Starfleet Design Bureau

Then add a small squadron.

Even a token defense force on station at all times changes the calculus for an attacker. They have to commit more ships to every backwater they hit than they would otherwise, and take longer to roll over defenses. Meaning more time to get the proper fleet gathered up for a response.

Even forcing the enemy to bring a single extra ship to a raid means they cant hit as many of our colonies at once.
 
Kind of annoying that solar systems are large enough that even a system defence monitor needs warp capability to be meaningfully more tactically significant than a station. Being able to skip the whole warp assembly would Really save on cost (make the whole thing small enough to fit in an archer's cargo pod for delivery to the intended system).
Hmm, could we possibly use surplus warp 7 reactors and single v3 nacelles for system monitors? That could cut costs down drastically.

Combined with maybe a new defense station project at some point, maybe a small one specifically for fortifying our borders against incursion, where if you need more you can just whack several down?
 
As far as I can tell the cheapest option for a military escort is probably something like a 100kt mono nacalle ship mono thruster that's just basically torpedoes and phasers slapped together (Rapid front torps).

Probably cost 17 for the shields, 5 for the thruster, 12 for the torpedo, 3 for the hull, 6 for the Nacelle, 8 for the phasers.. In the end you can get a ship that's about half as combat capable as an Excalibur for like two thirds the cost and something like no noncombat ability. And which is also slower.

It's just not cost effective. At least a station can skip out on Nacelles and Thrusters and maybe even Warp Core. I say this unironically: Some kind of gold plated 500kt battleship monstrosity would actually be the better option (and also goes well with our Thruster focus). It would even have better noncombat relevance as well, due to far more internal space.
 
Then add a small squadron.

Even a token defense force on station at all times changes the calculus for an attacker. They have to commit more ships to every backwater they hit than they would otherwise, and take longer to roll over defenses. Meaning more time to get the proper fleet gathered up for a response.

Even forcing the enemy to bring a single extra ship to a raid means they cant hit as many of our colonies at once.
You are talking about increasing the size of Starfleet by at least one or two orders of magnitude.
Its literally economically impossible.

A token defence force is just that: a token. It does not change the calculus for a serious attacker. Warships require trained crews, who spend their time training to use them. Hardware is not enough, a shit crew is going to get schooled by a bunch of professional spacers who have lived and breathed war while you were farming wheat.

A colonist who has a fulltime job on the colony world does not have the time, and probably lacks the skills to operate a starship; colonies do not have the surplus capacity to maintain luxuries. Hell, they generally lack the local surplus for essential shit like medical supplies, which is why Starfleet ends up running so many emergency missions.

The delusion that you can park a warship and just jump inside it at need is just that: A delusion.

Nevermind the fact that both Klingons and Romulans are famous, or infamous if you prefer, for stealth systems.
So the most likely result of a parked starship is a Bird of Prey decloaking five seconds before putting torpedoes into it at half a light second range.
 
A smaller ship does benefit from lower crew counts, especially in labs where you need even more highly trained specialists, and shorter build times for the simple reason it can be assembled more quickly.

Sadly, that is... not quite below but outside, the level of abstraction for this quest.

We also dont have options for 'light' nacelles or smaller warp cores at the moment. The TNG era quite clearly saw dozens of different models of nacelle in use, seems like nearly every class had it's own design, but right now every single ship has to use the Type 3. And our deflector dish model and warp core both put minimums on the number of decks a ship can get away with.

I dont think we even have Warp capable shuttlecraft right now.


Without more scalable tech, it really does not make any sense to go smaller than the current Darwin.


Edit: There is no need to get that heated or sling insults.

It would not be orders of magnitude, it would, at most, be a doubling of ships. The federation is still only a few dozen worlds, not hundreds. And you wouldnt need them on every single planet, those with orbiting stardocks, member fleets, or even sufficient quantities of the new SanFran defense satellites could also do the job. Right now we are bleeding because most of our frontier worlds have nothing but hand phasers and shuttle pods.

And an ambush from a decloaking vessel is not an instant loss condition, especially if you have more than one ship on station.


I'm not going to deny there are plenty of issues with the idea, but it's at least worth debating for the post war climate. Can we afford garrisons? Probably not. But the option needs to be debated before getting shelved as impractical.
 
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Looking at the mechanics of a defence satellite it's much more cost efficient by far.

