RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

[soulcake]

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

 

[Dark as Silver]

I'm sorry I made this into a chore of a conversation.

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That isn't what I meant at all. I meant that I was running out of ways I could think of to restate and clarify. The issue was me and not you.

I don't think it was more powerful than the kit Snorri makes at all.

That makes no sense whatsoever, among other things he's probably popped out like half a dozen variations on that exact shield for the Hearthguard. The shield is not really significant.

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Ehhhh, I think this is one of those occassions where narrative and mechanics just don't make sense together. After all, Snorri is still personally using a T2 Axe so when he was making new equipment for the Hearthguard it doesn't appear that it was worth it to make 101 axes instead of 100 and upgrade his current equipment.
Simple and Complex request creations just don't compare by the same rules.

 

[DragonParadox]

So now that it's pretty clear we are getting dragons what do you guys think is going to be the reaction? My guess is something like this:

Karak Drak: Snori Idea...? Snori Idea, dragons sound great, they even fit the naming scheme, you will have beardlings treating them like mascots and longbeards grumbling fondly in no time
Brana: Broadly supportive since it is the same impulse that lead to the alliance with them by some of the same people
Elves: Well they aren't proper dragons, but dwarfs also love living in a hole in the ground so is the shoe fits
The North: Welp... that's an Odd one, just the kind of thing Snori does I guess, hope our Runesmiths do not get any idea of the sort though
Southern Holds: What in Grungi's name is going on up there?

 

[Shaper47]

So now that it's pretty clear we are getting dragons what do you guys think is going to be the reaction?

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Dawi already think that Snorri is utterly insane so I don't think it will cause that much of a reaction to how they think about Snorri.

As for the reaction to the dragons, I think its going to be caution for at least a few centuries. Got to see how they do first, still if anybody is going to be raising dragons to be proper members of society then Snorri is the right dawi for the job.

 

[Dark as Silver]

So now that it's pretty clear we are getting dragons what do you guys think is going to be the reaction? My guess is something like this:

Karak Drak: Snori Idea...? Snori Idea, dragons sound great, they even fit the naming scheme, you will have beardlings treating them like mascots and longbeards grumbling fondly in no time
Brana: Broadly supportive since it is the same impulse that lead to the alliance with them by some of the same people
Elves: Well they aren't proper dragons, but dwarfs also love living in a hole in the ground so is the shoe fits
The North: Welp... that's an Odd one, just the kind of thing Snori does I guess, hope our Runesmiths do not get any idea of the sort though
Southern Holds: What in Grungi's name is going on up there?

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I think you're wildly optimistic about how Dwarves will respond. They have spent millennia fighting dragons. And Shard Dragons are the worst because they tunnel. The entire Throng mobilised to fight just one elder of this species.
This isn't some abstract experiment, this is like raising Beastmen to see if theyre inherently corrupted.
The best opinions are going to be "Well Snorri will kill them if they're going to do harm" and the worst will be "This will inevitably fail and he risks extreme harm to the hold and surrounding region when it does. "

 

[DragonParadox]

I think you're wildly optimistic about how Dwarves will respond. They have spent millennia fighting dragons. And Shard Dragons are the worst because they tunnel. The entire Throng mobilised to fight just one elder of this species.
This isn't some abstract experiment, this is like raising Beastmen to see if theyre inherently corrupted.
The best opinions are going to be "Well Snorri will kill them if they're going to do harm" and the worst will be "This will inevitably fail and he risks extreme harm to the hold and surrounding region when it does. "

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Worth keeping in mind that elves have dragon allies and elves and dawi are allies by oath made to the Ancestor Gods themselves. It is easy to project post War of the Beard mentality onto our dwarfs, but we are not them. We know as a intellectual thing that dragons are people and that the can in fact live in peace with a civilized society. Or to put it another way we know some dragons were on the right side during the Incursion, not so beastmen. Any grudge dwarfs have with dragons are with individuals.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Worth keeping in mind that elves have dragon allies and elves and dawi are allies by oath made to the Ancestor Gods themselves. It is easy to project post War of the Beard mentality onto our dwarfs, but we are not them. We know as a intellectual thing that dragons are people and that the can in fact live in peace with a civilized society. Or to put it another way we know some dragons were on the right side during the Incursion, not so beastmen. Any grudge dwarfs have with dragons are with individuals.

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Elven dragons are a distinct species and political entity from Old World Dragons and Shard dragons are even further divorced.
This isn't a friend of my friend I've never met before situation. It's a enemy I've been battling for as long as history records whose cousin's cousin is a friend of a friend. I've also been at war with the cousin.
As far as dwarves would be concerned the Ithilmari dragons are a weird edge case.

