Haast, Bald Eagle, and Mute. The surviving nonhuman engineers at Utopia Planitia who provided much of the technical labor in bringing their advanced systems online were given modest rewards, including a taste of home as these high-warp vessels returned to Terra with their bellies full of treasure and slaves from Andor, Vulcan, Tellar, Denobula, Rigel, and Coridan. Even after they had proven themselves, these technical specialists were watched closely by suspicious Terran minders as they started on the next tranche of vessels...

The logs of the future alternate-universe Federation indicated there were numerous plagues, pathogens, and parasites that lay in wait for their colonists, but the cures for many already lay in Hauteclere's databanks, allowing the most rich and fruitful colonies to be colonized 'early'. The workshops aboard these vessels were able to provide additional material support to these rapidly-developing colonies - in exchange for a few small favors here and there. With strong tactical systems and a high warp cruise speed for the era, the Cygnus was untouchable by all but the best-equipped rebel groups, and success would only bring the Emperor himself down upon them. Mass-production of these continued in lieu of science ships, as their future counterparts had already found and catalogued most anomalies within Imperial territory. Over a hundred of these vessels would be built, consuming resources that would have gone into their Federation counterparts' Andorian Guard and Vulcan Science Fleet, and cannibalizing civilian merchant production competing for Type-2 Warp Nacelles long after they are no longer considered frontline warships.

2175 - The first Conquistador-class Battleship is completed in time for the Emperor's 20th anniversary of his reign, personally christening it ISS Cortez. The design is a merging of the Federation's Sagarmatha and Radiant-class designs, arranging a quadruple set of Type-Three Warp Nacelles in a supercruise configuration of two pairs on extended pylons above and below an enormous 140-meter saucer and inline secondary hull. The ventral facing of the saucer contains a hull blister for the navigational deflector, and nestled behind it is a superheavy assault landing craft that the Emperor seemed amused to refer to as a 'Captain's Yacht'. This was the Emperor's vision to lay low many future threats to the Empire at once before they become problems, choosing multiple distant stars Terran probes had never visited before. Eschewing the manyfold science labs of the vessel that was their inspiration, the Conquistadors focus on their role of long-distance strike vessels, packing in additional antimatter storage cells, cargo bays full of prefabicated garrison bases and war skimmers, and multiple stasis-chamber barracks for Terran Marines - to say nothing of the doubled-up phaser capacitor banks, or the additional photon torpedo tubes. Vessels like ISS Napoleon, Genghis, and Tamerlane are sent on voyages to faraway planets that only the Emperor has ever heard of, with strange names like Cardassia, Bajor, and Ferenginar. Their captains ordered to conquer or destroy these worlds, with the guaranteed prize of appointment Governor-for-Life of the planet if they succeeded...

2180 - Emperor Klavo begins the Sack of Qo'nos, using the high warp and realspace speeds of Hauteclere in a deep raid to slice through intercepting primitive Klingon Battlecruisers before executing a commando strike on Praxis, inserting a battalion of troops to sabotage the moon's thermal core tap. The moon's detonation devastates Qo'nos, gutting the Klingon Empire.

2181 - Returning home in triumph with Hauteclere damaged and missing most of her marines, Emperor Klavo is unsurprised to find the latest Conquistador's Captain raising their flag as a challenger to his rule. ISS Ponce De Leon and the squadron of Cygnuses the would-be Emperor had rallied are all destroyed in the ensuing battle, but additional battle damage to Hauteclere forces Emperor Klavo to cancel his plans to sack Romulus and Remus next. This gives time for the main axis of popular resistance to Terran domination to shift to the Romulans, who begin a covert program of exploration and resettlement away from the Terran Empire whilst buying themselves time by supporting any surviving rebel groups they come in contact with.