Assuming it's something like a 20kt 'ship' it would probably have a single cost 3 torpedo, cost 0.6 hull, plus an optional 1.5 cost light covariant shields (no crew). 5.1~3.6 Cost, ~1/7 the firepower of an Excalibur, that's actually the only design which is actually more cost effective than tbe Excalibur.
 
The federation is still only a few dozen worlds, not hundreds.
...The Federation has enough worlds that 30 Newtons, 22 Archers, and 22 Cygnuses were kept busy.

The Federation has enough worlds that 150 starships were blatantly unable to be everywhere at once, or even to be everywhere often enough.

The Federation is up to twenty minor species (where "minor" is still "independently Warp-capable"; I doubt they all have colonies, but I expect them to at least average more than one apiece- so that's forty or fifty worlds right there before you even start counting the core members) and is clearly implied to have enough colonies across enough space that its prewar strength of 150 ships was- while it was sufficient- only narrowly sufficient for disaster response and emergency aid across all of them.

My general impression is that the Federation has fifty to eighty worlds that actually matter for starship production (either via non-negligible industry of their own, rare resource extraction, or just having such a huge population that they represent a significant fraction of Starfleet Academy's intake), a bit over two hundred more with significant, self-sustaining population, and four to six hundred more with insignificant population (tiny colonies, first-gen colonies, research stations, twenty dudes in tents getting very excited about this weird lichen, etc.).
 
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I cannot believe that Starfleet cannot manage at least one starfleet ship per developed colony. Not counting outposts and 'colonies' that are just one tiny town or a handful of barely occupied cities.

Also I'm pretty sure that with the number of hulls we know exist and the 800 men figure for the Excalibur, one of our largest hulls, Starfleet cant hit a half million officers and enlisted.

Which, in fairness, Starfleet self selects for the absolute best of the best of the best. Being a volunteer service in a government where noone has to work to survive and mandating every Academy graduate effectively be a polymath.
 
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I cannot believe that Starfleet cannot manage at least one starfleet ship per developed colony.
I guess we're at an impasse, then, because I cannot believe that they can.

Edit: Not to sit there on station (whether fully idle or just on local patrol) most of the time. I do think we could manage one Starfleet hull per properly developed world, like, total; like I said previously, my current general impression is that immediately-prewar we had less than three hundred "properly developed worlds" and a clearly-underfunded Starfleet of 150 ships; doubling that hull count is entirely reasonable. Gluing one of those hulls to each of those worlds and then building enough additional hulls to fulfill normal scientific, patrol, and emergency-aid duties across the other hundreds of worlds plus exploring beyond them is not, but that's a separate argument.

Edit2:
Also I'm pretty sure that with the number of hulls we know exist and the 800 men figure for the Excalibur, one of our largest hulls, Starfleet cant hit a half million officers and enlisted.
Oh, yeah, my wild-assed guess is on the order of 80-90,000 crew aboard ship at any given time out of a quarter-million-ish swearing the oath and wearing the uniform, and probably triple that directly employed by Starfleet but not part of Starfleet (miscellaneous civilian contractors, sponsored researchers, the shipyard workers at Utopia Planitia, the janitors and cooks in San Francisco, the shipwrights and support crew aboard the Pharos stations, etc., etc.) for a grand total of about a million people "on payroll" (for whatever that's worth in a society without payroll).

Edit3:
Hmm, could we possibly use surplus warp 7 reactors and single v3 nacelles for system monitors? That could cut costs down drastically.
I mean, in principle, yes, but you're looking at "worse than a Selachii" and expecting it to stand up to, if not invasion, at least serious incursion. That seems recklessly overoptimistic.
 
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I have some canon evidence on this.

Here in quest, if I'm remembering right each new class tends to get a set of registry numbers. The Selachiis are all NCC-11XX, the Excaliburs are all 17XX, the Keas 13XX. Balloons those unique registry entries fast.

Canon does not do this, at all. With the Constitution class having registry numbers as low as 1017 in on screen appearances (USS Constellation) and multiple listed vessels in the 16XX range.

Unless Starfleet is routinely skipping over numbers, or retiring massive amounts of ships, we must assume that Starfleet has at Least several hundred vessels in service during TOS. Potentially up to the low thousands.

