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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Ugolino said:
...It's Oriko. Kicking out is just asking for her to show up later as part of a convoluted scheme that racks up a body count.

If we confront her and she admits to attempted murder, refuses demands to explain herself/stop attacking people we're trying to keep alive, and shows every sign of continuing to do it, we're playing dice with the cast to not simply take her out of the equation right there.
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Even Mami would've taken her out under those conditions. I'm saying we shouldn't become murderers without some real justification to do so. As of now, we don't. Not even with this. A confrontation needs to happen, I agree. Beyond that, it's really a matter of just how suicidal Oriko is.

If nothing else, we need to make it clear this kind of thing really needs to stop. We should have done this after Hitomi, if only to learn what Oriko's playing at.
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We wouldn't have had any support if we confronted Oriko with just the Hitomi incident. Homura would've been preoccupied with Madoka and Mami would just look at us as if we had a few screws loose. Confronting Oriko alone is just asking for trouble.
 
Muramasa said:
Even Mami would've taken her out under those conditions. I'm saying we shouldn't become murderers without some real justification to do so. As of now, we don't. Not even with this. A confrontation needs to happen, I agree. Beyond that, it's really a matter of just how suicidal Oriko is.



We wouldn't have had any support if we confronted Oriko with just the Hitomi incident. Homura would've been preoccupied with Madoka and Mami would just look at us as if we had a few screws loose. Confronting Oriko alone is just asking for trouble.
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...If she did set fire to an associate's house, that's attempted murder, and probably enough to excuse it in the heat of the moment. Not that I think we're going to kill her right now, or that we could, but it'd be forgivable. Barely.

We'd have confronted Oriko alone for the Hitomi incident- as we kind of tried to.

Regardless, I'm in favor of taking drastic measures before someone on our "keep alive" list actually gets killed and we're getting too close for comfort for us not to plan for a worst case scenario. Oriko's already left the list of "people we want to keep alive for a good end" and is rapidly moving onto "get rid of her before she can kill people" along with the laundry list of Witches we know about.
 
Ugolino said:
...If she did set fire to an associate's house, that's attempted murder, and probably enough to excuse it in the heat of the moment. Not that I think we're going to kill her right now, or that we could, but it'd be forgivable. Barely.
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I disagree. Strongly.

If we went that route, I'd say Sabrina's role in the loop would be pretty much over. Whatever intentions you had with that, you really would alienate everyone. Except maybe Homu.

We'd have confronted Oriko alone for the Hitomi incident- as we kind of tried to.
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Well, it's proven that we'd just be playing Oriko's game with that option. It's proving to be pretty dangerous confronting her alone.

Regardless, I'm in favor of taking drastic measures before someone on our "keep alive" list actually gets killed and we're getting too close for comfort for us not to plan for a worst case scenario. Oriko's already left the list of "people we want to keep alive for a good end" and is rapidly moving onto "get rid of her before she can kill people" along with the laundry list of Witches we know about.
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And I'm against turning Sabrina into Homu 2.0 or Kiritsugu Emiya. Whichever you prefer. If there's another option to neutralize Oriko without turning us into murderers, I'd much prefer to take that. If we have to put her in a hospital for the duration of the loop or seperate her from her soul gem or find some other way of dissuading her from meddling further then I'm going to support that over murdering in cold blood.
 
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Muramasa said:
I disagree. Strongly.

If we went that route, I'd say Sabrina's role in the loop would be pretty much over. Whatever intentions you had with that, you really would alienate everyone. Except maybe Homu.



Well, it's proven that we'd just be playing Oriko's game with that option. It's proving to be pretty dangerous confronting her alone.



And I'm against turning Sabrina into Homu 2.0 or Kiritsugu Emiya. Whichever you prefer. If there's another option to neutralize Oriko without turning us into murderers, I'd much prefer to take that. If we have to put her in a hospital for the duration of the loop or seperate her from her soul gem or find some other way of dissuading her from meddling further then I'm going to support that over murdering in cold blood.
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If soul gem separation until post-Walpurisnight is a viable option, I'm all for it- but a hospital is still too much of a loose end for an irredeemably hostile Oriko that's going full Oriko Magica on us.

Oriko opposing Sabrina and being the antagonist is one thing, and murder's not really on the table for something like that, but going after the rest of the cast, let alone the ones guaranteed to be in the most danger, means she's a problem we really can't afford if a worst case scenario is true.
 