2183 - Launch of ISS Phillip Green, the final Conquistador-class battleship. The Emperor feels that the window of opportunity to destroy the Empire's future enemies in advance this way is closing, and discontent in the Empire is growing from the lack of new conquests that directly expand the Empire's borders and return with treasure. This frees up production of the new warp nacelle components for more affordable vessels. Launch of ISS Hussar, a hybrid of the Federation Saladin-class Destroyer and its proposed Hermes Scout subtype, replacing the scientific labs with a dedicated secondary computer core optimized for filtering signals from galactic background noise and deciphering encryption schemes. This comes as a response to escalating retaliatory raids from the surviving Klingon Great Houses, with squadrons of new-model Birds-of-Prey just barely able to catch up to a Cygnus and strike from cloak, able to overcome even the vessels refit with proper Photon Torpedoes.

The Hussar acts as a convoy escort and endurance predator, with its external nacelle's performance allowing it to catch up to the internal-warp-engine Bird of Prey after their warp intercoolers overheat, with enough firepower to shatter the fragile Klingon ships if any flaw is detected in their cloaking screen. Analysis of one of these new Klingon ships' wreckage shows that imitation Terran Type-Three warp engine components are being used, indicating a conspiracy of espionage within the Empire.

2184 - Launch of ISS Slavecatcher, a copy of the Federation Constable-class meant for inglorious police duties, including counter-espionage. The repaired ISS Hauteclere raids into Klingon space again, razing Narenda III to temporarily stem their retaliations against the Terran Empire. This time the returning Emperor's triumph is not sullied by rebellion.

2185 - Launch of ISS Moscow. The Moscow-class is a battlecruiser based off the Federation Kea-class hull, sporting the same all-around type-two phaser coverage and forward photon torpedoes. Some components are more primitive, such as her Optical Computer Core, but her quadruple impulse drives raise the cost, maneuverability, and therefore tactical ability of this vessel to a shadow of what Hauteclere is capable of. Visitors from our timeline familiar with the Kea will be advised that they will find the Moscow's Main Cargo Bay in place of the Kea's Arboretum, an expanded shuttlebay and additional antimatter pods in place of the dilithium analysis lab and secondary computer core; Planetary Assault Scanners in place of the main science labs, Marine Barracks in place of Astrometrics, Photon Torpedo bay in place of Biosciences, and an expanded sickbay in place of the Geology Lab.

The ISS Moscow is captained by a handpicked loyalist to the Emperor, and is dispatched to the planet Betazed. This easy conquest of a beautiful planet, beautiful species, and their treasured artifacts bolsters the Emperor's rule. Production of the Moscow and Hussar benefit from the built-up infrastructure for Conquistador saucer sections and nacelles. Follow-on vessels include ISS London, Washington, Beijing, New Delhi, and Paris.

2192 - While chasing a rebel ship, ISS Sipahi picks up distant subspace transmissions. After dispatching their target and then listening in for weeks with the Hussar-class ship's computers crunching data at maximum capacity, they found a stellar phenomena causing transmissions from the Kzinti Matriarchy to be echoed to the space Sipahi inadvertently had crossed through. Sipahi's Captain is promoted to Captain of the next Moscow coming out of the yards, and a war fleet is assembled without public explanation, spooking the Romulans into a defensive stance.

2193 - Terran Empire invades Kzinti Matriarchy. Fighting in space and on the ground is extraordinarily intense, with Terran Marines meeting Kzinti 'Tomcat' subsapient battle-thralls in bloody hand-to-claw combat with swords and bayonets, while Matriarchy rifle-tigresses lay down disruptor and artillery fire from the safety of anti-skimmer cover. The Kzinti Fleet throws everything they have at the Terrans, from warships, to auxiliary warships bodged together from freighters, all the way down to hastily-refitted yachts, race craft, and runabouts with their inertial dampeners on suicidal settings, bloodying Terran fleets over every one of their worlds despite the presence of ISS Hauteclere. Unfortunately, the Terrans have the Type-Two Phaser Banks that Starfleet had designed with their Kzinti War in mind, and this means the Kzinti's magnificent resistance is met with interlocking fields of blue phaser fire, allowing Terran vessels to blast threats off of one another. The Kzinti end up resorting to ramming tactics in a bid to take a few more Terrans with them.