We are admittedly a few years off TOS, and the Enterprise was not a spring chicken when Kirk took her helm. But the numbers... ain't adding up.


Unless of course we see a MASSIVE buildup after the Four Years War. Which is very possible.
 
The ships we've seen slaughtered in droves are the Selachii, i.e. the purely military frigate that's gone obsolete; the Saladin, which is sufficiently ancient that it got reassigned to Tactical from Science because its labs were so insufficient and always had "really, really cheap" as its primary selling point; the two Sagarmathas that got pulled out of boneyards because their decommissioning hadn't actually been completed yet; and the Newtons.

Thing is, the Newtons are basically what you're asking for: small, high-maneuverability, lots of forward firepower, not much extraneous equipment. Their problem is that they just don't have much HP, and their agility can't make up the difference in fleet contexts.

Ehh from my reading of the fight the Selachii did fine against its intended peer, the Bird of Prey which were also diying in droves against heavier ships. The Newton also seemed to do ok against D6's, even if they could have wished for better shields.
 
I have some canon evidence on this. [...] we must assume that Starfleet has at Least several hundred vessels in service during TOS.
We do not, actually. When the QM confirms X as being the case in this quest, then wilfully disregarding it to argue for Y on the basis of canon implications is absurd. Granted, we're not quite at the TOS era, so the QM confirming a 150-starship Starfleet immediately prior to the war doesn't quite explicitly debunk your numbers for the TOS era. But...it's certainly stronger Bayesian evidence of a low-hundreds TOS-era Starfleet in quest than your counting canon's hull numbers is for a high-hundreds-to-very-low-thousands range.

Note that this is 150 ships in a larger Federation, with (substantially) more population from (several) more species and (modestly?) more industry across (substantially) more space than canon's of the same time period.
Unless of course we see a MASSIVE buildup after the Four Years War. Which is very possible.
Oh, very possible indeed, but I don't think the nearly-an-order-of-magnitude degree you're talking about is achievable. I'm hoping to double our hull count, I think it's an ambitious but broadly plausible goal, but I don't expect to actually get that much, or even nearly that much.

If we manage to break 200 ships in Starfleet after retiring any surviving Cygnus, Selachii, Saladin, and Sagarmatha- even if just briefly before retiring the surviving Newtons over the course of the 2270s- then we'll be so far ahead of my actual expectations I'll be ecstatic. But then, I am generally a pessimist, so :p we'll see.
 
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The Federation is 20 full members right now, those members likely have at least ten major colonies and dozens of more minor ones.
Very debatable. We almost never SEE well developed colonies. It's always tiny towns in the middle of nowhere, probably because an established city doesnt need help from Starfleet as often.

Still, we only have about 8 listed colonies from EARTH in alpha canon, not counting the Mars and Moon colonies. Vulcan in second place has three. Best hard number I can find (Outside Discovery) is 150 'member worlds' and a few thousand outposts by 2370.


Edit:I am very well aware that Sayle is doing things different to canon, that's kinda the point. But I do believe the above supports my point. Starfleet should be able to easily maintain more ships than it has planets, but those ships have lots of things that need doing. Surveys, deliveries, contact, disaster relief, and if we go by modern standards, a sizable portion of the fleet laid up in long term maintenance at any given time.
 
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Very debatable. We almost never SEE well developed colonies. It's always tiny towns in the middle of nowhere, probably because an established city probably doesnt need help from Starfleet as often.

Still, we only have about 8 listed colonies from EARTH in alpha canon, not counting the Mars and Moon colonies. Vulcan in second place has three. Best hard number I can find (Outside Discovery) is 150 'member worlds' and a few thousand outposts by 2370.
You just answered your own problem. A developed colony (hundred million plus population, able to produce much of what it needs to consume) isn't one that's really gonna need to depend on Starfleet assistance for the most part outside of shit propagating inwards from the outer bounds of the Federation.
It's also a pain in the ass to simulate before CGI - there's a reason TNG kept reusing the same city mattes, and why TOS had none of that (a budget that even an amateur horror movie maker would pale at).

That's some Star Destroyer dot Net thinking right there.
Captain Kirk: "We're on a thousand planets and spreading out. We cross fantastic distances. And everything's alive, Cochrane; life everywhere. We estimate that there are millions of planets with intellgient life. We haven't begun to map them. Interested?" - TOS The Companion

That lines up pretty nicely with my statement (which assuming dozens = 36 average, gives 720 minor colonies, 200 major colonies and the 20 members) for a total of 940 planets*.