And I didn't say anything about specific grudges. If I believed these eggs would inherit them Snorri wouldn't have considered it and the worst case would be when a clan comes to besige our house.
What I said is that the worst case expectation is that these dragons will inevitably behave in a way to earn grudges rather than becoming civilised.

 

[DragonParadox]

Elven dragons are a distinct species and political entity from Old World Dragons and Shard dragons are even further divorced.
This isn't a friend of my friend I've never met before situation. It's a enemy I've been battling for as long as history records whose cousin's cousin is a friend of a friend. I've also been at war with the cousin.
As far as dwarves would be concerned the Ithilmari dragons are a weird edge case.

And I didn't say anything about specific grudges. If I believed these eggs would inherit them Snorri wouldn't have considered it and the worst case would be when a clan comes to besige our house.
What I said is that the worst case expectation is that these dragons will inevitably behave in a way to earn grudges rather than becoming civilised.

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Elven dragons form if not a majority than at least a significant plurality of all dragons in the world, the idea that dwarfs would just shrug at the fact that they were a significant part of the defense of Ulthuan during the incursion feels kind of insulting to the dwarfs to assume honestly. 'All dragons are savages who will inevitably cause great harm other than the ones in Ulthuan that are a weird edge case' is an inherently stupid as well as xenophobic position to hold, all the more so now that the have the Brana and Elves as an example of allies from other species.

If you are right and dwarfs as a whole are that stupidly xenophobic though it is doubly important that we decided to hatch those eggs as it would dissuade the Karaz Ankor of a notion that could only cause needless death and suffering as dwarfs attack dragons which did them no harm.

 

[OzymandiasAgain]

Speaking of Dwarfs knowing of Caledor, wanted to ask if Elves have also made contact in the South too?

I mean Barak Varr was mentioned in the Ship update, so one easy point of contact there. Similarly, the Tilean Mountains, were at some point of time, inhabited by Dawi, and Tilea and Estalia were some of the older(?) Elven colonies iirc.

In short, I was asking what is the current contact and colonization status of Elves with Old World.

 

[Franksson]

Dwarfen culture is in general xenophobic, those people invent new stuff regularly and then try their best to not use it because is new, newly hatched dragons that have no control over themself and for wich is impossible to vouch for are the definition of NEW.
An insult in dawi society.
If Snorry was an engenier and not a runelord the dragons will lead him immediatly to the trousers leg ritual.
Funnily enough the magic subsect of this society is more open to innovations that the science subsect.
Still I am fairly certain the beast is going to get axed by Snorry.
Dawi do not trust animals in combat, the Brana are sentient and got a pass, the two dragon that could be sentient migth get one, the third probably isn't.

Pre war of vengeance dawi society was also one of the things that brougth the war of vengeance in the first place, so is not like it was perfect and open first, it just got worse after.

 

[DragonParadox]

Dwarfen culture is in general xenophobic, those people invent new stuff regularly and then try their best to not use it because is new, newly hatched dragons that have no control over themself and for wich is impossible to vouch for are the definition of NEW.
An insult in dawi society.
If Snorry was an engenier and not a runelord the dragons will lead him immediatly to the trousers leg ritual.
Funnily enough the magic subsect of this society is more open to innovations that the science subsect.
Still I am fairly certain the beast is going to get axed by Snorry.
Dawi do not trust animals in combat, the Brana are sentient and got a pass, the two dragon that could be sentient migth get one, the third probably isn't.

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1. I am not so sure if I would call a society resistant to change xenophobic by default. The fact remains that of the two (three if you count Caladorian dragons) species the dwarfs have had peaceful contact with all are now valued allies. Also worth noting that in canon when a contingent of vampires from Strygos showed up at the Silver Pentacle, these being living dead magicians that glow with Dhar, the dwarfs initially welcomed them as envoys
2. Engineers are not the science subset, certainly not now, they are the 'make siege weapons and crossbows' subset. The great expansion of engineering that we see in canon is precisely because of the loss of rune lore

 

[Franksson]

