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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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The Engineer's Guild already has a Chemistry subset and I don't ever see Dwarfs being able to do Alchemy without Runes.

Unless you're talking about Chaos Dwarfs, which we hopefully aren't. :p

There is going to be an extremely limited supply of tools that this Alchemist Guild will absolutely require to even function and I suspect there will be Master Runes involved.
Does the engineers guild cover chemistry? I've never seen it directly mentioned as something that's explicitly part of their purview, everything I've read about the guild implies they cover devices. I see chemistry as something that all the craftsdwarf guilds dip into to certain degrees, from the runesmiths to the smiths to the engineers to the carpenters and probably more, some of those guilds probably have individual members who are more focused on material science but only so far as it pertains to their craft. The Brotherhood of Dron are interested in metals that hold runes better, smiths will be interested in metals that take blows better or hold better edges, engineers will want materials that work better for whatever devices they're making. The advantage of a unified guild that covers all these areas would be the ability to take a holistic approach to the entire field.

With regards to their reliance on the Runesmiths, first off I don't think this is inherently problematic, warriors are inherently reliant on smiths who are inherently reliant on miners, reliance isn't really a problem in dwarven society and I suspect it is deliberately baked in by the ancestors to reduce issues from grudging. The alchemists guild isn't going to need that many sets of tools, if each runesmith only made one set of tools you'd have enough for a magical side of the alchemists guild equal to the number of runesmiths and the payoff from that time investment would be more than worth it. But I really don't think the alchemists will be entirely reliant on runed tools, we've already seen from the odd places that materials can be magically infused without requiring a wizard or a runesmith to directly intervene and I'd expect the alchemists to build on that knowledge. From a more meta stance Draughts are a thing in warhammer.


And on a completely different topic I want to consider plans for next turn, and the future. The options for what we could do in my order of preference are:

Valaya's basket - This is still my favourite, I think turn 41 may well be the last time we see Valaya before the ancestors leave so I want to get this basket done before then, partially so if she has a follow-up planned she can give it to us partially because I feel it would be a little shameful to not have even looked at the gift she gave us. I'm also not sure if we'll ever get it done if we don't do it next turn.
Learning Eltharin - This is a pretty high priority for me, I don't think it's necessary to do it before the commissions but if we don't we should definitely do it turn 43, it also gets a little boost thanks to our new elven pen pal.
Starting the Commissions - This is tied with learning Eltharin for me. It means potentially getting the commissions done a turn earlier and leaves an entire turn of flex in our plans.
Wardstones - This is the only option I actively dislike, I don't buy the claim that we'd use them on the Gazulites equipment since I don't think they can be put on small equipment (If they could why would the inventors put them on massive stones the Dawi of Dum had to lug around) and the Gazulites themselves made no mention of them in the request. Soulcake has also confirmed other runesmiths have some of the ward stones so there are others they can go to if they really want some anti scrying runes made for them.

Lastly is Rune Metal 5 which is in a weird place for me right now, I've said before I don't think it's worth researching unless we're planning to use it, but there may actually be an option I'd be willing to use it on. @BelligerentGnu pointed out that Snorri might have been inspired by the tale of the Everqueen to invent the Master Rune of Kingship, and if that is an option next turn I'd be willing to start work on T5 Gromril so we can use it for the crown we put MKingship on. The sooner we can get that rune sat on the king of Kraka Drakk's head the sooner it can start absorbing his knowledge and wisdom to pass on. Ideally we'd have it ready for Otrek but I doubt he will hold on that long but that's no excuse not to get on Gloins head ASAP, especially since it strikes me as another rune that Snorri would consider sharing like he's going to with chain. So in summary if MKingship isn't among the options next turn Rune Metal 5 is above wardstones below the rest, if it is however Rune Metal 5 jumps up to probably slightly above Eltharin but still below the basket for me.
 
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[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Lax: Any Runesmith who has reached the rank of Master is worthy. All of the two dozen will be taught.

My vote mainly comes down to the fact I don't think I can stomach denying to teach people who just want the ability to give others their limbs back. They are Master Runesmiths (so already competent and vetted) who want to actively help their communities by giving dwarves back their limbs. We shouldn't restrict the teaching of this rune to those who only think like us, because a conservative should have an equal opportunity to help his community back home.
 
Forged Limb is told to risk conflict between runestmiths and Valaya cult. It was never clarified how and why it would happen. I tried to think about possible scenarios in context of dwarven culture.

Conflict would likely be caused not bye clash between runesmith and valayans - it would be driven by conflict between runesmiths.