Would the Federation as of TNG, more than a hundred years of peace and development later, really only consists 150 developed worlds and perhaps a thousand more minor colonies?

*And this assumes he's talking about the Federation as a whole, rather than earth and her colonies, given he's talking to a man who disappeared before the Federation was founded.
 
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I have some canon evidence on this.

Here in quest, if I'm remembering right each new class tends to get a set of registry numbers. The Selachiis are all NCC-11XX, the Excaliburs are all 17XX, the Keas 13XX. Balloons those unique registry entries fast.

Canon does not do this, at all. With the Constitution class having registry numbers as low as 1017 in on screen appearances (USS Constellation) and multiple listed vessels in the 16XX range.

Unless Starfleet is routinely skipping over numbers, or retiring massive amounts of ships, we must assume that Starfleet has at Least several hundred vessels in service during TOS. Potentially up to the low thousands.

The registry numbers have always been semi-random and there exists no canon or even fan explanation that explains them while matching available evidence. People were throwing theories around in the 1970s and are no closer to a solution.
 
Fair enough, on both counts. I'll concede the point.

I will still however ask to start seeing bigger flights of new ships for future projects. I know ships have gotten a lot bigger, but we really should still be able to build more of them nowadays than we could in the United Earth days.
 
I'm not going to deny there are plenty of issues with the idea, but it's at least worth debating for the post war climate

If for some reason we did feel comfortable parking Mirandas down with a small starfleet garrison everywhere there's nothing stopping an admiral from pulling them together with some other ships to counter a raiding party. FTL coms exist in setting and another 20-60 ships wouldn't hurt when you needed to shuffle deployments. I personally would rather we just make 20-60 patrol ships that can be moved around freely. But if a spread basing strategy is the political argument that will get those ships built vs no budget increases I suspect the military minded admirals wouldn't complain too loudly.

Do all members actually have a ton of major worlds though? I was under the impression there were members that just had advanced technology, a well developed planet or two, and a bunch of trade. Some civs wouldn't have the territory rush landgrab mentality and the Federation would love having them as members. As an example the Betazoids didn't have any colonies in the 24th century. I can imagine a meticulous species wanting to fully develop worlds before expanding. With federation membership they also might not feel any pressure to paint the map since they could join other colonization initiatives or immigrate to other established member planets.
 
Would QRF Fleetbases work better?
Make a big very hard to kill starbase and have a 12-24 ships stationed at it
So ranked order of primacy being Tactical->Logisitics (thing's not much of a threat if it can't be supplied with munitions and parts for both itself and its attendant fleet after all...)->Civilian/Trade. Multiple RFLs, lots of ship scale Type 2 Phasers and as many MegaPhasers as can be feasibly stuck on there, Heavy Covariant Shields, etc.
 
A permanent 'Sector Defence Force' drawn from the populations of a given sector and flying around 2-6 ships like the Soyuz-class (basically a combat oriented Miranda) would be able to defend from most non war level incursions, and during a war owing to their permanent nature it wouldn't be too hard to fold them in under the Starfleet aegis.
 
Given at most of the costs of a starship are the fixed costs, with the size for adding modules being fairly minor by comparison, making purely dedicated combat vessels is incredibly wasteful. Good frontier patrol ships are also good surveying ships, as both tasks involve a lot of traveling around in the periphery, while good internal patrol ships are also good light cargo ships. With the benefits of being able to flexibly shift deployments around, combining surveying and light cargo capacity onto a patrol ship becomes fairly obvious
 
Given at most of the costs of a starship are the fixed costs, with the size for adding modules being fairly minor by comparison, making purely dedicated combat vessels is incredibly wasteful.
And the flip side of this is that making starships that can't fight disproportionately hits our ability to defend ourselves; the marginal cost to turn a "civvie" starship into something that can fight is much smaller than the cost of building a pure combatant powerful enough to cover the hole a noncombat vessel leaves in our lines.
 
You know… given our rather extreme maneuvering focus, phaser lances would be amazing for us, a fixed spinal gun on something with extreme maneuverability and very heavy shields would make an amazing low logistical burden response ship
 
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