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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Fanhunter696 said:
The old explanation worked extremely well for most of the fans, the elves inflicted what is literally the worst insult in a culture that has no word for forgiveness or mercy, to the ambassador of their whole race (who was IIRC the king´s relative by the way) when he was sent to Ulathan to ask for explanations, and then for reparations when the explanations were denied.

So, in my opinion, it made total sense the reaction from the Dwarfs...
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Except that it's one of the worst crimes that could be committed against a Dwarf because of what Caledor did and the resulting events. It was certainly a massive offense but nothing that would cause centuries of pointless bloodshed, if Malikith wasn't pulling more and more strings all that would have happened is that the Karaz Ankor and Ulthuan would just sever all ties with one another and any conflict would be small border skirmishes between those were actually upset.

Also I think you are heavily mixing modern day Dwarves with pre War of Vengeance Dwarves. They were extremely different back in those days. They actually cared about their dignity and those they allied themselves with, they actually try to make the world around them a better place. They had hope and saw a bright future ahead of them.

The Dwarves of modern Warhammer are prideful to the point of inhuman viciousness, whole families would be killed because hundreds of years ago one of your ancestors once insulted a Dwarf despite them being dead for years. They don't care anymore all that matters to them is vengeance and their pride, they would throw everything away for the slightest possibility to accomplish it.
Fanhunter696 said:
If you are talking about the Elven Villages that the Dwarfs attacked before the War of the Beard as a response of Malekith´s attack, then no...

I included it under the umbrella of "one of the many retcons and ass-pulls" because those were one of the many things that were NEVER mentioned before in Canon and as far as I know it has barely been mentioned afterward, as a way to try to justify in some measure Caledor´s reaction with the Dwarf Ambassador.
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I thought you were talking about the war in general there, not what came before, sorry for the confusion.
Fanhunter696 said:
Not really, the most common and accepted theory about Malekith ´s objective was simply to gain some breathing air and prevent that the Elf and Dwarf alliance sent a combined army to wipe him out, so he tried to cool down Dwarf and Elf alliance, or maybe even broke their alliance altogether so he would only have to fight against the High Elves...

The one factor that Malekith did not count was Caledor, that escalated a diplomatic incident to a full out extermination war, Malekith may have thrown the first stone (so to be fair he may have had a 5% responsibility here) but it was only Caledor´s fault that Malekith´s Gambit worked beyond the wildest dreams of anyone involved.
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???
  • -2724: Caledor the Conqueror defeats Malekith (now known as the Witch King) at the Battle of Maledor.
  • -2723: The Sundering. Malekith disrupts the Vortex, plunging northern Ulthuan beneath the waves. Contact is lost with the Old World colonies.
  • -2722: Malekith and his followers arrive on the western shores of the Sea of Malice. Naggaroth is founded.
  • -1997: The War of the Beard begins, pitting High Elf against Dwarf, to the ruination of both.
  • -1600: The War of the Beard ends, with the death of Caledor II and the loss of the Phoenix Crown to the Dwarfs. The Dwarfs retreat into Karaz-a-Karak and refuse to fight any further, claiming victory. Nagash is overthrown by the Army of the Seven Kings. Khemri is besieged and then sacked. Arkhan is killed covering his master's retreat. Nagash flees north to plot his revenge. His wanderings take him to Cripple Peak, a mountain by the shores of the Sour Sea. Cripple Peak contains a massive chunk of glittering warpstone, the largest in the world. Nagash begins to experiment with warpstone but so corrosive is the influence of this huge chunk of pure Chaos that Nagash is forced to use ever more potent necromantic magics to hold onto his unlife.
  • -1599: The invasion fleet of the Dark Elves lands on the northern shores of Ulthuan. Anlec is rebuilt, but the Dark Elves find themselves unable to cross the Annulii Mountains.
I'm sorry but your timeline doesn't work.

The High Elves thought Malekith and all of his followers were either dead or to weak in order to threaten them for centuries. Something his spies on Ulthuan did everything to enforce. Why the heck would he be at all worried about some hypothetical alliance coming down to attack him. Besides that he had designs to return the Ulthuan and retake his 'rightful' place as the Pheonix King since the moment he got his butt handed to him by Caledor the Conqueror. Malekith had all the tools at his disposal to set up a war between the two allies, both with his spies and agents in the Elves and his extensive knowledge of the Dwarves. This entire thing started because Malekith wanted it to and when it ended he was ready to pounce on them instantly, 5% really.
Fanhunter696 said:
To be fair with old Snorri, he was so pissed off with both Malekith and himself that he resurrected out of pure spite...
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To be fair to all the Dawi who lost their lives, 'sorry it was a mistake' isn't an excuse.
 