Scenario:
- runesmith A takes commisions and gets paid handsomely for forged limbs
- runesmith B makes agreement with valayans for healing, similar to one Snorri have

Runesmith 'A' is ticked off, because 'B' is poaching his commision. For Snorri comissions are non-issue, but it's important to remember that commisions are precious for typical runesmith. So runeshmith 'A' is upset, and points that valayans are unfairly interfering with him. They are helping 'A' to poach commisions, thus interfering with remit of runesmithing guild.
 
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Does the engineers guild cover chemistry? I've never seen it directly mentioned as something that's explicitly part of their purview, everything I've read about the guild implies they cover devices. I see chemistry as something that all the craftsdwarf guilds dip into to certain degrees, from the runesmiths to the smiths to the engineers to the carpenters and probably more, some of those guilds probably have individual members who are more focused on material science but only so far as it pertains to their craft. The Brotherhood of Dron are interested in metals that hold runes better, smiths will be interested in metals that take blows better or hold better edges, engineers will want materials that work better for whatever devices they're making. The advantage of a unified guild that covers all these areas would be the ability to take a holistic approach to the entire field.

With regards to their reliance on the Runesmiths, first off I don't think this is inherently problematic, warriors are inherently reliant on smiths who are inherently reliant on miners, reliance isn't really a problem in dwarven society and I suspect it is deliberately baked in by the ancestors to reduce issues from grudging. The alchemists guild isn't going to need that many sets of tools, if each runesmith only made one set of tools you'd have enough for a magical side of the alchemists guild equal to the number of runesmiths and the payoff from that time investment would be more than worth it. But I really don't think the alchemists will be entirely reliant on runed tools, we've already seen from the odd places that materials can be magically infused without requiring a wizard or a runesmith to directly intervene and I'd expect the alchemists to build on that knowledge. From a more meta stance Draughts are a thing in warhammer.
Yes the Engineers Guild practices chemistry and honestly this sounds like something the Engineers would fight over.

It is problematic due to the Rule of Pride. The smiths and miners are allowed to make more than one of the same tool. Your solution is far too coordinated for Runesmiths to ever consider it and anything less wouldn't allow this Guild to exist.

Alkhemy, the art of transforming one thing to another. From what little this tome says on the subject, it doesn't seem too dissimilar to the Chemistry practiced by the Engineers Guild, or Metallurgy of the Metalsmiths, combining and altering substances to create new ones with desirable properties, though with a far more magical bent to it.
 
Yes the Engineers Guild practices chemistry and honestly this sounds like something the Engineers would fight over.
It's also been mentioned in-quest that something done by one Guild can be split off into a new Guild though. Jorri was talking about a job his Guild was arguing with another Guild about Re: who's Guild it fell under, and Snorri mentioned it sounded like a new Guild should be made for it.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
Gain: Greater impact when you do reveal it, what with the work. ??? Deed and Title, Chainwright.

[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
It's also been mentioned in-quest that something done by one Guild can be split off into a new Guild though. Jorri was talking about a job his Guild was arguing with another Guild about Re: who's Guild it fell under, and Snorri mentioned it sounded like a new Guild should be made for it.
In the same sentence Snorri was reminded of the fact that legal troubles lasting a few centuries was nothing compared to founding a new Guild.
 
[X] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
Yes the Engineers Guild practices chemistry and honestly this sounds like something the Engineers would fight over.

It is problematic due to the Rule of Pride. The smiths and miners are allowed to make more than one of the same tool. Your solution is far too coordinated for Runesmiths to ever consider it and anything less wouldn't allow this Guild to exist.
Thanks for the quote. Though I'm not 100% sure they would fight over it, the messenger/merchant argument was because both wanted to profit from the same thing however the engineers would be one of the main customers for the alchemists. It would be less them fighting for the same market and more the alchemists supplying the engineers. Worst case Snorri just tells the alchemists to stay away from selling anything related to the areas engineers lay claim to.

The rule of pride isn't really an issue for regular runes unless the runesmith is conservative, Snorri alone could easily supply the early alchemists guild and as it grew his apprentices and anyone else he's taught the runes to can help. Worst case scenario the conservatives win the debate and in the future you're limited to 1 alchemist per runesmith (except not really because I'm pretty sure well made and maintained runes last longer than a runesmith). I'm also not sure I see the coordination argument, alchemists commission tools runesmiths make the tools, it would be no different from any other guilds relation with the runesmiths and would be far less problematic than the alternative of carving out an alchemists guild within the runesmiths like some people have been talking about.
 
Forged Limb is told to risk conflict between runestmiths and Valaya cult. It was never clarified how and why it would happen.

I think the primary source of conflict is that the Valayans would want the forged limbs to be deployed as widely as possibble, whereas the more conservative runesmiths would balk at that due to rule-of-pride shenanigans. And unlike our usual technically-breaking-the-rule ways, this would both be more widespread - and thus more likely to actually get the conservatives to raise a fuss - and has a much larger "blast radius" in that if the cults of Thungni and Valaya start feuding then it could cause all sorts of long-term problems.
 
