RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Garlak]

Spoiler

I was actually thinking a twin for Trollslayer. Swap Conduction for Induction. It would, instead of expelling heat/energy after contact, draw in heat/energy just before contact, freezing the area of impact and thus make it extremely brittle so that when the weapon hits the target shatters like glass.

A really good combo for a warhammer I think.

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I've always felt like something which drew on themes and ideas of "the cold, slicing wind" is something that would be perfectly suited for an axe rather than a hammer. That plus the fact that the "Rune of Cleaving" is usually the main rune I add to Currents, and cleaving sounds more fitting for an axe.

But your idea is a bit different from "cold, biting wind" though... because it's about "freezing and shattering" which, yes, a hammer would feel quite fitting for, yes.

Hrm. Wind or Freezing Cold? Which to make the central theme... There's some interrelation and interconnection yes. But it's the difference between a "sharp freezing/cutting wind" (which looks like something that "cutting" would be appropriate for) and a "freeze and shatter" effect (for which a hammer would fit)...

 

[cheesyme]

Hrm. Wind or Freezing Cold? Which to make the central theme... There's some interrelation and interconnection yes. But it's the difference between a "sharp freezing/cutting wind" (which looks like something that "cutting" would be appropriate for) and a "freeze and shatter" effect (for which a hammer would fit)...

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probably better to go with wind for how it'd pair with the defensive effects of the cloak.

 

[Abhishekam]

Spoiler

That is correct. Abhishek M is talking about a hypothetical alternate armor that had Frost and Impact and actually made a combo.

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Spoiler

Yeah but we specified the material for the Armors too when we did the first part of the action. If we are changing the material for one hopefully we could change the runeset too. But that would be too much generosity on soulcakes part.

In any case still doesnt mean the stuff cant complement each other eveb if all the combos dont stack.

 

[BungieONI]

Spoiler

Yeah but we specified the material for the Armors too when we did the first part of the action. If we are changing the material for one hopefully we could change the runeset too. But that would be too much generosity on soulcakes part.

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Spoiler

Yeah it would be because unfortunately the section in the update where we talk to Otrek and Gloin specifies what Runes we were going to put on the armors so we're out of luck in that respect. It's also a mechanical headache because it sets up precedent for if we fail to make a combo, pick a new set of runes in an attempt to combo, and that's the purpose of the Combo Tester project.

 

[Abhishekam]

Spoiler

Yeah it would be because unfortunately the section in the update where we talk to Otrek and Gloin specifies what Runes we were going to put on the armors so we're out of luck in that respect.

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Spoiler

Doesnt that vote also specify both would be made from Adamant and not just one. Let alone one form dragon bone?

Looking back to turn 16 results yeah it does.

 

[Chimeraguard]

Spoiler

Doesnt that vote also specify both would be made from Adamant and not just one. Let alone one form dragon bone?

Looking back yeah it does.

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Spoiler

That bit at least wasn't mentioned IC, probably because we weren't aware that a single armor suit would take three bars of Adamant to make and soulcake decided to have a bit of pity on us.

 

[UlseDovThur]

I just noticed. The Torque the Ancestors made for the King of the Skies. It's made of Adamant. Not the next step of Gromril. The "Brilliant White". Wonder why. Is it because even they haven't figured it out yet or maybe because it's difficult to make even for them?

 

[BungieONI]

Doesnt that vote also specify both would be made from Adamant and not just one. Let alone one form dragon bone?

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It did, but the important thing is that we are materially free but not free with runes. Here's what I mean:

Your discussion with King Otrek and Prince Gloin goes well. The armour you'll be making them will consist of similar Runic arrays meant to prevent more esoteric damage. In Otrek's case the variant of the Rune of Sanctuary you'll be using will be able to impart some lesser protection to his Huskarls, which will be useful during the times he'll no doubt be leading a charge during battle. Gloin's armour meanwhile is more individually directed, the Rune of Valaya keeping him safe and wardred from foul magic. Given that he acts more individually compared to his father, you felt it prudent to make sure he didn't get himself killed.

With that dealt with, you bid both a good day and leave to see your brother off.

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Spoiler

That bit at least wasn't mentioned IC, probably because we weren't aware that a single armor suit would take three bars of Adamant to make and soulcake decided to have a bit of pity on us.