2197 - Kzinhome conquered. Imperial Triumph wildly celebrated across the Empire as catgirls are brought to Terra in chains. The bacchanalia of this Triumph is imitated at parties for a long, long time to come.

2200 - The new century is celebrated with the launch of ISS Archer, promising the delivery of bulk masses of priority cargo and construction of crucial infrastructure in the colonies. With inferior impulse drives and hull material to the Federation version, its high warp sprint speed and aft photon torpedo nonetheless keep it safe from Klingon Birds of Prey and other rebel ships trying to raid the bounty of their cargo pods. These form the backbone of the Emperor's 5-Year industrial plans, and are considered plum postings by Engineering division due to their recreational facilities.

2210s-2220s - Gorn and Tholian border conflicts. Second Klingon Punishment Chevauchee. Conquests of Trill and Risa. All are led by Moscow-class ships and their Captains rather than the Emperor and Hauteclere, as the Empire's finest engineers focus their efforts on recreating the most complicated of the Excalibur-class starship's systems, struggling every step of the way. Launch of ISS Kaga as a Cruiser-Carrier based off the Federation Newton-class, removing the paltry cargo space in lieu of packing in more deck space for starfighters and/or atmospheric assault gunships. Launch of ISS Darwin as a Planetary Assault Ship, cramming in a second Type-2 impulse engine to make up for continued failures in testing of the Type-3, and losing some of the Starfleet vessel's phaser and photon torpedo firepower.

2234 - Terran-Romulan War begins when Romulan Intelligence picks up on the construction of a full sister to Hauteclere, deciding they have run out of time. Cloaked Warbirds descend on starbases in multiple Imperial systems when suddenly cloaked missile pods that had been positioned months or years prior open fire, adding overwhelming weight of fire to break the Terran fortifications. Coordinated rebellions break out across a dozen worlds, saboteurs aboard Imperial ships begin their work, and Klingon Birds of Prey prowl the spacelanes in great numbers once more.

2244 - Terran-Romulan War ends with the conquest of Romulus and Remus. Tens of millions of Terran Marines lie dead across battlefields between here and Galorndon Core, and reports indicate that the Remans' deepest underground redoubts still resist. To the Emperor's dismay, Romulus is mostly evacuated, leaving few slaves to be taken and enough booby traps that Terran engineers spend years disarming them all.

2255 - After a century of rule, the now-elderly Emperor summons his closest loyalists to Hauteclere, and announces the appointment of Christopher Pike as Regent to rule the Empire in his stead, while Hauteclere will voyage to find and conquer the hidden planet of the Ba'ku, and its fountain of youth...

2265 - Captain James Tiberius Kirk assumes command of the Excalibur-class ISS Enterprise.

2266 - Regent Christopher Pike is inspecting a cadet training vessel when one of its baffle plates ruptures, causing a radiation leak. He orders his bodyguards to save the surviving cadets, but the Regent receives a crippling dose of delta radiation, and has to be placed on life support. The Imperial Civil War begins…