I think the primary source of conflict is that the Valayans would want the forged limbs to be deployed as widely as possibble, whereas the more conservative runesmiths would balk at that due to rule-of-pride shenanigans. And unlike our usual technically-breaking-the-rule ways, this would both be more widespread - and thus more likely to actually get the conservatives to raise a fuss - and has a much larger "blast radius" in that if the cults of Thungni and Valaya start feuding then it could cause all sorts of long-term problems.
Not really - whatever valayans wants and says, responsibility for making runes likes in runemaster who inscribes them. It's his choice, his honor and his actions. Noone else. Any fuss between conservative and radicals would still be fuss between two runesmithing factions within a cult. That would not spill over as conflict between guilds.

Danger appears when runeshmiths disagrees, and someone claims that valayans gathering and 'feeding' commisions to a runesmith counts as interfering with operatio of runeshmith guild/cult. This would start discussions that would linger for hundreds or thousands of years.
 
Forged Limb is told to risk conflict between runestmiths and Valaya cult. It was never clarified how and why it would happen. I tried to think about possible scenarios in context of dwarven culture.

Conflict would likely be caused not bye clash between runesmith and valayans - it would be driven by conflict between runesmiths.

Scenario:
- runesmith A takes commisions and gets paid handsomely for forged limbs
- runesmith B makes agreement with valayans for healing, similar to one Snorri have

Runesmith 'A' is ticked off, because 'B' is poaching his commision. For Snorri comissions are non-issue, but it's important to remember that commisions are precious for typical runesmith. So runeshmith 'A' is upset, and points that valayans are unfairly interfering with him. They are helping 'A' to poach commisions, thus interfering with remit of runesmithing guild.

Accusations of predatory market practices could be a contributing factor but I don't think it would the main thrust of any bad sentiment from the runesmiths' side. Realistically, Snorri's probably done what you describe to a tonne of younger smiths already and nobody's made a problem of it as far as we know. Like take the underway construction as an example, where Snorri put a rune tool into the hands of basically every able-bodied miner in the whole hold. What of the various journeymen who might have had a niche putting runes on pickaxes only to see demand for their services crater overnight, because Snorri "fucking" Gift Giver decided to hand out tools by the hundreds? Nobody's been showed to raise a word of complaint, which leads me to believe market competition rules maybe aren't a huge article of faith for the runesmiths' guild. Smith A in your example might be assmad but that wouldn't be enough in itself for the conclave of runelords to intervene on his behalf.

Generally, I get the feeling runesmiths are supposed by convention to keep themselves apart from dwarfs at large, as far as their work is concerned, and a smith letting people have a peek behind the curtain, even at small inconsequential things, is going to raise hackles in some quarters. Like when Snorri worked on the pure gromril smelter, he kicked out all the non-runesmith workers and did all the runework in solitude except for his apprentices. It would assuredly have been more efficient to apply runes to sections as they finished while the builders worked on other sections of the complex, instead of finishing anything except the runes first and then shutting the whole thing down for two years while the runelord did his part, so why do it like they did? Presumably because traditional runesmith secrecy extends to more than just the physical inscription of runes; things like the way individual runes interact and which rune is contributing what to the overall gromrilsmelting process is also out of bounds. The whole thing is supposed to be as much of a black box as possible to the uninitiated. Dwarfs hate inefficiency unless it is borne of tradition, to paraphrase a soulcake quote I can't be bothered to hunt down at the moment, and this particular inefficiency is covered by the tradition clause.

Now obviously Snorri hasn't been giving the valayans lectures about how the forgelimb rune works, or how it relates to the waking rune family or its likely connection to other cognition effects etc, but just the fact that they've been working closely together with him has necessarily let the priestesses pick up on some small things at the margin. Like in the bit we saw with Moira, for example, where she explains to some guy how the prosthetics can feel weird for some users, especially in a case where the old biological limb was damaged in some way. She doesn't know anything about the processes that operate the rune but she has a deeper understanding of its output than an individual prosthetic user would have, since Snorri's contracted with her to deal with a whole bunch of users and prospective users on his behalf. That peripheral knowledge would be enough in itself, I think, to make some conservative runesmiths antsy.