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Pretty much this. We didn't know going in how expensive in bars armor would be for Adamant, so it was a screw up on my part to include Adamant in the choosing, even if it was a logical deduction of "Hey we can pick runes, we also have materials, good stuff is made with good materials > specify materials too".

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Spoiler

Doesnt that vote also specify both would be made from Adamant and not just one. Let alone one form dragon bone?

Looking back to turn 16 results yeah it does.

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Spoiler: Spoiler

Only the copy pasted plan he quoted at the top. The actual discussion of the armor, the narrative/fluff, makes no mention of Adamant. But yes, it was almost certainly soulcake throwing us a bone/not letting Snorri jump into something he wasn't currently capable of doing.

 

[TheDuke]

I just noticed. The Torque the Ancestors made for the King of the Skies. It's made of Adamant. Not the next step of Gromril. The "Brilliant White". Wonder why. Is it because even they haven't figured it out yet or maybe because it's difficult to make even for them?

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Laihtero's no joke. If even half of the myths around the stuff are true then working with and making it's a monumental task. Some theories state it is incompatible with enchantments of any form, and is made from a portion of a God of Law's essence. Others state that it takes a dwarf's entire lifetime to process so much of an ingot of it.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

Spoiler: Spoiler

Skarrenraz Ankor:
Institutions:

Places:

Individuals:
King of the Sky, King of Griffons, Lord of Air: Standing 1, favours 0
He who Thinks, Scion of the Sky: Standing 1, Favours 0
He who Remembers, Scion of the Sky: Standing 1, Favours 0
Ebonbeak, Princess Consort of He who Thinks: Standing 3, Favours 0


Keep in mind these are not Dwarves, and soulcake has explicitly said that favor rankings are not identical across factions or even institutions

 

[TheDuke]

Spoiler: Spoiler

Skarrenraz Ankor:
Institutions:

Places:

Individuals:
King of the Sky, King of Griffons, Lord of Air: Standing 1, favours 0
He who Thinks, Scion of the Sky: Standing 1, Favours 0
He who Remembers, Scion of the Sky: Standing 1, Favours 0
Ebonbeak, Princess Consort of He who Thinks: Standing 3, Favours 0


Keep in mind these are not Dwarves, and soulcake has explicitly said that favor rankings are not identical across factions or even institutions

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Should be fun to make Huginn and Muninn a matching armour set, some day. Wonder what kind of rune combo we could put on them?

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

I just noticed. The Torque the Ancestors made for the King of the Skies. It's made of Adamant. Not the next step of Gromril. The "Brilliant White". Wonder why. Is it because even they haven't figured it out yet or maybe because it's difficult to make even for them?

Click to shrink...

Hell, for all we know they could have but they didn't want to basically hand over a cheat sheet to the Runesmiths of the North.

 

[UlseDovThur]

Hmm. If Pure Gromril is pure phyisically, cleansing it of various kinds of slag and such, and Adamant is pure physically and spiritually, removing foreign magic and corruption, what is the next step? How do you make something that is already physically and spiritually pure even more pure?

What about Purity of Form? How the material is structured. Like how the element Carbon can be structured into something as weak and brittle as graphite and something as strong and flexable as carbon-nanotubes.

We know we can make it. When we made the Adamant forge there was a moment when the material shined the "Brilliant White" before settling back down to the truest silver of Adamant.

 

[BungieONI]

Hmm. If Pure Gromril is pure phyisically, cleansing it of various kinds of slag and such, and Adamant is pure physically and spiritually, removing foreign magic and corruption, what is the next step? How do you make something that is already physically and spiritually pure even more pure?

What about Purity of Form? How the material is structured. Like how the element Carbon can be structured into something as weak and brittle as graphite and something as strong and flexable as carbon-nanotubes.

We know we can make it. When we made the Adamant forge there was a moment when the material shined the "Brilliant White" before settling back down to the truest silver of Adamant.

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I don't think it has to do with Purity of Form, that sounds like the physical impurity. Pure Gromril has physical purity. Adamant has physical and spiritual purity. It is basically the best Metal Snorri has ever handled. No metal known can surpass it.