=============================================================

2175 - ISS Cortez (Tzenketh) - Forced to destroy Tzenketh with cobalt-jacketed fusion bombs when the locals provided too much resistance. The surviving crew of the Cortez began limping their damaged ship home, returning in 2XXX to a heroes' welcome and official Imperial Triumph.
2176 - ISS Napoleon (Cardassia) - Initial conquest of the deeply-spiritual local people goes smoothly at first, but the planet's resource-poorness and escalating active and passive resistance from the locals mean that the Captain-Governor's rule is insecure and not fruitful. Destroyed in 2XXX by a Bajoran fleet, which incorporates Cardassia into their Theocracy.
2177 - ISS Genghis (Bajor) - Initial conquest of the deeply-spiritual local people goes smoothly at first, but then Bajorans say that 'the Celestial Temple opened up in the night sky' and an unidentified purple warship emerged, casually shooting through Genghis' defenses and boarding her with troops who slaughter every Terran onboard before disappearing. The wreck of Genghis is left in a stable orbit, and without support, Terran Marines and fleet personnel stranded on the ground are overwhelmed by renewed fanaticism of the Warrior D'jarra. Genghis' wreck is traveled to by lightship and her systems studied, and the Bajoran people strive to make themselves a power to be reckoned with.
2178 - ISS Tamerlane (Ferenginar) - Encountering a warp drive-using civilization, Tamerlane's Captain engages and destroys several Marauders, but before they can turn their guns or Marines on the planet below, they receive an intriguing offer of a controlling 51% share in the entire Ferengi Alliance. The Captain-Governor decides to take the safe win instead of risking it all, and to the current date this arrangement remains intact, with the first gift of tribute to the Empire arriving in 2XXX.
2179 - ISS Columbus (Sigma Tama IV) - Encountering a warp drive-using civilization, Columbus' Captain engages the Tamarians, but is ultimately destroyed by the advanced weapons of the Tamarian fleet after pummeling their first few warships with a brute tonnage advantage and boarding parties.
2180 - ISS Magellan (Angosia III) - Initial conquest of the inherently non-violent local people goes smoothly at first, but then the Angosians strike back with super-soldiers who board and sabotage the Magellan in orbit, destroying her.
2181 - ISS Ponce De Leon (Destroyed) - Destroyed by ISS Hauteclere.
2182 - ISS Drake (Zakdorn) - Encountering a warp drive-using civilization, Drake's Captain engages the Zakdorn, but is ultimately destroyed after being lured into a trap, proving the Zakdorn's legendary grasp of strategy once more.
2183 - ISS Phillip Green (Bynaus) - Encountering a warp-drive-using, cybernetically-enhanced civilization, the Green engages and destroys the Bynar Defense Force, and then disables enough of their planetary server nodes to force the Bynar to surrender before their civilization is totally destroyed. Merchant shipping is advised to steer clear of the Terran Bastion of Bynaus to avoid privateers.
 
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with its atmosphere vented
I'm gonna be extremely nitpicky here and mention vacuum cementing, while conceding the rest of your point because "replace the atmosphere with pure nitrogen" would work perfectly fine.

I still think it's economically infeasible and strategically insane, but I'll concede it's at least logistically possible.

it's not like it's a ridiculously controlled substance.
In quest at least it is:

Exhibit A: Supporting evidence from a threadmarked post:
four survived by being transferred to the civilian sector where they were fitted with standard fusion plants to power the warp drive. As of 2360 two Archer-class ships remain active
Exhibit B: non-threadmarked QM statement (emphasis mine):
the majority of civilian designs have to run on pure fusion because nobody wants to give unmonitored people a major supply of antimatter. Even on TNG we see civilian ships running at low warp factors. It's like if interstellar travel used Orion drive. Nobody is going to be handing out the nuclear payloads. Civilian traffic would have to use ion drives or something far more difficult to weaponise.

My guess is as tech improves the power:speed ratios that's when you see improvements to civilian warp drives.
meaning "they don't get antimatter ever; civilian ship warp speeds only increase as the greater efficiency of modern warp drive tech means higher warp factors are achievable on fusion power, and will always be significantly behind Starfleet"
Or you only give antimatter reactors to larger organisations that be trusted, like planetary cargo services.
meaning "alternatively, if Warp drive efficiency doesn't increase enough, and even acceptable warp speed for the era ends up requiring more power than fusion can provide, then the Federation would eventually bow to the practicalities and carefully-chosen civilian operators would be able to get antimatter permissions eventually, in at earliest the TNG era."

So carefully-vetted civilian organizations might plausibly be granted access to antimatter by the TNG era, although the Federation policymakers would prefer that not be required, and will avoid it if technological development permits them to do so.

