Remove ads

Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

Reader mode
NSMS said:
I still prefer the idea that magic confers a resistance to non-magical attacks, but that is an interesting theory.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I did always figure that Wally was resistant to physical attacks, one more reason Homu couldn't win. I've always thought that the whole Mitakihara team+Kyoko could have defeated Walpurgisnacht, but Homura refused to try to unite them after the 3rd timeline. It works well with her general running theme of failure: she had all the tools she needed to win, but because she kept trying to do it alone, rather than working with Mami and Sayaka when she had the chance, she was doomed to failure.
AuraTwilight said:
Homura can't beat Walpurgis because she couldn't the first time. She wished to protect Madoka. She didn't wish to save her, or change her future. Whenever you reach 12 on a clock, it always goes back to one. Homura cannot advance. She froze herself at the moment that defines her now as Homura Akemi, and that Homura cannot change her original failure.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
It seems to me that Homura is actually capable of changing the future, it's just that she fails to beat Walpurgis. I prefer to blame it on her inability to work with others rather that just "fate".
 
In the videogame (however canon you consider that) it is possible to bend it into a good ending homura wants, without having to resort to madokami or other trickery, or even madoka contracting. But, IIRC, you have to have, by the time wally runs around Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko and yourself (homura) all alive, stable, working together well and (i think) lich and witchbombed and stable despite that. Then you can beat walpurgis with no deaths and madoka surviving uncontracted.

So if the game is actual possibilities, it would be possible to get a golden ending conventionally. Just really fucking hard.
 
Xexilf said:
In the videogame (however canon you consider that) it is possible to bend it into a good ending homura wants, without having to resort to madokami or other trickery, or even madoka contracting. But, IIRC, you have to have, by the time wally runs around Mami, Sayaka, Kyoko and yourself (homura) all alive, stable, working together well and (i think) lich and witchbombed and stable despite that. Then you can beat walpurgis with no deaths and madoka surviving uncontracted.

So if the game is actual possibilities, it would be possible to get a golden ending conventionally. Just really fucking hard.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That ending is the worst one to me, because it is most definitely a temporary peace. Eventually, other shit's going to go wrong. Kyubey's not going to give up just because Walpurgis passed. Madoka isn't out of the contract woods until she's an adult, so it's four years or more of Homura shepherding her around, trying to hold everything together when she can't possibly do so, because the Puella Magi system does not allow happy endings.

And then, when everything goes to shit, Homura will have to dredge herself up from that period of happiness and go right back to the beginning of the first month. It's psychological torture.

Honestly, the only good end possible (from canon material) is for Madoka to make her gamebreaking wish.
 
Gadjo said:
I did always figure that Wally was resistant to physical attacks, one more reason Homu couldn't win. I've always thought that the whole Mitakihara team+Kyoko could have defeated Walpurgisnacht, but Homura refused to try to unite them after the 3rd timeline. It works well with her general running theme of failure: she had all the tools she needed to win, but because she kept trying to do it alone, rather than working with Mami and Sayaka when she had the chance, she was doomed to failure.

It seems to me that Homura is actually capable of changing the future, it's just that she fails to beat Walpurgis. I prefer to blame it on her inability to work with others rather that just "fate".
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I always liked the idea that Walpurgis losing to Madoka was its own will. It's the Stage-Constructing Witch. "She will continue to rotate aimlessly throughout the world until she completely changes the whole of this age into a drama." It looks at Madoka and finds that a selfless sacrifice against all odds makes for a good death. When Madoka died rather than let the rampage continue, Walpurgis could have pushed through the injury, but instead sort of... gave up. It had turned the world into a drama, the drama of the unlikely valiant hero who gave her life to defeat a force incomprehensibly greater than she, and it didn't mind perishing.

As for why it doesn't do the same for Homura? Well, we know from HN Elly that witches can read their victims to some degree. Perhaps Walpurgis sees in Homura the potential for a more interesting tragedy, and hence, refuses to die just yet.

Or I could be talking completely out of my arse and it really is just a matter of vulnerabilities.
 
JDite said:
That ending is the worst one to me, because it is most definitely a temporary peace. Eventually, other shit's going to go wrong. Kyubey's not going to give up just because Walpurgis passed. Madoka isn't out of the contract woods until she's an adult, so it's four years or more of Homura shepherding her around, trying to hold everything together when she can't possibly do so, because the Puella Magi system does not allow happy endings.

And then, when everything goes to shit, Homura will have to dredge herself up from that period of happiness and go right back to the beginning of the first month. It's psychological torture.

Honestly, the only good end possible (from canon material) is for Madoka to make her gamebreaking wish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I dunno- without the immediate 'your city is going to die' danger I can see Homura pulling that off. Especially with the help and support of other meguca.
 