This problem, if it was a problem, was limited in scope as long as Snorri was the only smith engaging with the valayans in this manner. The moment he starts teaching his rune to other smiths who may or may not strike their own deals with the priestesses, things get messier. This is partly because Snorri is being a bad influence on the youth, as it were, impressing his unconventional (therefore bad) ideas on younger masters, but also because it increases the number of potential points of contact between the two cults. Every smith fraternising with the priestesses increases the risk one of them might let slip something more important, and even various inconsequential pieces of info can, cumulatively, reveal the outline of things runesmiths have kept to themselves. There's another dimension to this too, which kinda touches on your competition thing: if you want a new arm in kraka drakk, you don't go to various runesmiths asking for quotes, but rather to the valayans who will act as intermediaries setting up a deal for you. They have a lot of influence in who gets work orders and who doesn't, which comes uncomfortably close to interfering with the independence of individual smiths but also the guild as a whole. Hovering overtop all this is a big ole slippery slope argument: what if the priestesses start prodding for info about runes related to healing and shelter, so they can do their jobs better? What if Morgrim Crew gets inspired and starts fishing for their own deals on engineering runes and which devices to put them on? This is the sort of thing that can make some runelords mad at the smiths under them, but also the valayans, for knowing things they weren't supposed to know and deciding things they aren't supposed to have a say in.

This whole controversy interrelates with the broader suspicion Snorri might be collectivising, exerting undue influence on other master smiths and so on. It's a whole mess of entanglements between actors who were once tidily separate, and in the middle of it all you'll find Snorri, like a spider in a web. Anyone caremad about some or all of what I've posted about is going to find an obvious first target in him.
 
Thanks for the quote. Though I'm not 100% sure they would fight over it, the messenger/merchant argument was because both wanted to profit from the same thing however the engineers would be one of the main customers for the alchemists. It would be less them fighting for the same market and more the alchemists supplying the engineers. Worst case Snorri just tells the alchemists to stay away from selling anything related to the areas engineers lay claim to.

The rule of pride isn't really an issue for regular runes unless the runesmith is conservative, Snorri alone could easily supply the early alchemists guild and as it grew his apprentices and anyone else he's taught the runes to can help. Worst case scenario the conservatives win the debate and in the future you're limited to 1 alchemist per runesmith (except not really because I'm pretty sure well made and maintained runes last longer than a runesmith). I'm also not sure I see the coordination argument, alchemists commission tools runesmiths make the tools, it would be no different from any other guilds relation with the runesmiths and would be far less problematic than the alternative of carving out an alchemists guild within the runesmiths like some people have been talking about.
They're fighting because dwarfs can be interpreted as both items to be transported and non-monetary trade goods. The Engineers aren't going to like Dwarfs fiddling around with a field that is theirs.

This is going involve Master Runes and combos. Not even Snorri is willing to spam those out willy-nilly. The Runesmiths that this Alchemists Guild hires will have to know the Runes involved. This won't be anywhere near as simple as gromril chain. Of course it is different. Those other Guilds can theorectically exist without the Runesmith's Guild. Where alchemy will always be so intertwined with the Runesmiths, well, why would most Runesmiths not make the machines for themselves, and sell any of the reagants that they don't need?

The most damning piece of evidence against this ever becoming more than a side-hobby for Runesmiths claiming descent from Snorri is that Snorri doesn't do politics, and the sort of politics that come from a new guild would eat up most of our actions for about 50 or so turns.

And I am probably underestimating the timescale.
 
They're fighting because dwarfs can be interpreted as both items to be transported and non-monetary trade goods. The Engineers aren't going to like Dwarfs fiddling around with a field that is theirs.

This is going involve Master Runes and combos. Not even Snorri is willing to spam those out willy-nilly. The Runesmiths that this Alchemists Guild hires will have to know the Runes involved. This won't be anywhere near as simple as gromril chain. Of course it is different. Those other Guilds can theorectically exist without the Runesmith's Guild. Where alchemy will always be so intertwined with the Runesmiths, well, why would most Runesmiths not make the machines for themselves, and sell any of the reagants that they don't need?

The most damning piece of evidence against this ever becoming more than a side-hobby for Runesmiths claiming descent from Snorri is that Snorri doesn't do politics, and the sort of politics that come from a new guild would eat up most of our actions for about 50 or so turns.

And I am probably underestimating the timescale.
I feel like you are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue with the guilds. Imagine a dwarf who wants to travel from point A to point B and he is willing to pay someone to do so. The merchants guild would like to take his money in exchange for providing this service. The messengers guild would also like to take his money in exchange for providing this service. The messengers have the right to transport "non-monetary trade goods," so they argue that the dwarf counts as such. The merchants have the right to transport other goods so they argue that the dwarf does not count as such. Thus is conflict between the guilds born.

Now imagine an engineer invents the car and tries to sell it. Do you think that the two guilds would jump him for daring to consider something related to transporting goods? Because to me it's much more likely they'd just purchase the car and enjoy the increased profits. And if said engineer decided to drive from point A to point B neither guild could stop him because they don't have claim between them to the rights of dwarves to move between two points. As long as they aren't using their new car to transport goods and letters and sell them then neither guild has any right to complain. Similarly if the alchemists guild is supplying the engineers guild and isn't trying to cut into their markets the guild has no right to complain about any chemistry they perform. If they did then the brotherhood of dron would already have been sued into oblivion.