I suppose in that case it's not entirely inconceivable for <militias/police/local Guards/other arms-bearing official government organisations which are not Armed Services in the international law sense> to be granted antimatter privileges even earlier than that, although I still think this is pretty early; TMP-era is a likelier time for that to start happening, imo.



I'm also deeply uncomfortable putting modern warships (regardless of power source!) in the sphere of influence (even if not under the nominal authority) of local political interests, particularly with such small crews expected to be away from their ship the vast majority of the time- it just makes them too vulnerable to pressure to take or not take particular actions, not to mention the relative ease of grand theft starship. That is however a separate (and probably much more contentious) issue, whereas the antimatter-control one is clearly established quest-canon.

These form the backbone of the Emperor's 5-Year industrial plans, and are considered plum postings by Engineering division due to their immens
rest of sentence is missing
 
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I mean, in principle, yes, but you're looking at "worse than a Selachii" and expecting it to stand up to, if not invasion, at least serious incursion. That seems recklessly overoptimistic.
I respectfully disagree. Our combat technology has vastly improved since the Selachii-class. Light/medium covariant shields, 2/3/4x fore and 2x aft torpedo launchers, modern phasers and type 3 impulse drives could make a far, far more effective monitor/anti-piracy/system defense vessel than the Selachii-class and provided the warp 7 drive and single nacelle are significantly cheaper than just building a full-on warp 8 starship, could be drastically more economical under certain circumstances.

In particular around important worlds where piracy and in-system raiding is a potential concern, or where the benefits of deterring any incursion by single or small groups of enemy vessels is extremely valuable (multiple colonized planets in the same system with exchanges of rare materials, starship-building industry etc) we could pair 2-3 such hypothetical system monitors with a small defense station, see the idea I had about said station design spamming a large number of the now-crazy cheap single-fire photorp launchers entirely or mostly all in a single firing cone, maneuvering to keep that cone pointed at the incoming enemy, and lobbing volleys of torpedoes at incoming ships. Attendant monitors could help defend the torpedo barrage station and exploit enemy tactics when they try to split up or disperse to avoid the torpedo doom cone, chasing down and ganging up on ships that are trying to evade.

It wouldn't stop a Klingon fleet, but provided we got some warning and could chuck some more reinforcement ships there, it would certainly make taking the planet a painful proposition, and even if we were caught out of position you'd need, say, 8 D6s or better to guarantee a victory, meaning the enemy either has to devote a lot of military resources, making them vulnerable to retaliation by Excalibur-class battlecruisers while they sit in our territory and lick their wounds, or they risk losing a lot of ships and failing to take the target. That in itself could destabilize the Klingon Great Houses, losing valuable warships and crews and failing to take new territory or resources.

Edit: Assuming doing this is cheaper than building a larger number of Excaliburs, Newtons or future warp 8 cruisers, of course.

Not a flawless strategy, I'm sure wiser brains can see issues with that, I certainly can. But thought I'd put the ideas out there in case any other Questers find anything in there useful.
 
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Edit: There is no need to get that heated or sling insults.

It would not be orders of magnitude, it would, at most, be a doubling of ships. The federation is still only a few dozen worlds, not hundreds. And you wouldnt need them on every single planet, those with orbiting stardocks, member fleets, or even sufficient quantities of the new SanFran defense satellites could also do the job. Right now we are bleeding because most of our frontier worlds have nothing but hand phasers and shuttle pods.

And an ambush from a decloaking vessel is not an instant loss condition, especially if you have more than one ship on station.


I'm not going to deny there are plenty of issues with the idea, but it's at least worth debating for the post war climate. Can we afford garrisons? Probably not. But the option needs to be debated before getting shelved as impractical.
I did not mean to insult anyone.
And I apologize profusely if I came off that way.