Mister Bad Guy said:
I always liked the idea that Walpurgis losing to Madoka was its own will. It's the Stage-Constructing Witch. "She will continue to rotate aimlessly throughout the world until she completely changes the whole of this age into a drama." It looks at Madoka and finds that a selfless sacrifice against all odds makes for a good death. When Madoka died rather than let the rampage continue, Walpurgis could have pushed through the injury, but instead sort of... gave up. It had turned the world into a drama, the drama of the unlikely valiant hero who gave her life to defeat a force incomprehensibly greater than she, and it didn't mind perishing.

As for why it doesn't do the same for Homura? Well, we know from HN Elly that witches can read their victims to some degree. Perhaps Walpurgis sees in Homura the potential for a more interesting tragedy, and hence, refuses to die just yet.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I like this idea. I always thought it was odd that Original Timeline Madoka defeated Whataburger on her own.
 
JDite said:
Honestly, the only good end possible (from canon material) is for Madoka to make her gamebreaking wish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Im not quite as negative, but on that point, i always think there has to be something better she could have wished for than that. Its selfless, but assuming for one moment a care about personal happiness to, theres may be better ones than "kill every witch in every world with my own hands".
 
NSMS said:
I dunno- without the immediate 'your city is going to die' danger I can see Homura pulling that off. Especially with the help and support of other meguca.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Kyubey is smarter than Homura, though, especially when she doesn't have the advantage of Groundhog Day-ing the past month for twelve years. Four years is an extremely long time relative to the lifespan of a meguca. Going in blind against Kyubs, who still wants Madoka to contract like burning, seems likely to fail. To me, at least.
 
JDite said:
I like this idea. I always thought it was odd that Original Timeline Madoka defeated Whataburger on her own.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I never was of the opinion that she did. She's just lying there in the rubble. After all, Wally doesn't move to kill Homura in the final timeline, and there's no reason it would have had to move to kill her in the first one. I assumed the whole "Rather you had lived than saved me" speech was a reference to some sacrifice Madoka made to protect Homura until Wally had passed. Otherwise, it doesn't make any sense that they can't beat wally if loop one Madoka can. I guess your "wanted to die" theory accounts for that, but I've never ascribed quite that much sentience to witches.
 
JDite said:
That ending is the worst one to me, because it is most definitely a temporary peace. Eventually, other shit's going to go wrong. Kyubey's not going to give up just because Walpurgis passed. Madoka isn't out of the contract woods until she's an adult, so it's four years or more of Homura shepherding her around, trying to hold everything together when she can't possibly do so, because the Puella Magi system does not allow happy endings.

And then, when everything goes to shit, Homura will have to dredge herself up from that period of happiness and go right back to the beginning of the first month. It's psychological torture.

Honestly, the only good end possible (from canon material) is for Madoka to make her gamebreaking wish.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

I remember @TheOneMoiderah once wrote a fic called Epilogue about a Homura that won which was extremely depressing. One thing you really have to remember is just how much of her life Homura has spent in that same month and a half, reliving the same traumas over and over again. She ends up pretty much unable to adjust to the post-timeline world. Plus, being a Urobuchi Moid fic, she never even gets the girl in the end. So yeah, WPN is hardly the end of 'being meguca is suffering' for Homu.
 
JDite said:
Kyubey is smarter than Homura, though, especially when she doesn't have the advantage of Groundhog Day-ing the past month for twelve years. Four years is an extremely long time relative to the lifespan of a meguca. Going in blind against Kyubs, who still wants Madoka to contract like burning, seems likely to fail. To me, at least.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If nothing else, by that point telling Madoka the truth about meguca contracts is on the table. To say nothing of telling her about the timeloops. At that point there's no looming overwhelming disaster to force Madoka to contract, and Madoka knowing exactly what she'd be getting into by contracting is a definite possibility. So whilst I wouldn't say Homura is guaranteed to succeed at that point, I would say she does have a decent chance of pulling it off.
 
aeqnai said:
I remember @TheOneMoiderah once wrote a fic called Epilogue about a Homura that won which was extremely depressing. One thing you really have to remember is just how much of her life Homura has spent in that same month and a half, reliving the same traumas over and over again. She ends up pretty much unable to adjust to the post-timeline world. Plus, being a Urobuchi Moid fic, she never even gets the girl in the end. So yeah, WPN is hardly the end of 'being meguca is suffering' for Homu.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Shit. I should probably update that.

Also, I sincerely wish people would stop tagging me. It makes me feel like I actually have an obligation to respond. And also this is off-topic.
 
Last edited:
Interesting stuff about Wally there.

On another note, just to keep it in mind, what important talks we need to have in the future?