We can assume that White Gromril is physically manifest as metal-like (I would hesitate to assume it will actually be a metal) but to surpass both physical and spiritual purity is I think a case of going beyond, to a place extremely close to the idea of Perfection itself.

 

[EVA-Saiyajin]

I don't think it has to do with Purity of Form, that sounds like the physical impurity. Pure Gromril has physical purity. Adamant has physical and spiritual purity. It is basically the best Metal Snorri has ever handled. No metal known can surpass it.

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It's odd how this simple, factual statement reignited my pride at our achievement of creating Adamant.

 

[UlseDovThur]

I don't think it has to do with Purity of Form, that sounds like the physical impurity. Pure Gromril has physical purity. Adamant has physical and spiritual purity. It is basically the best Metal Snorri has ever handled. No metal known can surpass it.

We can assume that White Gromril is physically manifest as metal like (I would hesitate to assume it will actually be a metal) but to surpass both physical and spiritual purity is I think a case of going beyond, to a place extremely close to the idea of Perfection itself.

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Gonna have to disagree. Graphite, diamond, and carbon nanotubes are all pure forms of carbon. It is how the carbon itself is structured however that gives the materials their various physical properties.

Pure Gromril, from what I can tell, is physically pure in the sense that it is free from any other element/material not necessarily because it's atomic structure is ordered and structured like that of carbon nanotubes who's atoms have been formed into a structured and consistent pattern. In other words while Pure Gromril is free of contaminants it is still simply an unordered lump of the material.

If we can structure the Gromrils/Adamants atoms into a fixed and consistent pattern that might be the breakthrough we need. That might also be what's happening in the Adamant forge for a brief moment. When it reaches a certain temperature it's atoms begin to structure and order themselves much like when carbon is under sufficient heat and pressure it forms into diamond......

...... What if that's it? What if your right and White Gromril isn't a metal at all? But rather it's a Crystal? A form of Crystalized Gromril. That would be very interesting.

 

[Binge-Reader]

Hell, for all we know they could have but they didn't want to basically hand over a cheat sheet to the Runesmiths of the North.

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Issue is this was for the Sky King and cheaping out of a trade gift with a totally above board monarch seems very very un dwarf. It's a deal that will be foundational to the dwarfs foreign policy FOREVER cause it was done by the Ancestors themselves. So if it was made from adamant it's either the best material even the Ancestors have or it's built from something better but is disguised as something lesser which sounds un dwarf as well.

 

[BungieONI]

Gonna have to disagree. Graphite, diamond, and carbon nanotubes are all pure forms of carbon. It is how the carbon itself is structured however that gives the materials their various physical properties.

Pure Gromril, from what I can tell, is physically pure in the sense that it is free from any other element/material not necessarily because it's atomic structure is ordered and structured like that of carbon nanotubes who's atoms have been formed into a structured and consistent pattern. In other words while Pure Gromril is free of contaminants it is still simply an unordered lump of the material.

If we can structure the Gromrils/Adamants atoms into a fixed and consistent pattern that might be the breakthrough we need. That might also be what's happening in the Adamant forge for a brief moment. When it reaches a certain temperature it's atoms begin to structure and order themselves much like when carbon is under sufficient heat and pressure it forms into diamond......

...... What if that's it? What if your right and White Gromril isn't a metal at all? But rather it's a Crystal? A form of Crystalized Gromril. That would be very interesting.

Click to shrink...

Here's the thing though. Atomic misalignment is caused in large part by impurities in metals, and metals form lattice structures in order to be classed as metals (and is part of why they are conductive). Pure Gromril by the fact of it being a metal contains an ordered structure, and also we're dealing with dwarves and the kind of purity they require from Pure Gromril requires the kind of refinement that creates extremely ordered lattice structures as a side effect. An unordered lump of material would be something like Gromril Ore, not a metal at all.

All of this falls entirely under the banner of the Physical Stuff. We already deal with all of this when we make Gromril into Pure Gromril, this is the point of it. Pure Gromril physically cannot be purer and to push it further gets you Adamant.

Adamant is even better than Pure Gromril because it surpasses the base material realm and transitions to being purified in terms of the Warp and Magic and the immaterial realm. It is still a Metal though.