Not really, the engeniers already have established the world is round and calculated is approximathe size, they already know of lighter than air gasses, and at this point figured gunpowder already but are still testing it (cannons are seens as new and unreliable during the war of vengeance).
It is never stated in a source that I know that the engeniering expansion kick of due to loss of rune lore, it is true that the engeniers got better with time (unlike any other thing made by the dawi) ovever litteraly all dawi knowledge degraded with time.
By your logic the engeniers could also have reacted by the decrease in mining knowledge or stonemasons knowledge etc.
When in reality they probably just got better at things because they write stuff down instead of keeping it oral.
Keep in mind we only see the engeniers as the balista and catapul guys because we are not allowed inside their guild secrets.
New peoples are new "things", if you hate all new stuff strangers that do not look like you do not speak like you and do not live like you are pretty new and changesetting.
The elfes got a pretty low value as an ally rigth now, sure they sell and buy stuff and it is good, but I will wager the Brana far outshine them since they fougth and died with the dawi.
And the Brana are probably ignored by most dawi south of Karak-Drak since they are so few that they could almost not exist at all for a southern dwarf.
Before the war of vengeance the dawi though very little of the dragons of ulthuan.
When the topic got mentioned they will answer with "Yea a balista will do the job", it didn't but you got the idea.

 

[DragonParadox]

Not really, the engeniers already have established the world is round and calculated is approximathe size, they already know of lighter than air gasses, and at this point figured gunpowder already but are still testing it (cannons are seens as new and unreliable during the war of vengeance).
It is never stated in a source that I know that the engeniering expansion kick of due to loss of rune lore, it is true that the engeniers got better with time (unlike any other thing made by the dawi) ovever litteraly all dawi knowledge degraded with time.
By your logic the engeniers could also have reacted by the decrease in mining knowledge or stonemasons knowledge etc.
When in reality they probably just got better at things because they write stuff down instead of keeping it oral.
Keep in mind we only see the engeniers as the balista and catapul guys because we are not allowed inside their guild secrets.
New peoples are new "things", if you hate all new stuff strangers that do not look like you do not speak like you and do not live like you are pretty new and changesetting.
The elfes got a pretty low value as an ally rigth now, sure they sell and buy stuff and it is good, but I will wager the Brana far outshine them since they fougth and died with the dawi.
And the Brana are probably ignored by most dawi south of Karak-Drak since they are so few that they could almost not exist at all for a southern dwarf.
Before the war of vengeance the dawi though very little of the dragons of ulthuan.
When the topic got mentioned they will answer with "Yea a balista will do the job", it didn't but you got the idea.

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There's a lot of extrapolation from things to people in this that I do not think is waranted. I mean let's look at all the examples when the dwarfs met new people who were not outright slaves to Chaos:
Present
Elves: Formed an alliance with them on the spot, worked out great until the War of the Beard
Brana: Got friendly relations with them as soon as we could talk, alliance soon to follow
Future:
Dragons: Are implied to have helped with Gormil refinment during the Golden Age only to betray the dwarfs during the war of the Beard
Nehekara: This one is fuzzy but we know they traded
Pre-Imperial tribes: dwarfs wanted to talk to them, humans kept running leaving behind only shit tools hance'Umgi', makers of shoddy stuff. still even accounting for that when humans and dwarfs met even in pre-Sigmar times they traded and the dwarfs were the ones who taught them mining and metal working
Vampires: Treated as honored envoys until Nefferata assassinated a king, killed his people and stole their Karak

Note that three of the examples given end with 'and then the dwarfs were betrayed' which lead to the very real xenophobia of canon, but we are not there yet and Ancestors willing we won't get there.

 

[Franksson]

Hum, I think you got a point there.
Heck screw this you very well could be rigth, still I am quite worried that we could have to kill the non sentient dragon.
Or invent and then give him the subjucations collar.

 

[Voikirium]

betray the dwarfs during the war of the Beard

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Dunno that I'd really call helping older and closer allies against newer and less certain allies betrayal, really. Like even from a Dwarf's point of view while they probably aren't real happy about the whole "they helped the people they were closer to and for longer against a second more provisional ally after relations really, truly break down" isn't really crazy pants, you know?

 

[DragonParadox]

Oh and one more I forgot, Kislevites, former Chaos Worshipers who turned on the Dark Gods and ended up friendly with the dwarfs, if not as much as the Empire, the High King did die due to the defense of Kiselv City in the Great War Against Chaos (he died of wounds later).

Dunno that I'd really call helping older and closer allies against newer and less certain allies betrayal, really. Like even from a Dwarf's point of view while they probably aren't real happy about the whole "they helped the people they were closer to and for longer against a second more provisional ally after relations really, truly break down" isn't really crazy pants, you know?

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Given the horrific loss of life a rampaging dragon would cause as with the loss of Thunder Mountain I do not think logic had much to do with how the dwarfs would see things.

 

[Voikirium]

Oh and one more I forgot, Kislevites, former Chaos Worshipers who turned on the Dark Gods and ended up friendly with the dwarfs, if not as much as the Empire, the High King did die due to the defense of Kiselv City in the Great War Against Chaos (he died of wounds later).