I don't see why you assume alchemy would require master runes and combos. Right now we have two examples of alchemical runes, MPurification and Annealing, one's a master rune which makes sense considering the major effect it's designed to create, the other is just a regular rune creating the kind of effect that would serve as the bread and butter of most alchemical experimentation. As for why runesmiths wouldn't do all the work of alchemy for themselves? The same reason they don't mine their own ore smelt it into bars themselves brew their own beer and grow their own food chop down their own wood and make their own bed from it. Sure you'll get some runesmiths who learn alchemy but a guild would provide far more alchemists who can afford to devote themselves to it rather than being split between it and runesmithing. I've also already pointed out that alchemists could exist without runesmiths.

As for Snorri not doing politics, well he does, he's doing politics right now, and yeh founding a guild would take work though I think you are overselling it. I doubt it would require more than committing 1 turn to training apprentices and 1 turn to handling legal stuff. Ultimately whether he did so would come down to whether we the voters decided he should.
 
It doesn't have to be a new guild either. Snorri could just found another organization like the Brotherhood and treat it like a research club or the brotherhood itself could expand it's remit to cover alchemy as well.
 
I feel like you are fundamentally misunderstanding the issue with the guilds. Imagine a dwarf who wants to travel from point A to point B and he is willing to pay someone to do so. The merchants guild would like to take his money in exchange for providing this service. The messengers guild would also like to take his money in exchange for providing this service. The messengers have the right to transport "non-monetary trade goods," so they argue that the dwarf counts as such. The merchants have the right to transport other goods so they argue that the dwarf does not count as such. Thus is conflict between the guilds born.
Of course the Engineers Guild would sell to the Transport and Merchant's Guild. The issue is Engineers are not Runesmiths. Engineers can "mass produce" items, while Runesmiths flat out won't.

Snorri, and the few Runesmiths he teaches Alchemy to, are not enough to supply the amount of Runed machines that would justify the creation of a Guild.

I assume it will take Master Runes and combos because otherwise we would be able to spam out Alchemy machines which soulcake would not like. We're almost certainly going to have similar limitations with adamant as with alchemy. Mining ore is not equilavent to creating reagents. What is equivalent to creating reagents is the process that creates Adamant. Both the old Brotherhood method, and with MPurification. Both of those were done by Runesmiths and for Runesmiths.

I am not overselling the amount of work founding a guild would take. Jorri has been in a legal battle for literal centuries over the Dwarf transportation issue. And founding a Guild is far, far more work.
 