A parked starship eating a photon torpedo is very much an instaloss. Even ships with crews aboard generally dont have shields up at rest and do die if they come under fire before they get their shields up; in 2155, the NX-class UES Discovery was killed at the beginning of the Romulan War when it ate atomic torpedoes with its defenses down.
But while internal affairs were becoming more secure, the borders were less so. In late October of 2155, the UES Discovery came under a surprise attack from a flight of Romulan warbirds equipped with cloaking devices. Caught without its defenses by a barrage of atomic warheads, the NX-class ship was half-crippled in the opening salvo and unable to effectively respond or escape. The ship's fate was not confirmed until the wreckage was discovered by the VCS Selak in late December at its last known position. After salvaging the data recorder, Starfleet was made aware that the Romulans were now conducting armed incursions into the area.
Thats an established fact in this quest.
A parked and powered down ship is simply a target.

Other posters have made it clear that the Federation numbers in the hundreds of colony worlds.
A Federation that has the resources to put not one but two or more starships at every frontier or colony world has a navy so fuckhuge that no other polity in the Alpha Quadrant is going to fuck with it.

Thats not the Federation we see
 
<generally well-thought-out post snipped>

Edit: Assuming doing this is cheaper than building a larger number of Excaliburs, Newtons or future warp 8 cruisers, of course.

The long and short of things is no, it's not. Not even close. Maybe not even by an order of magnitude.nah, it's not that much more expensive. Factor of three or four, maybe.

The folks talking about sector bases with QRFs on station are maybe onto something, but even that smaller number of larger and more capable (and thus more cost-efficient) ships is an enormous construction expense to have sitting still most of the time.
 
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Weapons and shields are our main expenses outside warpcores meaning we want our ships as big as possible with at least medium mobility by default to justify arming ships decently, unlike the Kea where we decided it was too slow to justify torpedoes.
 
Weapons and shields are our main expenses outside warpcores meaning we want our ships as big as possible with at least medium mobility by default to justify arming ships decently, unlike the Kea where we decided it was too slow to justify torpedoes.

That reasoning was wrong anyway. Starfleet command is giving them torpedoes because it doesn't matter how slow you are, in a 40 v 40 fleet battle your torpedoes are going to be pointed at somebody.

The same reason why I've always supported decent coverage so any ship could support another ship with phasers in large fleet battles.
 
Welcome to defense spending I'm afraid.

There really isnt much getting around it, if you don't want to get sucker punched, you must have enough deterrence in place Before the enemy decides to fuck around and find out. And that means spending on weapons that may never once be fired in anger, effectively dumping it into a hole where it only comes out if things go horribly wrong.

Even leaving aside the Klingons belief they could take our fleet in a straight fight, we have proven Starfleet conclusively incapable of defending the Federations frontier in it's current state. And regardless of who eventually gets blamed for that, it's a state of affairs that must change.
 
The long and short of things is no, it's not. Not even close. Maybe not even by an order of magnitude.nah, it's not that much more expensive. Factor of three or four, maybe.

The folks talking about sector bases with QRFs on station are maybe onto something, but even that smaller number of larger and more capable (and thus more cost-efficient) ships is an enormous construction expense to have sitting still most of the time.
I am gonna say that we need smaller assists because space is BIG and only having a few powerful but expensive ones is just asking for someone to attack where our ships can't respond in time. We need something to protect colonies and trade. With only a few ships around you can have invasion forces take out many systems before our fleet gathers to counterattack in fact that's literally what happened with the Klingons.
While the core worlds and earlier members were indeed bound together by webs of trade that sustained the majority of Federal industry, this quickly fell by the wayside as one travelled further from the central bubble. Colonies on the far periphery were isolated and practically self-sufficient, and the latest member worlds were often connected by singular trade and logistic routes to the Federation interior. Pharos and K-series stations supported Starfleet deployments even within the borders, acting as required refuelling and resupply stops for a fleet that was too slow and too thinly spread to truly control the vast area that was now occupied by dozens of small settlements. Not for nothing was the 23rd century considered the Golden Age of Orion Piracy, where criminal extortion was common and sometimes the orbits were contested not by criminals and Starfleet but criminals and other criminals.