Given the horrific loss of life a rampaging dragon would cause as with the loss of Thunder Mountain I do not think logic had much to do with how the dwarfs would see things.

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Probably, but I'm just saying that at the least there's probably Dwarf philosophers dropping "is what the Dragons did to us that different from what we do to Bretonnia when it is at war with the Empire, in its nature, if plainly much greater of its scale?"

(For the unaware the Dwarfs shut the mountains passes that lead from Bretonnia to the Empire when the two are at war but otherwise have fairly good relations)

 

[DragonParadox]

Probably, but I'm just saying that at the least there's probably Dwarf philosophers dropping "is what the Dragons did to us that different from what we do to Bretonnia when it is at war with the Empire, in its nature, if plainly much greater of its scale?"

(For the unaware the Dwarfs shut the mountains passes that lead from Bretonnia to the Empire when the two are at war but otherwise have fairly good relations)

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Probably yeah.

 

[OzymandiasAgain]

I was recently rereading the whole quest and I remember at one point, before the arrival of Kholek Suneater, King Otrek and the King of the Skies had encounterd a drakk that they had first tried to reason with before being forced to fight it as it was maddened due to injury.

That implies Dawi see the sentient Drakk as somebeing they can reason with, I guess.

 

[Dark as Silver]

Elven dragons form if not a majority than at least a significant plurality of all dragons in the world, the idea that dwarfs would just shrug at the fact that they were a significant part of the defense of Ulthuan during the incursion feels kind of insulting to the dwarfs to assume honestly. 'All dragons are savages who will inevitably cause great harm other than the ones in Ulthuan that are a weird edge case' is an inherently stupid as well as xenophobic position to hold, all the more so now that the have the Brana and Elves as an example of allies from other species.

If you are right and dwarfs as a whole are that stupidly xenophobic though it is doubly important that we decided to hatch those eggs as it would dissuade the Karaz Ankor of a notion that could only cause needless death and suffering as dwarfs attack dragons which did them no harm.

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Hang on... Elven dragons are indeed a physiologically distinct species of Dragon. Thats not disputable.
Sun/Moon/Star dragons exist on Ulthan. Only on Ulthan. And I do not believe that Wind aspected Dragon species live on Ulthan. Shard Dragons almost certainly do not because its a floating island, which cannot be a easily habitable location for them.
Additionally Elves do not have an alliance with Frost dragons in general as far as I know, and while I'm sure they have some arrangements, these they are on a case by case basis with specific individuals.

This all makes it very easy for dwarves to say "Well dragons over there are different to the ones we have."
So yeah, I do actually think dwarves would shrug at this. Elves have them, and dwarves only have second hand accounts. They aren't going revise everything they know based on such flimsy evidence. Now if a Dragon from Ulthan came (Presumably with an Elf to calm the initial reaction) thats one thing, and it would be treated as such. All dragons all over the world is another thing altogether.

And this isn't an argument about should we hatch them or not, its not an argument about how likely this is to be successful . I don't know why you'd bring it up that its important to attempt. Because I'm not saying this is doomed to fail, I'm saying that's the worst case opinion of dwarves that we should be prepared to expect.

Heck screw this you very well could be rigth, still I am quite worried that we could have to kill the non sentient dragon.

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Sentient appears to be the default for Shard dragons in this time period in soulcake canon, so until we see the results of the hatching and possibly several turns after I would say its quite premature to assume that they're dead.
And even if we do, its a shame but... its non sentient so we'll get over it.

 

[DragonParadox]

Hang on... Elven dragons are indeed a physiologically distinct species of Dragon. Thats not disputable.
Sun/Moon/Star dragons exist on Ulthan. Only on Ulthan. And I do not believe that Wind aspected Dragon species live on Ulthan. Shard Dragons almost certainly do not because its a floating island, which cannot be a easily habitable location for them.
Additionally Elves do not have an alliance with Frost dragons in general as far as I know, and while I'm sure they have some arrangements, these they are on a case by case basis with specific individuals.

This all makes it very easy for dwarves to say "Well dragons over there are different to the ones we have."
So yeah, I do actually think dwarves would shrug at this. Elves have them, and dwarves only have second hand accounts. They aren't going revise everything they know based on such flimsy evidence. Now if a Dragon from Ulthan came (Presumably with an Elf to calm the initial reaction) thats one thing, and it would be treated as such. All dragons all over the world is another thing altogether.

And this isn't an argument about should we hatch them or not, its not an argument about how likely this is to be successful . I don't know why you'd bring it up that its important to attempt. Because I'm not saying this is doomed to fail, I'm saying that's the worst case opinion of dwarves that we should be prepared to expect.