Accusations of predatory market practices could be a contributing factor but I don't think it would the main thrust of any bad sentiment from the runesmiths' side. Realistically, Snorri's probably done what you describe to a tonne of younger smiths already and nobody's made a problem of it as far as we know. Like take the underway construction as an example, where Snorri put a rune tool into the hands of basically every able-bodied miner in the whole hold. What of the various journeymen who might have had a niche putting runes on pickaxes only to see demand for their services crater overnight, because Snorri "fucking" Gift Giver decided to hand out tools by the hundreds? Nobody's been showed to raise a word of complaint, which leads me to believe market competition rules maybe aren't a huge article of faith for the runesmiths' guild. Smith A in your example might be assmad but that wouldn't be enough in itself for the conclave of runelords to intervene on his behalf.
It's more runesmith cult rather than guild. Term 'market practices' have incorrect conotations there. As for the rest - runelord, and runesmith remit in general. Dawi don't question it.
Generally, I get the feeling runesmiths are supposed by convention to keep themselves apart from dwarfs at large, as far as their work is concerned, and a smith letting people have a peek behind the curtain, even at small inconsequential things, is going to raise hackles in some quarters. Like when Snorri worked on the pure gromril smelter, he kicked out all the non-runesmith workers and did all the runework in solitude except for his apprentices. It would assuredly have been more efficient to apply runes to sections as they finished while the builders worked on other sections of the complex, instead of finishing anything except the runes first and then shutting the whole thing down for two years while the runelord did his part, so why do it like they did? Presumably because traditional runesmith secrecy extends to more than just the physical inscription of runes; things like the way individual runes interact and which rune is contributing what to the overall gromrilsmelting process is also out of bounds. The whole thing is supposed to be as much of a black box as possible to the uninitiated. Dwarfs hate inefficiency unless it is borne of tradition, to paraphrase a soulcake quote I can't be bothered to hunt down at the moment, and this particular inefficiency is covered by the tradition clause.
It is, and it will be no matter what happens with Forged Limb. Secrecy of runes is not in question here. Not the issue.
Now obviously Snorri hasn't been giving the valayans lectures about how the forgelimb rune works, or how it relates to the waking rune family or its likely connection to other cognition effects etc, but just the fact that they've been working closely together with him has necessarily let the priestesses pick up on some small things at the margin. Like in the bit we saw with Moira, for example, where she explains to some guy how the prosthetics can feel weird for some users, especially in a case where the old biological limb was damaged in some way. She doesn't know anything about the processes that operate the rune but she has a deeper understanding of its output than an individual prosthetic user would have, since Snorri's contracted with her to deal with a whole bunch of users and prospective users on his behalf. That peripheral knowledge would be enough in itself, I think, to make some conservative runesmiths antsy.
Regardless of what happens with Forged Limb issue, secrecy of runes is not endangered. And if conservatives disagree with the way rune is used, it's their remit to disagree. But it's again merely typical disagreement between radical and conservatives. Nothing more.
This problem, if it was a problem, was limited in scope as long as Snorri was the only smith engaging with the valayans in this manner. The moment he starts teaching his rune to other smiths who may or may not strike their own deals with the priestesses, things get messier. This is partly because Snorri is being a bad influence on the youth, as it were, impressing his unconventional (therefore bad) ideas on younger masters, but also because it increases the number of potential points of contact between the two cults.
Snorri past or inclination is not the issue. He is deeply respected runelord, and as such worthy of following. Nothing he does is considered 'bad influence' for beardlings.
Every smith fraternising with the priestesses increases the risk one of them might let slip something more important, and even various inconsequential pieces of info can, cumulatively, reveal the outline of things runesmiths have kept to themselves.
You keep returning to that. Runes are secure. Neither Snorri nor other runesmith are stupid, and none will do anything that go against secrecy scriptures of their faith.
There's another dimension to this too, which kinda touches on your competition thing: if you want a new arm in kraka drakk, you don't go to various runesmiths asking for quotes, but rather to the valayans who will act as intermediaries setting up a deal for you. They have a lot of influence in who gets work orders and who doesn't, which comes uncomfortably close to interfering with the independence of individual smiths but also the guild as a whole. Hovering overtop all this is a big ole slippery slope argument: what if the priestesses start prodding for info about runes related to healing and shelter, so they can do their jobs better? What if Morgrim Crew gets inspired and starts fishing for their own deals on engineering runes and which devices to put them on? This is the sort of thing that can make some runelords mad at the smiths under them, but also the valayans, for knowing things they weren't supposed to know and deciding things they aren't supposed to have a say in.
Disagree. Valayans are well-meaning in general. They heal, they help, they protect. They are main faction that does that in Karaz Ankor. They won't get more 'influence' from forged limb than they would get otherwise. And even if it's unlikely in extreme it will be cause of any issues. As for 'Morgrim Crew' fishing for deals - this is what is called commision. Runeshmith can take or refuse them as they please.
This whole controversy interrelates with the broader suspicion Snorri might be collectivising, exerting undue influence on other master smiths and so on. It's a whole mess of entanglements between actors who were once tidily separate, and in the middle of it all you'll find Snorri, like a spider in a web. Anyone caremad about some or all of what I've posted about is going to find an obvious first target in him.
Undue influence? It's called fame and renown. Snorri is not a shady character making equally shady deals and influencing dawi in underhanded way. He is not mastermind. He is 'merely' oldest runelord of North, who earned that possition many times over. Also widely known to be disdainful of politics.
 
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Of course the Engineers Guild would sell to the Transport and Merchant's Guild. The issue is Engineers are not Runesmiths. Engineers can "mass produce" items, while Runesmiths flat out won't.

Snorri, and the few Runesmiths he teaches Alchemy to, are not enough to supply the amount of Runed machines that would justify the creation of a Guild.

I assume it will take Master Runes and combos because otherwise we would be able to spam out Alchemy machines which soulcake would not like. We're almost certainly going to have similar limitations with adamant as with alchemy. Mining ore is not equilavent to creating reagents. What is equivalent to creating reagents is the process that creates Adamant. Both the old Brotherhood method, and with MPurification. Both of those were done by Runesmiths and for Runesmiths.

I am not overselling the amount of work founding a guild would take. Jorri has been in a legal battle for literal centuries over the Dwarf transportation issue. And founding a Guild is far, far more work.
There's a rule about using analogies on the internet, the rule is "Don't" they just end up confusing stuff. I should have listened to the rule. The engineer in the analogy representing the alchemists the messengers/merchants were representing the engineers. My point was the alchemists would be supplying the engineers not competing in the same market so the engineers wouldn't have a reason to cause trouble.