Muramasa said:
And I'm against turning Sabrina into Homu 2.0 or Kiritsugu Emiya. Whichever you prefer. If there's another option to neutralize Oriko without turning us into murderers, I'd much prefer to take that. If we have to put her in a hospital for the duration of the loop or seperate her from her soul gem or find some other way of dissuading her from meddling further then I'm going to support that over murdering in cold blood.
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Injuries can be healed, soul gems can be stolen back, and if she pulls something like this again, we might not be able to respond in time. I consider it highly likely that she's dropped people we care about in potentially deadly situations twice now, and see no particular reason to take the risks involved in shutting her down nonlethally.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
Injuries can be healed, soul gems can be stolen back, and if she pulls something like this again, we might not be able to respond in time. I consider it highly likely that she's dropped people we care about in potentially deadly situations twice now, and see no particular reason to take the risks involved in shutting her down nonlethally.
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Assuming a worst case scenario, which is looking more and more the case with the way she's been escalating- but isn't confirmed.
 
Ugolino said:
If soul gem separation until post-Walpurisnight is a viable option, I'm all for it- but a hospital is still too much of a loose end for an irredeemably hostile Oriko that's going full Oriko Magica on us.

Oriko opposing Sabrina and being the antagonist is one thing, and murder's not really on the table for something like that, but going after the rest of the cast, let alone the ones guaranteed to be in the most danger, means she's a problem we really can't afford if a worst case scenario is true.
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Then we work with Mami and Homura to come up with a permanent solution. I'm not going to vote to preserve a loop by becoming the villain. And that's what going murderface will do. It wouldn't be possible to trust Sabrina (whose apparently unstable enough to kill people in the heat of the moment) anymore with anything.

FlatlineAskari said:
Injuries can be healed, soul gems can be stolen back, and if she pulls something like this again, we might not be able to respond in time. I consider it highly likely that she's dropped people we care about in potentially deadly situations twice now, and see no particular reason to take the risks involved in shutting her down nonlethally.
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Find a way to do it that isn't in cold blood and I might consider it.
 
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Eh hem. We steal her soul gem, bury it in concrete, and purify it once a week. Problem solved.
 
Muramasa said:
Find a way to do it that isn't in cold blood and I might consider it.
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I see only two ways to get confirmation before we start shooting. One is to wait. She'll pull something like this again; maybe she'll take somebody out, maybe not. Maybe we'll catch them redhanded, get incontrovertible evidence, maybe not.
The other is to confront her. Thanks to her powerset, this exposes us. We need backup; this exposes anyone else our backup might otherwise be covering. Maybe we get a confession, maybe we get waxed cryptic at.
jacobplm said:
Eh hem. We steal her soul gem, bury it in concrete, and purify it once a week. Problem solved.
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She has at least one minion we can't take alone, more than capable of extracting the gem. Also, she'll probably go absolutely stoatfucking psychotic once we complete step one. If we can complete step one.
 
Kirika's powerset has changed and Firn's already said we have a shot against her if it came to that.

edit: Going by Sabrina's own powerset, Kirika really shouldn't be able to sneak up on us with our grief senses and going melee could go either way right now.
 
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FlatlineAskari said:
She has at least one minion we can't take alone, more than capable of extracting the gem. Also, she'll probably go absolutely stoatfucking psychotic once we complete step one. If we can complete step one.
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Hence why we take Kirika out first. How much heat is required to destroy/damage a soul gem, do you think? Because I would LOVE to see how a soul gem melts, and whether the material therin could be reshaped into something else. I was thinking a lamp.
 
Muramasa said:
Kirika's powerset has changed and Firn's already said we have a shot against her if it came to that.

edit: Going by Sabrina's own powerset, Kirika really shouldn't be able to sneak up on us with our grief senses and going melee could go either way right now.
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So, basically, once we've taken the proposed course of action - which will definitely make Oriko, Kirika, and anyone else they happen to have on their side want to kill us very badly, and will only effectively kill Oriko - we'll have 'a shot' at surviving the subsequent attack. How very reassuring.
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jacobplm said:
Hence why we take Kirika out first. How much heat is required to destroy/damage a soul gem, do you think? Because I would LOVE to see how a soul gem melts, and whether the material therin could be reshaped into something else. I was thinking a lamp.
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...
 
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FlatlineAskari said:
So, basically, once we've taken the proposed course of action - which will definitely make Oriko, Kirika, and anyone else they happen to have on their side want to kill us very badly, and will only effectively kill Oriko - we'll have 'a shot' at surviving the subsequent attack. How very reassuring.
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You guys are the ones who want to go full murderface. Not me. That's a consequence you'll have to deal with.

Anyway, yes we have a shot. We'll probably have a better one if we start training and developing methods to counter Kirika. Assuming circumstances force us to face Kirika alone. She doesn't have the same timehax as before. Fighting her isn't impossible. It wasn't then. It's not now.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
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What, worried the melted down soul of a magical girl wouldn't make a good lamp? Pshaw, we can always SCIENCE her grief seed into a better lamp then. Hell, maybe a toaster, too.