Sentient appears to be the default for Shard dragons in this time period in soulcake canon, so until we see the results of the hatching and possibly several turns after I would say its quite premature to assume that they're dead.
And even if we do, its a shame but... its non sentient so we'll get over it.

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As was noted in the post above yours during the incursion the King of the Skies King Otrek tried to talk to a dragon before fighting it, that would imply a clear acceptance of not only dragon personhood, but their ability to choose to ally with the dwarfs.

 

[Dark as Silver]

As was noted in the post above yours during the incursion the King of the Skies King Otrek tried to talk to a dragon before fighting it, that would imply a clear acceptance of not only dragon personhood, but their ability to choose to ally with the dwarfs.

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Actually, no Otrek didn't

"Damn thing came flying out of the sky spitting death at us right after a battle with some beasties. Griffon Rikki tried to speak with it, but it was either uncaring or in too much pain to listen to reason. Butchered a good amount of us before we put it down," Gormak replies, adjusting the sling for his broken arm.

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He was just present when KoS tried.
And nobody has denied a dragons intelligence, remember what I'm actually saying

What I said is that the worst case expectation is that these dragons will inevitably behave in a way to earn grudges rather than becoming civilised.

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Merely that their pride, stubbornness and arrogance will inevitably lead then into conflict with reasonable and not at all proud, stubborn or arrogant dwarves.
Attempting to negotiate isn't really proof of anything because conflict can be postponed but when their position its inevitable it'll happen eventually its kind of unfalsifiable because you would have to wait for an eternity to happen before you've proved it won't.
This was kinda just the Kangaroo "After That It Gets Difficult" meme. Except they failed to get to the After that stage.

 

[Tinkerer]

A bit off-topic, but something I've been wondering. Is Adamant Chain a possibility?

 

[BungieONI]

A bit off-topic, but something I've been wondering. Is Adamant Chain a possibility?

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Likely yes. We've made scale mail for Skarrenbakraz already.

However, I strongly doubt it will be a research project like Gromril Chain was - in significant part because there's not much point because Snorri already likely has the equipment to make it. Between a Chainforger and Snorri's own equipment, he can probably draw out adamant wire. Or just straight up transmute gromril wire into adamant wire using a smelter.

The capability thus likely exists with what we already have to make it. We also cannot mass produce it like we do Gromril Chain and hand the method to Master Runesmiths or Blacksmiths because Adamant is a secret of the Brotherhood of Dron. So that reason for a research project is also dead in the water.

Adamant chain I think is placed strongly in the fluff category of stuff we can add to descriptions of Difficult Requests as a flex of his skill.

 

[DragonParadox]

Worth keeping in mind that most dwarfs do not know the distinction between Gormil and Adamant. You cannot even make the difference with runes since it cannot take four runes, just one Lonely Rune and one normal, but that like adamant itself is Ruunesmith inside baseball, all Normal McDwarfFace is going to see is 'this cool armor made by Snori is tougher than usual'. Is it the runes, is is the use of special reagents? They don't know, they cannot read runes for the most part.

 

[Dark as Silver]

A bit off-topic, but something I've been wondering. Is Adamant Chain a possibility?

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Not any time soon.
E:

Likely yes. We've made scale mail for Skarrenbakraz already.

However, I strongly doubt it will be a research project like Gromril Chain was - in significant part because there's not much point because Snorri already likely has the equipment to make it. Between a Chainforger and Snorri's own equipment, he can probably draw out adamant wire. Or just straight up transmute gromril wire into adamant wire using a smelter.

The capability thus likely exists with what we already have to make it. We also cannot mass produce it like we do Gromril Chain and hand the method to Master Runesmiths or Blacksmiths because Adamant is a secret of the Brotherhood of Dron. So that reason for a research project is also dead in the water.

Adamant chain I think is placed strongly in the fluff category of stuff we can add to descriptions of Difficult Requests as a flex of his skill.

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If Snorri could do it with the current equipment he probably already would have.
Its likely some combination of the rune combo doesn't weaken Adamant enough, he can't get enough force to draw it through the die (presumably even with the Miner helping), he can't get a working die as it would take a significant investment of Adamant or even an amount of Glimril (Dies need to be a lot harder than the wire, so Pure Gromril won't do unless the Adamant is weakened more than that, so either we need Adamant dies with a very effective combo or Glimril dies)
I think soulcake once mentioned that putting Gromril chain in the smelter would leave it with Adamant chain but all fused together. I'd assume its the same issue with wire after its wound into a spring to make the rings.