To go beyond that I think requires using the idea of purity as a basis that we forged, but then moving beyond purity. Like the Rune Metal tree has been a constant search for more refined, more perfect gromril and the methods to achieve that refinement. White Gromril/True Gromril would basically have to be a T5 because Adamant is a T4 and True Gromril is better than it and it is reasonable to assume will be even harder to make than Adamant, thus making it even rarer. At the intersection of being better and being rarer, you get T5.

Given the close connection with Runes the idea of Perfection I think is important to sort of imprint upon the now pure material, pure enough to act as a proper foundation, to push it even further towards the ideas that the Rune Metal tree is striving for.

 

[ArchAIngel]

What if that's part of why we need Voidstone, which seems to be associated with "Nothing" for refining Adamantine?

After all.

Nothing is perfect.

 

[Binge-Reader]

Honestly something I've been wonder if runes are tied to dwarvern understanding is one of the issues with the Rule of Three it's the common understanding of runes so to break it your sorta fighting the entire dwarven race's perception of something?

 

[BungieONI]

Honestly something I've been wonder if runes are tied to dwarvern understanding is one of the issues with the Rule of Three it's the common understanding of runes so to break it your sorta fighting the entire dwarven race's perception of something?

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In part yeah. The other part is that no material** can actually withstand the stresses put on it by inscribing more than three runes. They just go boom or don't work.

**yet found, my money is on True Gromril.

 

[Garlak]

I've wondered if it might be purity in something else. Such as "purity of focus/intent" -- the crafter must be totally dedicated to making the metal, and thinking of nothing but making it, and not even sparing thought for himself. (This ran into the obvious issue of "It's possible that runecrafting already requires absolute focus/It's possible that Snorri already sometimes does something like this.")

Then I wondered; maybe it's the environment? The forge has to be perfectly pure itself too? The tools? The everything? Or the crafter having to be perfectly purified and free of magic. (The latter might mean that it's only craftable by really old Dwarfs. The ones that are really resistant to magic.) Or just ritually purified before he starts crafting it, who knows.

It's like having a perfectly clean and sanitized object; yeah, it's perfectly clean... but it's only going to be that way until you put it down on the table or touch it without gloves.

Or maybe it needs to have the Runes applied, to "lock" it in, while it still remains in that "perfectly clean and sanitized object" state of being; because then, if you get the Runes onto it before it can make contact with the outside world, it's locked in and stabilized. (This runs into the possible issue of "Well for all we know, that's how Runes have to be applied to Adamant to begin with; you have to scribe the Runes upon while it's still in one of its malleable stages.")

EDIT: Or maybe simpler; maybe it needs to be "Divine." Perhaps it's an outright divine material.

Maybe the next stage just requires Divinity as a trait. Whether in the material or the crafter.

 

[BungieONI]

Or maybe it needs to have the Runes applied, to "lock" it in, while it still remains in that "perfectly clean and sanitized object" state of being; because then, if you get the Runes onto it before it can make contact with the outside world, it's locked in and stabilized. (This runs into the possible issue of "Well for all we know, that's how Runes have to be applied to Adamant to begin with; you have to scribe the Runes upon while it's still in one of its malleable stages.")

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We know for a fact this is the case with Adamant.

- Adamant Properties:
- The Metal is harder than pure Gromril, yet less dense. Melts at double the temperature of Pure Gromril, but requires far higher temperatures to actually manufacture.
- Runes must be inscribed on it when it is just below melting temperature. Once inscribed the Adamant hardens even further, becoming resistant to most magic, and cannot be smelted down again save through the use of the Adamant Smelter.
- Runes on Adamant are roughly half again stronger than on Pure Gromril. How the effect manifests is dependent on the Rune, but it's generally more potent than it is versatile.
- It does not break, you don't know what could shatter it outside of forces whose strength would boggle the mind.

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You can forge bars of Adamant, but to rune stuff with adamant it has to be just below melting temp and then it hardens even further and can't be smelted down again without the Smelter.

 

[Aramis]

Spoiler

Guys, How about using dragonbone to armour up the Birdcat King? It would let us preserve more of our adamant and might even help with the "Sky Sovereign" angle, thanks to (presumably) lesser weight and and the narrative factor of dragons being able to fly.