I think the issue with runes is you seem to have a very different idea of what alchemy will be to me. I'm getting the impression you seem to be taking the adamant smelter as the template (Sorry if I'm misunderstanding/misrepresenting your point), with the goal being individualised machines designed to create specific materials. Just chuck the raw materials in turn it on and come back later. If that is all that can be done then yes there's no reason to expand the guild beyond the runesmiths, but that also seems rather inefficient and limiting. While I expect the highest level stuff like adamant will require such machines I see the majority of alchemy being done using tools and combining and processing materials using these tools. So for example maybe you have a bowl that can mix the magic in two different materials smoothly together, maybe you have 8 different tools for adding different winds to the material you're working on and 8 more for removing them, maybe you have an item for ordering the winds within an item or for making them more chaotic, then the job of the alchemist is to apply these tools correctly to different materials to gain the desired output. It would be a lot more work than just shoving it in a machine and turning it on but also infinitely more flexible, allowing alchemists to experiment and create a wide range of different materials without requiring the runesmiths to create a whole new master rune each time, and the tools themselves should be simple enough to only require basic runes. Plus as we've seen this is a process that can be done without runes, nobody runed the healing water spring or the azrilwut grove, so this provides an important area of study for this guild which is entirely unreliant on runes.

As for the legal issues of founding a guild I expect Jorri's issues to be much more long winded than creating a guild as they are combatative so both sides are fighting the other and dragging the whole thing out, creating a guild to explore a new area no-one has laid claim to is likely to be a lot simpler though it will probably drag on for centuries it should be noted Jorri's legal dispute didn't prevent him from building a highly successful mercantile empire, clearly it's not a giant black hole sucking up all his time. I wouldn't be surprised if after enough turns it just became a background thing that doesn't take up time, I'd really expect the main time sink to be training apprentices for the new guild.
 
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There's a rule about using analogies on the internet, the rule is "Don't" they just end up confusing stuff. I should have listened to the rule. The engineer in the analogy representing the alchemists the messengers/merchants were representing the engineers. My point was the alchemists would be supplying the engineers not competing in the same market so the engineers wouldn't have a reason to cause trouble.
The Engineers would probably still fight the creation because of their chemistry subset, because they would probably want this 'mundane' alchemy that magic-resistant dwarfs will not be able to do.

I do not see any reason why a Dwarf would be able to do alchemy without Runic machines. Dwarfs actively resist the Winds of Magic, unlike humans, elves or whatever. And magic is a pretty important part of alchemy. Azrilwut and Valaya's Curative Springs or whatever took magic in order to transform them.

Do you know what Dwarves are notorious for? Not using magic and, infact, actively resisting it. Runes are the only method any non-Chaos Dwarf will be able to do alchemy. Because of that, the Alchemists Guild can't really grow, at all. They would have more Dwarfs than tools. Well, on the other hand, you try to recruit Dwarfs to meddle with magic. >_>

Also, Snorri himself expects that it will require machines along hthe lines of the Adamant Smelter. It says so right in the damn option.
[-] Akazit: [Cost: 10 actions] Journeyman of the Odd will proc. Locked due to Lack of Knowledge about Alchemy. Manipulating the fundamental essence of a material is one not taken lightly. Runes will be necessary, but this was uncharted territory for you. It will be long, laborious and likely rife with dead-ends, but the results? Your mind sees great machines like your Adamant Smelter, churning out materials with desired esoteric qualities, and with a level of consistency among them matched only by the Runes used to make them. A lofty dream, one you may possibly dedicate your whole life to and still fall short of, but the rewards… Well, nothing worth doing is done quickly.

You recall telling Jorri that this sounded like something that required a new guild altogether, but the withering glare he sent your way was enough to shut down that avenue of discussion.

The current legal troubles were stonefruit seeds compared to the legal hellscape that came with the founding of a new guild.
Read this. Did Snorri add a clarifier that said, a new guild related to items that are currently being argued over? The answer to that question is no. He said a new guild, as in general. This lawsuit undoubtedly takes up an ugly percentage of Jorri's time and founding a Guild would take even more.

Transporting dwarfs takes up a fair amount of Jorri's business. Snorri will not need an Alchemist guild in the least. Jorri stands to gain from the legal battle, while any and all time we spend in the 'legal hellscape' consumes crafting and research time. Besides, this will assuredly require us to travel to Karaz-a-karak, due to its nature as capital, meaning that the legal battles will always cut into our time.

The furthest I see alchemy going is Snorri founding a Brotherhood of Karag Dron-esque society of Runesmiths who poke at alchemy and grumble about how unreliable magic is.
 
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Oh wow I missed a ton of great stuff.

Especially happy with how the Chain turned out.