UwU said:
I'm sorry but your timeline doesn't work.

The High Elves thought Malekith and all of his followers were either dead or to weak in order to threaten them for centuries. Something his spies on Ulthuan did everything to enforce. Why the heck would he be at all worried about some hypothetical alliance coming down to attack him. Besides that he had designs to return the Ulthuan and retake his 'rightful' place as the Pheonix King since the moment he got his butt handed to him by Caledor the Conqueror. Malekith had all the tools at his disposal to set up a war between the two allies, both with his spies and agents in the Elves and his extensive knowledge of the Dwarves. This entire thing started because Malekith wanted it to and when it ended he was ready to pounce on them instantly, 5% really.
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I was giving you the the most accepted theory, it is not mine...

But it seems pretty easy to understand to me, as you said Malekith had centuries to expand his powerbase in Naggaroth but he was still too weak to directly attack Ulthuan, plus even he became strong enough to do it, he would still have to deal with the Dwarfs, because if the Elves decided to ask the Dwarfs for help a combined army would have sent them to oblivion...

So since he did not have much room to manouver if the alliance remained strong, he started to attack the Dwarf´s Caravans to weaken the alliance hoping that Caledor would screw thing up enough to end the alliance alltogether, but then Caledor screw things so badly that the gambit worked better than his wildes´t dreams and the War of the Beard happened.

It´s simply a way of applying Occams´s Razor here, it is simply much more probable that Malekith´s objective was to waken the alliance, and then Caledor did something that NO ONE, not even the best schemer, could have predicted and Malekith simply rolled with it, that Malekith predicted that a diplomatic incident that been resolved with a simple 100 word explanation would turn into a war of total extermination between the greatest allies in the history of the world (up to that point)

And about the attack on Ulthuan just after the War of the Beard, the war lasted for centuries and he had spys in Ulthuan, so he would know when the war ended. Plus the "let your enemies kill among themselves, and when the finish kill the survivors" it is extremely simple tactic but it has been proven extremely effective through history.
 
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RIGHT! On other notes, I wonder if the Secret of Light (Rune) will culminate in the Giftgiver developing some sort of Rune that best represents / encapsulates the concept of Hysh, instead of just being a simple rune that glows in the dark.
 
Given Hysh is the best FUCK DAEMONS wind in the Fluff, that would be very nice for us.

A bit specialized, but. Fuck Daemons. And Fuck Chaos.

Also, it means legitimate laser beams.
 
Not sure, I know it can't in TWW. High and Life Magic can, as can Necromancy(but fuck that).

Anyways, need to run some balance passes on the Griffons, got a crude unit of them up but they literally went through a entire unit of Halberd Chosen in testing with relatively meh damage taken, so need to tune them way down. Should be strong, but not "Can rip one of the strongest, possibly THE strongest, anti-large infantry to bloody scrap" strong.

Plus side, there's reports in the modding community that they managed to hook the Greenskin Scrap System to other things, so once a mod with that it out properly I can talk to the author and hopefully do some friendly code borrowing hooked to Oathgold. Fluff it as Snorri buying Rune bits to slap gubbins on this or that unit's armor or weapons. Doesn't fluff too well with other Runelords, but for Snorri? Very IC as a Army Thing He Do.
 
ArchAIngel said:
Not sure, I know it can't in TWW. High and Life Magic can, as can Necromancy(but fuck that).

Anyways, need to run some balance passes on the Griffons, got a crude unit of them up but they literally went through a entire unit of Halberd Chosen in testing with relatively meh damage taken, so need to tune them way down. Should be strong, but not "Can rip one of the strongest, possibly THE strongest, anti-large infantry to bloody scrap" strong.

Plus side, there's reports in the modding community that they managed to hook the Greenskin Scrap System to other things, so once a mod with that it out properly I can talk to the author and hopefully do some friendly code borrowing hooked to Oathgold. Fluff it as Snorri buying Rune bits to slap gubbins on this or that unit's armor or weapons. Doesn't fluff too well with other Runelords, but for Snorri? Very IC as a Army Thing He Do.
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Hopefully not too down, considering they've been noted as being bigger, stronger, and more vicious than regular Griffons, especially because they eat Greedy Troll parts which make them grow even stronger. Also standing toe to toe with Dragon Ogres during the siege.
 
