Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
There are runes, and then there are Runes.
Yes, and also even if it was provably true that non Dwarven Runecraft was the same thing as Dwarves do, it would still arguably be that Dwarven Runecraft secrets were still deserving of the exact same secrecy and protection. Humans undeniably have canons and guns yet that doesn't mean that engineers just spread around their good secrets after all.

And thats before we adress the fact that if they are the same thing runesmiths may be compelled by the fourth stricture to declare war and try and destroy all other races institutional knowledge.
Article:
Never allow any non-Dwarf who has somehow acquired some knowledge of runic magic to pass on their knowledge. This especially applies to humans who style themselves as "rune masters."[1b]

Theres a very real social/political pressure to make the distinction between runes and Runes extremely clear because otherwise the dwarves will be forced to throw out a lot of grudges or turn slayer.
 
Last edited:
Whether they could learn runes is completely immaterial to whether they'd be allowed to learn runes. The answer to which is no, out of the question. It'd be outright heresy. The rules and strictures about who can learn runecraft are very clear and explicit.
Well then ,time to get the Albionese/lizardmen to take in another lizard.... I just realized. That lizardmen bio robots might have more than a bit in common with our ever growing adoptees.
 
Last edited:
Well then ,time to get the Albionese/lizardmen to take in another lizard.
What are you talking about? Within the context of the quest we have no knowledge of these factions let alone pull to make it happen. And the dragon that wants to learn Runecraft is a pure hypothetical at this point.
I don't know if theres anything you're attempting to meaningfully discuss anymore?

Are you just extremely invested in the fact that its not impossible that somewhere out there a dragon with an extreme interest in enchanting carved some items with rune looking things on them?
 
What are you talking about? Within the context of the quest we have no knowledge of these factions let alone pull to make it happen. And the dragon that wants to learn Runecraft is a pure hypothetical at this point.
I don't know if theres anything you're attempting to meaningfully discuss anymore?

Are you just extremely invested in the fact that its not impossible that somewhere out there a dragon with an extreme interest in enchanting carved some items with rune looking things on them?
You bet your ass I am.
Also, master Yorri knows about the origins of the nondawi runes.He was extremely distraught about the whole thing.
 
You bet your ass I am.
Also, master Yorri knows about the origins of the nondawi runes.He was extremely distraught about the whole thing.
Wait what are you talking Yorri for?
There are a lot of origins for non dawi runes, things like being a couple of steps separated from the Old Ones language, or being a symbol for a god.
Its not a secret as much as its a confused subject because basically every magical tradition that does some form of enchanting has their own origin, has inherited some from a tradition that went extinct, or just plain forgot the origin.

At this point in the timeline its only really elves with their own runes though, that dwarves would be aware of at least. The origin of elven runes for instance is basically all Aneoquean with even god runes being derived that way but with an extra step. Lizardmen would have one, more purely derived from the Old Ones and dwarves don't know they exist really. The griffons haven't developed anything in this manner although I expect they will in time. Dragons don't have a formalised magical tradition so they don't have any. Humans haven't met the dwarves yet as far as I am aware.
 
Last edited:
Wait what are you talking Yorri for?
There are a lot of origins for non dawi runes, things like being a couple of steps separated from the Old Ones language, or being a symbol for a god.
Its not a secret as much as its a confused subject because basically every magical tradition that does some form of enchanting has their own origin, has inherited some from a tradition that went extinct, or just plain forgot the origin.

At this point in the timeline its only really elves with their own runes though, that dwarves would be aware of at least. The origin of elven runes for instance is basically all Aneoquean with even god runes being derived that way but with an extra step. Lizardmen would have one, more purely derived from the Old Ones and dwarves don't know they exist really. The griffons haven't developed anything in this manner although I expect they will in time. Dragons don't have a formalised magical tradition so they don't have any. Humans haven't met the dwarves yet as far as I am aware.
Yorri knows of the humans. Or at least recognized the runework. He even went away to to check them out and told us they were all dead or something when he got back.
 
Yorri knows of the humans. Or at least recognized the runework. He even went away to to check them out and told us they were all dead or something when he got back.
He recognised the runework on the hammer...
The dwarf made hammer. He recognised it because he knew the runesmith who made it.
Those were all dwarf Runes because we knew them or at least of them from other existing dwarf sources.

You're confusing it with the Sword and the armour.
 