- Lichbomb with Sayaka & Madoka;
- We haven't quite been a good friend to Mami;
- Apologize to Kirika for threatening her with a fate worse than death?;
- ?
 
Onmur said:
Interesting stuff about Wally there.

On another note, just to keep it in mind, what important talks we need to have in the future?

- Lichbomb with Sayaka & Madoka;
- We haven't quite been a good friend to Mami;
- Apologize to Kirika for threatening her with a fate worse than death?;
- ?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Witchbomb with Mami. I know that flat out telling her about it is a bad idea, but we need to bring it up somehow at some point. Even if it's just something like 'I know something Kyuubey's been keeping from you, but I haven't told you because the last thing I did traumatised you so badly' and then beg her not to ask us to tell her.
 
NSMS said:
Witchbomb with Mami. I know that flat out telling her about it is a bad idea, but we need to bring it up somehow at some point. Even if it's just something like 'I know something Kyuubey's been keeping from you, but I haven't told you because the last thing I did traumatised you so badly' and then beg her not to ask us to tell her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I so thought we had done that at some point. Quite a surprise when it was brought up and it resulted that no, we didn't.
 
NSMS said:
Witchbomb with Mami. I know that flat out telling her about it is a bad idea, but we need to bring it up somehow. Even if it's just something like 'I know something Kyuubey's been keeping from you, but I haven't told you because the last thing I did traumatised you so badly' and then beg her not to ask her to tell her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
That has a very bad implication of 'you aren't strong enough, Mami,' though. We really should be the one to tell her, and I think it should happen before absolutely necessary, because letting her know in the middle of a high stress situation is a Bad Idea.

Not that witchbomb discussions are especially relevant to the current vote, of course.
 
Onmur said:
I so thought we had done that at some point. Quite a surprise when it was brought up and it resulted that no, we didn't.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Just like all that other stuff we totally thought we did *points to giant To-Do List in one-point font stretching across an entire wall in the War Room*
 
JDite said:
That has a very bad implication of 'you aren't strong enough, Mami,' though. We really should be the one to tell her, and I think it should happen before absolutely necessary, because letting her know in the middle of a high stress situation is a Bad Idea.

Not that witchbomb discussions are especially relevant to the current vote, of course.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah- there's really no good way to bring it up. She's going to find out eventually, but telling her without either shattering her faith in Sabrina, destroying her self-confidence (more than we already have), or sending her into meguca-murder mode? Tricky.
 
NSMS said:
Witchbomb with Mami. I know that flat out telling her about it is a bad idea, but we need to bring it up somehow at some point. Even if it's just something like 'I know something Kyuubey's been keeping from you, but I haven't told you because the last thing I did traumatised you so badly' and then beg her not to ask us to tell her.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We do need to do that, but not until she's got some higher self-esteem and a healthier self-image. The issue with telling her right now is that most of her self image, her life, has been based around being a magical girl and that she had helped others by becoming one. That's why learning that it was all a lie broke her in the show. She might survive it now, but if you think you've seen Limpet!Mami, you haven't seen anything until you've seen Mami witchbombed, with nothing other than Sabrina to cling to for purpose. That's one of the many reasons she needs more friends, and perhaps some of our meta information (dewitchification would be an enormous step towards giving her a purpose, as we could have a shot at ending the system that way).
 
Gadjo said:
We do need to do that, but not until she's got some higher self-esteem and a healthier self-image. The issue with telling her right now is that most of her self image, her life, has been based around being a magical girl and that she had helped others by becoming one. That's why learning that it was all a lie broke her in the show. She might survive it now, but if you think you've seen Limpet!Mami, you haven't seen anything until you've seen Mami witchbombed, with nothing other than Sabrina to cling to for purpose. That's one of the many reasons she needs more friends, and perhaps some of our meta information (dewitchification would be an enormous step towards giving her a purpose, as we could have a shot at ending the system that way).
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yup. Like I said in the post above this, there's no good way to tell her.
 
thagguy said:
She gets sort of a bad rap for this. The example that we see in canon was a really, really bad situation, even by the standards of Witchbomb. She will always take it hard, but she can be walked through it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah, I'm not really too worried about provoking the murder-suicide reaction at this point. I'm worried it will make her unhealthy attachment to us into a Homura-level obsession, as she doesn't really have an identity for herself other than someone who saves innocents from witches. That's why I proposed the metaknowledge (some of it, anyway) as we could help her find a purpose beyond that.
 
GiftOfLove said:
We can always just go, "hey kyuubi, what happens when our gem fills up with grief?" And let him take the rap on it.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Tricky- we'd need an IC reason to ask that, and an excuse for why we didn't know it before (given what we've already revealed of our knowldege). Plus, long-term it'd probably come up at some point that we did know, which would damage Mami's faith in us.
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top