The Klingon Empire rolled over the border in March of 2240 without warning, not simply extorting the local colonies but outright conquering them. Those that were simply pastoral settlements were looted and left with no uncertainty as to who now ruled them, while those that had access to valuable materials were occupied and the population redistributed towards extractive industry. Starfleet's response was sluggish and disordered. Was this a major raid or the start of an all-out war? Only half a dozen ships were in range and were assembled at the nearest station to form an emergency taskforce as a larger response was organised in the interior.

That emergency taskforce never even got to leave before being attacked. The K-5 station was hit by a full fleet of House D'Ghor vessels, a collection of D6 cruisers and Birds-of-Prey over twenty ships strong. The pair of Newton-class cruisers, trio of Selachii-class frigates, and the Kea-class UFS Corella were overwhelmed immediately. The newly-designed defense satellites out of San Francisco that the Newtons had been assembling were not yet operational but would have made little difference. The Klingons lost a single Bird-of-Prey, destroyed K-5, and eliminated every Federation starship in the sector in a matter of minutes. Over seven hundred personnel were killed.

In the following weeks multiple House Fleets freely marauded through the border colonies while others struck deeper in the Federation interior. Klingon advance forces were soon harassing even decades-old settlements in the vicinity of Regulus and Tau Hydrae. Starfleet did not spend the time idle, and in May of 2240 a major response fleet had been assembled to counter the Klingon push. Fourteen Newton-class cruisers, the now refit Kea-class Macaw and Rosella, eight Selachii-class frigates, the hastily restored from partial decommissioning Sagarmatha-class Fuji and Vesuvius, and the Excalibur-class Curtana, Tizona, and Clarent.
We got bodied, like some of this can be attributed to star fleet intel dropping the ball SO HARD WE LITERALLY DIDN'T KNOW WE WHERE AT WAR WITH THE KLINGONS.

However that's not the only thing see my first bold section, piracy is so bad we don't control the orbitals of most of our far colonies.

Seconded bolded section, the whole not having ships whose job is to be in range bits us in the but, not enough ships in range to counter the Klingons advance. And the ships that where there only got ONE KILL a bird of prey. Sure, they are old, but this shows a serious lack of tactical ability.

Fourth Bold, Klingons RUN RAMPET Killing and stealing while our fleet of few, but expensive assists get called back from whatever exploring/ other things they were doing instead of guarding. IT TOOK 2 MONTHS TO GET A FLEET TOGETHER TO DEFEND that's not good at all. Like seriously that's bad. While having guarding ships may have been gloried speed bumps, they give the rest of the federation to recall all the big fleet ships so they could counterattack. Speed bumps would slow down the Klingons and not enable them to have a free-for-all.

Even before the Klingons showed up we were having pirates prying on our colonies because we were stretched to thine. Having too few assists to cover the federation is a MAJOR issue.

Anyway what I am saying is you're doing a Germany and putting too much stock in quality and not enough in quantity.
 
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As we have noted, its REALLY HARD to go cheaper than we already are when fully half the cost of a starship is just the bare necessities.

The only levers we have to lower price lower tactical capability at the same time.


The Federation is just gonna have to bite the bullet, and put more of its economy into a bigger Starfleet. Defense spending is just too low.
 
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We can't do too much to alter Federation policy. We're just the lunatics that design ships. All we can do is give them the best ships we can and hope the brass and the civilian muckety-mucks don't fuck it up. Which they did here. And while I'm of a personal opinion that the Warp 8 incompatibility (which I'm guilty as charged of voting for myself) may have been a slight misstep on our part, it was only one of several factors. This is not all our fault. by any means.
 
Light/medium covariant shields, 2/3/4x fore and 2x aft torpedo launchers, modern phasers and type 3 impulse drives
*winces*

I pushed real hard to try and get 4x forward torpedo mounts on the Excalibur because I knew paying for a rapid launcher was going to hurt. We didn't get that. Maybe we could have with a chonkier hullform.

Light/Medium Covariant Shields are nice, but on the shields the Excalibur went with mature Heavy Type 1s... for similar total shield power per mass, and cheaper.