Last edited:
On non-dwarven runecraft; the dwarves know they aren't a dwarven invention. They believe that Thungni discovered and copied pre-existing runes, he didn't create them. That means they pretty much know that someone else invented them and created them before the dwarves reproduced them. Any runesmith also knows that they don't understand how runes actually work, that they're black boxes that runemsiths duplicate without understanding them.

The old Albion book directly tells us that the Old Ones taught selected dwarves there how to make runes who then went back to their people to pass the knowledge on.

The later may or may not be the case here, but the former certainly is.

Now, the strictures of Thungni's Cuit several thousand years in the future make it very clear that sharing dwarven knowlege with non-dwarves, particularly with human rune masters, is forbidden, but in the present day that rule may not have become so ironclad. If, for example, a dragon flies over from Albion, asks where Grungni and Thungni are, and casually reveals that they were taught runecrafting alongside the pair of them by the same teachers, that may produce major theological problems in the Cult, but it won't necessarily result in a crusade to kill them.

There's gonna be many, many pointed questions about the parentage of a dragon who turns out to have the bloodline of Thungni running through the dragon's veins.

If dragons can shapeshift into forms that can interbreed with humans, they can presumably shift into forms that can interbreed with dwarves, and those in turn may be able to reproduce with other dragons to eventually produce dragons with a small amount of ancestry from Thungni.

Note how the foundling ruensmiths work. Potential runemsiths don't need to prove a heritage from Thungni to be taught, it's just assumed to be present in all those with the Gift.

Given that infidelity is presumably something that can happen with dwarves, and the general destruction of records during the Chaos incursion, there are probably many dwarves descended from foundlings who are potentially descendants of Thungni. As time passes, the proportion of dwarves this applies to will presumably increase.

Of course, taking that precedent and applying it to dragons is, let's say, a bit of a stretch, but if there ever are any dwarven equivalent of the Cathyan dragon-blooded it may one day become possible.

Rather unlikely though, even if the Northern dwarves extend the precedent of Snorri's shard dragons and the Eastern dragons develop a greater alliance with the magma dragons, neither of those are known to be able to assume humanoid form.
 
Last edited:
If dragons can shapeshift into forms that can interbreed with humans, they can presumably shift into forms that can interbreed with dwarves, and those in turn may be able to reproduce with other dragons to eventually produce dragons with a small amount of ancestry from Thungni.

Note how the foundling ruensmiths work. Potential runemsiths don't need to prove a heritage from Thungni to be taught, it's just assumed to be present in all those with the Gift.

Given that infidelity is presumably something that can happen with dwarves, and the general destruction of records during the Chaos incursion, there are probably many dwarves descended from foundlings who are potentially descendants of Thungni. As time passes, the proportion of dwarves this applies to will presumably increase.

Of course, taking that precedent and applying it to dragons is, let's say, a bit of a stretch, but if there ever are any dwarven equivalent of the Cathyan dragon-blooded it may one day become possible.

Rather unlikely though, even if the Northern dwarves extend the precedent of Snorri's shard dragons and the Eastern dragons develop a greater alliance with the magma dragons, neither of those are known to be able to assume humanoid form.
Who in WHF is the child of a dragon and a human? I can't claim to have a comprehensive knowledge but I'm very sure I don't remember that.
Is this Cathay stuff?
 
Who in WHF is the child of a dragon and a human? I can't claim to have a comprehensive knowledge but I'm very sure I don't remember that.
Is this Cathay stuff?

The aristocracy of Cathay are dragon blooded, the descendants of the children of the Celestial Emperor when they assumed humanoid form to take human consorts.

Edit: also, given that spellcasters can use magic to turn into dragons, ruensmiths may be able to use runes to turn into dragons, which is another way that this could happen.
 
Last edited:
The aristocracy of Cathay are dragon blooded, the descendants of the children of the Celestial Emperor when they assumed humanoid form to take human consorts.
Okay, but we do recognise that this is adding new steps and contortions to an already extremely unlikely scenario?
Now its no longer Thungni didn't vanish with the rest of the ancestors and fucked a dragon.
Its instead, Thungni didn't vanish with the rest of the ancestors, instead he went further east than any dwarf had gone before, then fucked a dragon who was transformed into a dwarf. Also unlike all other Dragon-Blooded, this one has a dragon form rather than a human/dwarf form.
 
I barely bother voting in this thread, but if ever someone offered a vote to take more apprentices I would vote for that option regardless of whatever else was in the plan.