Tinkerer said:
Hopefully not too down, considering they've been noted as being bigger, stronger, and more vicious than regular Griffons, especially because they eat Greedy Troll parts which make them grow even stronger. Also standing toe to toe with Dragon Ogres during the siege.
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Well yes, they're powerful and limited in number, but they shouldn't be able to bitch-slap high-level anti-large units. Otherwise it just gets ridiculous. Hitting the point of "Strong, but not broken bullshit" is kind of crucial to this. Using Drogres as a standard for "Can beat up" is a good idea, though. Think I'll set them as something they should come out against bloodied but unbowed.

Might try to see if I can hijack Henri Le Massif's code for a Legendary Hero for the King of the Skies, but that's for a Version Two if at all.
 
Tinkerer said:
Hopefully not too down, considering they've been noted as being bigger, stronger, and more vicious than regular Griffons, especially because they eat Greedy Troll parts which make them grow even stronger. Also standing toe to toe with Dragon Ogres during the siege.
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Hold on, is that in general or were there exceptions for the more powerful Griffons when they were fighting the Dragon Ogres?
 
Red Bovine said:
Hold on, is that in general or were there exceptions for the more powerful Griffons when they were fighting the Dragon Ogres?
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I didnt say anything about that part tbh. But its a good bet to assume that the adults that survived the siege were the most deadly and powerful of their kind. Jury's out on their ability to fight dragon ogres or shaggoths one on one aside from the KoTS. Though He who Remembers and He who Thinks are definitely more a question of the latter than the former that's for sure.
 
ArchAIngel said:
Not sure, I know it can't in TWW. High and Life Magic can, as can Necromancy(but fuck that).

Anyways, need to run some balance passes on the Griffons, got a crude unit of them up but they literally went through a entire unit of Halberd Chosen in testing with relatively meh damage taken, so need to tune them way down. Should be strong, but not "Can rip one of the strongest, possibly THE strongest, anti-large infantry to bloody scrap" strong.

Plus side, there's reports in the modding community that they managed to hook the Greenskin Scrap System to other things, so once a mod with that it out properly I can talk to the author and hopefully do some friendly code borrowing hooked to Oathgold. Fluff it as Snorri buying Rune bits to slap gubbins on this or that unit's armor or weapons. Doesn't fluff too well with other Runelords, but for Snorri? Very IC as a Army Thing He Do.
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You're doing some mods to add stuff from the quest to TWW? Nice.
 
TheDuke said:
You're doing some mods to add stuff from the quest to TWW? Nice.
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Trying to, it's a slow process, not helped by running my own quest and modding being haaaard. And also the DLC sorta reset all my progress. Because it basically redoes all the pointers. And I had to reset them all. Which is a paaaaiiiinnn.
 
@soulcake, would you be open to these write-ins?

[ ] [Difficult] Write In, A Thoughful Place:
Over the decades, you've come to realize there's room for improvement in your workshop - particularly in the area of studying the interactions between your vast catalogue of runes. You envision a new laboratory, enhanced with a suite of runes designed to highlight such interactions, speeding study greatly.

And/Or,

[ ] [Difficult] Write In, The Runelord's Banner. Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Speaking with the Brotherhood of Dron has brought your discomfort with the somewhat...mystical process of developing your purification rune to the fore. Dreams are all well and good, but you're a Rhunrikki, dammit! Your stock in trade is cold, hard science! Perhaps it's time to make a banner to remind yourself of your craft's traditions. Now where was that Manticore liver...
- [ ] Choose: Rune of Thungni, Rune of Insight, Rune of Understanding
- [ ] Theme: The endless search for greater knowledge, personified by Thungni's dive into the depths to bring the Runes back to the Dawi.

The goal with both of these is the same, although the second one might have any number of possible effects, and is probably worth doing even if you nix the primary goal.
Basically, I think the opportunity cost of testing combos is so high that we're almost never going to use it. These actions, particularly the first one, are in hopes of streamlining research enough to generate one free combo test action a turn. That way, there could be lot of fun debate on which combo to test, rather than whether to take a test action at all.
 
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BelligerentGnu said:
The goal with both of these is the same, although the second one might have any number of possible effects, and is probably worth doing even if you nix the primary goal.
Basically, I think the opportunity cost of testing combos is so high that we're almost never going to use it. These actions, particularly the first one, are in hopes of streamlining research enough to generate one free combo test action a turn. That way, there could be lota of dun debate on which combo to test, rather than whether to take a test action at all.
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Hmmm... while I like the concept of improving our workshop, I think the effects would be more narrative than mechanical. The action economy in this quest is pretty tight, and, I think, for good reason. Every additional action we get starts with at least a minimum threshold of actions spent, so creating a craft that simply gives a free action, albeit a very restrictive action, isn't something that I think is feasible or something that I think we should strive for.