Phasers are powered by the warp core. We're not getting the punchy modern ones without Warp 8.

To make it short: You're paying about the same cost as an Excalibur for a less-capable ship. You could go a lot smaller, and only have 2x forward torpedoes... at which point you're building a Newton.

If you wanted a replacement Selachii, what we'd do is stick a single Rapid Launcher, Heavy Covariant, and a Warp 8 Core on the smallest hull we could manage. And you can pretty much see the problem already: this is not a cheap ship. Double the size, switch to light shielding, and for the same price you'll have a somewhat less agile but tougher ship... that also has room for significant amounts of modules that don't actually increase the cost any but give a lot of the utility that the Federation will direct budget our way to acquire.
 
Something we could experiment with perhaps, a vertical saucer section. There are a HANDFUL of STO designs that make use of a vertical oblong for the primary hull.

Could make it possible to make a smaller ship compatible with our warp 8 core.
 
*winces*

I pushed real hard to try and get 4x forward torpedo mounts on the Excalibur because I knew paying for a rapid launcher was going to hurt. We didn't get that. Maybe we could have with a chonkier hullform.

Light/Medium Covariant Shields are nice, but on the shields the Excalibur went with mature Heavy Type 1s... for similar total shield power per mass, and cheaper.

Phasers are powered by the warp core. We're not getting the punchy modern ones without Warp 8.

To make it short: You're paying about the same cost as an Excalibur for a less-capable ship. You could go a lot smaller, and only have 2x forward torpedoes... at which point you're building a Newton.

If you wanted a replacement Selachii, what we'd do is stick a single Rapid Launcher, Heavy Covariant, and a Warp 8 Core on the smallest hull we could manage. And you can pretty much see the problem already: this is not a cheap ship. Double the size, switch to light shielding, and for the same price you'll have a somewhat less agile but tougher ship... that also has room for significant amounts of modules that don't actually increase the cost any but give a lot of the utility that the Federation will direct budget our way to acquire.
You're not wrong about it not being cheap, but given most of our warp seven fleet is being in danger of an unscheduled disassembly incident, we're going to need such ships or something similar as patrol craft and replacement craft while we're trying to pick our teeth up from the galactic bar room floor. Especially given that we are going to need Frigates just as much if not more in the aftermath lest the colonies riot or we have member states break off from the Federation because of a lack of protection.
 
Phasers are powered by the warp core. We're not getting the punchy modern ones without Warp 8.
I agree with most of what you said, but not this bit. Don't we have more issues getting power through our grid than from the core? The cores are more than grunty enough to power all our phasers at once, it's just our grid and energizers can't deal with it all. We could probably power our modern phasers just fine on an old warp 5 or even warp 4 engine.

Edit: Please, correct me if I'm wrong, I spend a lot of time reading and re-reading this Quest but I've still missed some very important things.
 
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Yeah no, the amount of power a ship uses when not at warp is only like at MOST 5% of the power of even a small warpcore. The only reason they are used is for FTL speeds, which need Mind BREAKING amounts of power. The only time this changes is with Replicators, because you CAN dump the entire output into it to make matter.
 
The cores are more than grunty enough to power all our phasers at once, it's just our grid and energizers can't deal with it all.
The Type 2 Mark II becomes available to us for our first Warp 8 design:
As the Bureau gears up for the next major project interesting news comes out of Starfleet Tactical. Extensive experience with the Type-2 phaser and increasing advancements in particle generation systems means the newest systems have been promising improvements for some time now without materialising. The Warp 8 Engine has changed that, with the higher electroplasma temperatures and much of the conduit work involved in bringing the project into reality being cross-applicable to starship power grids. There now exists a power supply capable of feeding Tactical's new toys.
Now, there's a lot of technobabble there, but the way I read it our upgrades to the EPS conduits that allow the Mark II to function are in fact dependent on using a Warp 8 Engine, because older engines don't produce the higher electroplasma temperatures required.
 
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