But then I am utterly uninvolved in "the plans" that the high level players have decided.
 
Last edited:
I barely bother votging in this thread, but if ever someone offered a vote to take more apprentices I would vote for that option regardless of whatever else was in the plan.

But then I am utterly uninvolved in "the plans" that the high level players have decided.
Given that we are kinda of in a war that has a possibility of opening a rift to the warp, I imagine that getting more apprentices is not something we should do.
 
Given that we are kinda of in a war that has a possibility of opening a rift to the warp, I imagine that getting more apprentices is not something we should do.
Thats really more of an argument that would hold water if all of our actions where hinging around ending the war.
As it stands the plan seems more to be get the prereqs for next Material or do Akazit, and if the countdown ever seems like its going to happen within 70 years, then we wade into the fight to buy another 30 turns.
 
Thats really more of an argument that would hold water if all of our actions where hinging around ending the war.
As it stands the plan seems more to be get the prereqs for next Material or do Akazit, and if the countdown ever seems like its going to happen within 70 years, then we wade into the fight to buy another 30 turns.
Basically yeah, but we should think in the next turn to create some things for war against Fimir.
 
Okay, but we do recognise that this is adding new steps and contortions to an already extremely unlikely scenario?
Now its no longer Thungni didn't vanish with the rest of the ancestors and fucked a dragon.
Its instead, Thungni didn't vanish with the rest of the ancestors, instead he went further east than any dwarf had gone before, then fucked a dragon who was transformed into a dwarf. Also unlike all other Dragon-Blooded, this one has a dragon form rather than a human/dwarf form.

Not really, it's absolutely unlikely; but Thungni doesn't have to have done anything. Any dwarf that was potentially descended from Thungni needs to have had a child with a dragon while one of them was shapeshifted into a compatible form.

As the set of dwarves potentially descended from Thungni includes all dwarves whose ancestry is unknown to any degree, that's a wider set than you'd think.

The same applies to other species, if magic or runes can be used for shapeshifting. If a dwarf can somehow be temporarily shapeshifted into an elf and so conceive children with an elf whike transform, any elves descended from them could also be a descendant of Thungni if that original dwarf was. The same for Brana, or humans, or mammoths. They're all sapient creatures, and magic that allows people to temporarily or permanently change species exists.

Maybe it's not that likely, but then again, who can say whether there could be cross-species romance or even curiosity/open mindedness that could lead individuals to widen their range of experiences or desire children with someone originally from a different species. Presumably this is why the children of the Celestial Emperor had their own children with humans.

All it may need is a broad minded and talented enough Runelord to fall in love with one of Snorri's fostered shard dragon and create a Master Rune of Shard Dragon Form.

Basically yeah, but we should think in the next turn to create some things for war against Fimir.

Depending on how long the war lasts, the most productive thing we might be able to create to help fight it is more apprentices trained to Snorri's standards.
 
Last edited:
Depending on how long the war lasts, the most productive thing we might be able to create to help fight it is more apprentices trained to Snorri's standards.
It will take like 15 turns (okay that is maybe too much) and I was thinking more short-term like Grungi or some long-range weapons like giant ballistae or grudge thrower with special ammo. Oooooooh...Rune Bomb would be interesting to see!
 
Not really, it's absolutely unlikely; but Thungni doesn't have to have done anything. Any dwarf that was potentially descended from Thungni needs to have had a child with a dragon while one of them was shapeshifted into a compatible form.

As the set of dwarves potentially descended from Thungni includes all dwarves whose ancestry is unknown to any degree, that's a wider set than you'd think.

The same applies to other species, if magic or runes can be used for shapeshifting. If a dwarf can somehow be temporarily shapeshifted into an elf and so conceive children with an elf whike transform, any elves descended from them could also be a descendant of Thungni if that original dwarf was. The same for Brana, or humans, or mammoths. They're all sapient creatures, and magic that allows people to temporarily or permanently change species exists.

Maybe it's not that likely, but then again, who can say whether there could be cross-species romance or even curiosity/open mindedness that could lead individuals to widen their range of experiences or desire children with someone originally from a different species. Presumably this is why the children of the Celestial Emperor had their own children with humans.

All it may need is a broad minded and talented enough Runelord to fall in love with one of Snorri's fostered shard dragon and create a Master Rune of Shard Dragon Form.