If we are going for help in research, possibly expanding Snorri's workshop with something to assist in collaborative research like what he has done with Yorri and what he might do with the Brotherhood of Dron would be interesting to me. A place set aside to house visiting Masters and Runelords and collaborate with them on bigger projects. This might especially be useful given the additional Runelords Kraka Drakk might begin housing.
 
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BelligerentGnu said:
@soulcake, would you be open to these write-ins?

[ ] [Difficult] Write In, A Thoughful Place:
Over the decades, you've come to realize there's room for improvement in your workshop - particularly in the area of studying the interactions between your vast catalogue of runes. You envision a new laboratory, enhanced with a suite of runes designed to highlight such interactions, speeding study greatly.

And/Or,

[ ] [Difficult] Write In, The Runelord's Banner. Pt. 1: [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you. Speaking with the Brotherhood of Dron has brought your discomfort with the somewhat...mystical process of developing your purification rune to the fore. Dreams are all well and good, but you're a Rhunrikki, dammit! Your stock in trade is cold, hard science! Perhaps it's time to make a banner to remind yourself of your craft's traditions. Now where was that Manticore liver...
- [ ] Choose: Rune of Thungni, Rune of Insight, Rune of Understanding
- [ ] Theme: The endless search for greater knowledge, personified by Thungni's dive into the depths to bring the Runes back to the Dawi.

The goal with both of these is the same, although the second one might have any number of possible effects, and is probably worth doing even if you nix the primary goal.
Basically, I think the opportunity cost of testing combos is so high that we're almost never going to use it. These actions, particularly the first one, are in hopes of streamlining research enough to generate one free combo test action a turn. That way, there could be lota of dun debate on which combo to test, rather than whether to take a test action at all.
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By streamlining do you mean for the combo testing or for in general? If it's in general wouldn't streamlining research be the equivalent of getting more actions depending on how it's handled? If so not sure if the QM is willing to go for that since not only are QMs naturally wary of things that give more actions since it can and has gotten out of hands in quests but Soulcake seems wary about that exact thing.

That said do agree that we should probably find a way to streamline things like combo testing if Soulcake is willing to consider it. One of the flaws with combo testing as is is as mentioned the opportunity cost of testing is pretty high when you consider the fact that many players would want to make certain artifacts as good as possible and due to combos being noted to make an artifact even more potent you may get into a situation where a number of players are going to want to make all the gear for certain people or even epic golems. Which doesn't sound so bad until you take into account that each person can have 4-5 artifact slot and if people insist on a combo for every single equipment slot.

Get the feeling that a lot of people are going to be turned off by the idea of potentially using up 5-10 turns testing combos, the number comes from the fact that people may want to invest 3-4 actions per turn to try to get a combo and if no combo shows up they may insist on using more turns until they get them if the first time doesn't work out, especially when you take into account that's just VIP or super Gronti. The opportunity costs comes from the fact that combo testing only lets us figure out combos which while not an issue for most still means that we would be losing opportunities for other projects and research. Examples being long term projects that people have been talking about like new gronti designs, research trees including the rune of metal and new projects like a healing artifact for a potential temple of healing over the healing vents which may include researching the waters as well.

So agree with the idea of maybe having it so that we can get a free rune test every turn where we can get one single combo tested. Another idea is making is so that one single combo testing action lets us test multiple combos, maybe even 3 for one action. And to prevent lengthening the updates too much maybe just have it so that the runes tested just give us something like a yes or no answer without going into much more detail if Soulcake goes with the free combo test each turn idea.
 
cheesyme said:
Worth noting, I'm not sure the latter 2 exist. I've never seen them before and checking the rune magic wiki page doesn't have either of them
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I'm operating on the understanding that 'we have pretty much all the simple runes, including many not listed.' If we don't have these runes, I'm sure soulcake will let us know.

Red Bovine said:
By streamlining do you mean for the combo testing or for in general?
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Just testing, research would be OP. Although, maybe one day a super-expensive project to make Master Rune research s little easier could be in the cards? Again, up to soulcake.

Edit: Sorry soulcake, SV sutocorrected. Not trying to spam your feed.
 
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I think those votes are dangerous because it creates the precedent that we can alter the action economy with items and it won't be long before people start pushing that to try and get even more.
However I do also agree that the Combo Testing action should probably be rebalanced, but I think its better to just do that through the mechanics. Changing the action so that it can test multiple combos at once, or giving free procs of it after understanding a master rune or something like that.
 
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