[X][Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [X] Stringent: Only the most skilled, the most alike with your own thoughts and beliefs. 8 Of the two dozen will be taught.

[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)

I am all for sharing, as long as it is at a steady and secure pace. Let us not rush, that would be unbecoming of a Runelord.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)


[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.
 
[X] [Chain]: Wait until Rhunkalbrogg. (Turn 41)
[x] [Masters]: Teach them the Rune of Forged Limb
- [x] Middling: Teach those you consider reasonably sure to use and spread the rune as you do. 18 Of the two dozen will be taught.

A passing thought: I think Snorri's thinking about the Master Rune of Forgeflame backwards. Removing the heat from its surroundings can be disruptive (and it is for all the stuff we've done with it so far)... but it also makes it a very effective heat pump. A workshop that redirects any waste heat into a thermal energy storage system next door sounds very useful for saving on fuel and exotic heat sources.
 
The Engineers would probably still fight the creation because of their chemistry subset, because they would probably want this 'mundane' alchemy that magic-resistant dwarfs will not be able to do.

I do not see any reason why a Dwarf would be able to do alchemy without Runic machines. Dwarfs actively resist the Winds of Magic, unlike humans, elves or whatever. And magic is a pretty important part of alchemy. Azrilwut and Valaya's Curative Springs or whatever took magic in order to transform them.

Do you know what Dwarves are notorious for? Not using magic and, infact, actively resisting it. Runes are the only method any non-Chaos Dwarf will be able to do alchemy. Because of that, the Alchemists Guild can't really grow, at all. They would have more Dwarfs than tools. Well, on the other hand, you try to recruit Dwarfs to meddle with magic. >_>

Also, Snorri himself expects that it will require machines along hthe lines of the Adamant Smelter. It says so right in the damn option.



Read this. Did Snorri add a clarifier that said, a new guild related to items that are currently being argued over? The answer to that question is no. He said a new guild, as in general. This lawsuit undoubtedly takes up an ugly percentage of Jorri's time and founding a Guild would take even more.

Transporting dwarfs takes up a fair amount of Jorri's business. Snorri will not need an Alchemist guild in the least. Jorri stands to gain from the legal battle, while any and all time we spend in the 'legal hellscape' consumes crafting and research time. Besides, this will assuredly require us to travel to Karaz-a-karak, due to its nature as capital, meaning that the legal battles will always cut into our time.

The furthest I see alchemy going is Snorri founding a Brotherhood of Karag Dron-esque society of Runesmiths who poke at alchemy and grumble about how unreliable magic is.
Dwarves are perfectly happy to use runic tools to do stuff, see every runic tool everywhere. They are also more than happy to use magic things, see all the odd places materials dwarves happily use. Are you really suggesting they'd refuse to use magic things made by runic tools? I also don't put much stock in Snorri's current idea of what alchemy will consist of, he is not omniscient, he used to think making gromril chain was impossible without adamant. His current goal is machines for specific ingredients because that is the extent of his current interaction with alchemy, once he understands the fundamental principles behind it it would make a lot more sense to build specific tools to interact with those principles rather than custom building machines for everything.

I also strongly disagree with your assertion that Snorri gains nothing from founding an alchemists guild, it would tie very well into his commitment last chapter to build a foundation for future dawi to build on, alchemists essentially give dwarves a second method of accessing and interacting with magic whilst also strengthening the runesmiths guild.
 
Dwarves are perfectly happy to use runic tools to do stuff, see every runic tool everywhere. They are also more than happy to use magic things, see all the odd places materials dwarves happily use. Are you really suggesting they'd refuse to use magic things made by runic tools? I also don't put much stock in Snorri's current idea of what alchemy will consist of, he is not omniscient, he used to think making gromril chain was impossible without adamant. His current goal is machines for specific ingredients because that is the extent of his current interaction with alchemy, once he understands the fundamental principles behind it it would make a lot more sense to build specific tools to interact with those principles rather than custom building machines for everything.

I also strongly disagree with your assertion that Snorri gains nothing from founding an alchemists guild, it would tie very well into his commitment last chapter to build a foundation for future dawi to build on, alchemists essentially give dwarves a second method of accessing and interacting with magic whilst also strengthening the runesmiths guild.
I do not know how you manage to keep on misinterpreting what I am saying. Runes =/= magic. Runes can use magic, yes. But Dwarfs are not Runes. Dwarfs cannot use magic in the way that alchemy requires. I am saying that they would refuse to use magic (which, by the way, is limited to Chaos Dwarfs). Oh, and even if loyal members of Karaz Ankor did use magic, it would eventually turn them to stone.

Those specific tools, which I doubt will exist, will have to use Runes. Because Dwarfs cannot use magic.

It is hardly worth spending several centuries politicking at Karaz-a-karak.
 
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