Muramasa said:
You guys are the ones who want to go full murderface. Not me. That's a consequence you'll have to deal with.

Anyway, yes we have a shot. We'll probably have a better one if we start training and developing methods to counter Kirika. Assuming circumstances force us to face Kirika alone. She doesn't have the same timehax as before. Fighting her isn't impossible. It wasn't then. It's not now.
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I advocate capturing them and using them for SCIENCE, instead of full murder, actually. Such as trying to hybridize witches with magical girls by grafting witch parts onto them. Oooh, or transplanting a bit of Oriko's brain into Kirika's, see if some of the precog carries over. What with advanced magical girl healing, this should be entirely possible.


Note: I am kidding. Even I am not THIS obsessed with SCIENCE. Though these would be interesting things to find/test out...
 
Muramasa said:
You guys are the ones who want to go full murderface. Not me. That's a consequence you'll have to deal with.

Anyway, yes we have a shot. We'll probably have a better one if we start training and developing methods to counter Kirika. Assuming circumstances force us to face Kirika alone. She doesn't have the same timehax as before. Fighting her isn't impossible. It wasn't then. It's not now.
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I'm talking about soul separation. It has all the downsides of murder (permanently deprives a fellow mage of a body, if all goes according to plan - rezzing somebody who now definitely wants us dead would be unbelievably stupid; seriously squicks our allies, if we can't convince them of the need; makes her surviving allies very, very angry) but lacks the upside (definitely, certainly, absolutely taking Oriko out of the picture forever).
 
FlatlineAskari said:
I'm talking about soul separation. It has all the downsides of murder (permanently deprives a fellow mage of a body, if all goes according to plan - rezzing somebody who now definitely wants us dead would be unbelievably stupid; seriously squicks our allies, if we can't convince them of the need; makes her surviving allies very, very angry) but lacks the upside (definitely, certainly, absolutely taking Oriko out of the picture forever).
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You forgot the LichBomb.

My position is that I'd rather kill her outright or permanently remove her from play than lose any of the cast members because it's part of her plan and we can't stop her from going ahead with it.

It's not at that point yet, but if things continue in that direction, do we really want to risk it? Dead Sayaka or Hitomi are an instant Madoka contract. Dead Madoka is a Homu-loop. Dead Homu is we're screwed, and dead Mami speaks for itself.
 
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FlatlineAskari said:
I'm talking about soul separation. It has all the downsides of murder (permanently deprives a fellow mage of a body, if all goes according to plan - rezzing somebody who now definitely wants us dead would be unbelievably stupid; seriously squicks our allies, if we can't convince them of the need; makes her surviving allies very, very angry) but lacks the upside (definitely, certainly, absolutely taking Oriko out of the picture forever).
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That just adds to the list of reasons why cold blooded murder (or even the appearance of/ soul gem seperation etc) is really just a bad move. There's no way we can pull it off without there being serious and probably irrevocable consequences. Assuming we'd be able to pull it off and assuming the quest can continue if we do so, the dynamics would be permanently and drastically altered and I see no possible good end if you pursue it.
 
Muramasa said:
That just adds to the list of reasons why cold blooded murder (or even the appearance of/ soul gem seperation etc) is really just a bad move. There's no way we can pull it off without there being serious and probably irrevocable consequences. Assuming we'd be able to pull it off and assuming the quest can continue if we do so, the dynamics would be permanently and drastically altered and I see no possible good end if you pursue it.
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So ... you have an alternative? Ideally one that doesn't boil down to 'hope she doesn't get lucky and kill anybody we care about'?
 
Muramasa said:
That just adds to the list of reasons why cold blooded murder (or even the appearance of/ soul gem seperation etc) is really just a bad move. There's no way we can pull it off without there being serious and probably irrevocable consequences. Assuming we'd be able to pull it off and assuming the quest can continue if we do so, the dynamics would be permanently and drastically altered and I see no possible good end if you pursue it.
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It's a drastic step and so is soul gem separation&putting Oriko's body on ice for a few weeks, but I'd argue that given the choice between that and losing any of the cast...
 
I think people are too quick to assume Oriko wanted to hurt any of them. She's a precog. If she wanted Hitomi, Mami, or Sayaka dead then they wouldn't be alive. If she did set Sayaka's house on fire she could just have easily murdered her directly. She could have also arranged for Mami to die to the darkness witch just by ensuring Homura was tied up somewhere and couldn't provide light. Hitomi likewise it might have been easier to kill than just seriously break a bone.

I don't think Oriko has intended to kill a cast member yet at all. If she was trying they'd be dead. Especially Sayaka.
 
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