Depending on how long the war lasts, the most productive thing we might be able to create to help fight it is more apprentices trained to Snorri's standards.
If its the dwarf who's transformed into a non dwarf then its entirely reasonable to expect that the blood of thungni doesn't bleed true, because biologically its now two elves banging and there might be a complete disconnect from Thungni's DNA. We don't know how the inheritance works or why it works that way, and we also don't know shit about the transformation, so you're putting additional strain on an already shaky link.

And no "I fell in love with a dragon so I created a master rune equivilant to the most powerful sort of battle magic so that I could live the rest of my life in a body that isn't mine" is not a short or easy bar to clear.
There are no known examples of what you're describing between an Elf and a Dwarf which seems far easier and more likely to occur.
 
Last edited:
hmmm could always be some magic shenanigans turning a dragon into a dwarf? then said not a dragon/dwarf mixing into the line of thungni?
 
hmmm could always be some magic shenanigans turning a dragon into a dwarf? then said not a dragon/dwarf mixing into the line of thungni?
Every known case a dragon has turned into something else and had a baby the offspring seems to have been of the others species, therefore this scenario as unlikely as it is, doesn't seem to clear the bar of the initial statement:
Or a dragon interested in runesmithing.
Also the only known dragons who've ever done this are from Cathay and the Dwarves never really interacted with them all that much.
 
If its the dwarf who's transformed into a non dwarf then its entirely reasonable to expect that the blood of thungni doesn't bleed true, because biologically its now two elves banging and there might be a complete disconnect from Thungni's DNA. We don't know how the inheritance works or why it works that way, and we also don't know shit about the transformation, so you're putting additional strain on an already shaky link.

And no "I fell in love with a dragon so I created a master rune equivilant to the most powerful sort of battle magic so that I could live the rest of my life in a body that isn't mine" is not a short or easy bar to clear.
There are no known examples of what you're describing between an Elf and a Dwarf which seems far easier and more likely to occur.

When a celestial dragon is transformed into a form that can conceive children with humans, those descendants aren't metaphysically baseline humans. They inherit their draconic ancestor's magical characteristics, specifically, unlikely humans they can channel multiple Winds of Magic through their souls to produce Qhaysh.

As a result, I don't see why DNA would be relevant to what appears to be a characteristic of the soul based on what we know, particularly given the counter-example above.

There's a half-elf half-human in modern day Warhammer, so someone seems to have managed it for those two species. The fact that there are none in the current Warhammer isn't that strong evidence, given that elves and dwarves hate each other, interact little, and in the modern day runecraft is a pale shadow of its former self and archmages are particularly unlikely to be exposed to dwarves in the circumstances required for this.

In any case; there are two aspects to this. One is having the Gift and the other is the dwarves recognising descent from Thungni. A non-dwarf seeking knowledge of runes could theoretically have neither, one of the two, or both.

For example, there could be other ways to gain the Gift beyond descent from Thungni (indeed, we know for certain there are, as both the other Ancestor Gods and whoever inscribed the runes Thungni copied could).

And for the other aspect; in the unlikely but not impossible event that we do see dwarves interbreeding with other species, what the Cult of Thungni judges a dwarf and what they judge descent from Thungni to mean is a political judgement.

In the most extreme case, they could say that members of other species that are trusted enough can be declared honorary dwarves and ritually adopted as a blood member of a runesmith clan deemed to descend from Thungni by sharing literal or symbolic blood. Think transubstantiated Communion Wine for example.

And a last note. Permanent transformation isn't required. Transformation of Kadon haste until dispelled or dismissed. They'd just need to stay transformed long enough to conceive or bear a child, depending on sex. We see this in Celestial Dragons. They didn't need to start human forever.
 
Last edited:
For example, there could be other ways to gain the Gift beyond descent from Thungni
At the point that we get to arguing about the metaphysical nature of the Gift the answer becomes, the runesmith would refuse to teach the dragon because they think this is some kind of trick and the rule talks about dwarves and non dwarves, not gift havers and not gift havers.

Soulcake can rule however he likes on the question after we've gotten through the multiple Consternations blocking that part of the tech tree off from us, but theres nothing useful either of us can offer except from you speculating things that mean you're right and me pointing out how wildly unsubstantiated your speculation is.
 
Cathayan Dragons can shapeshift and breed with humans because they are half moon-entity from their mom. Normal dragons lack this capability. Also since when was their a half-elf in Warhammer?
 
Back
Top