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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Can't write votes from my phone. Can barely quote posts, actually, half the time it breaks the reply box.

And we have evidence of what happens earlier in the quest when the SG is too far away. Homura accidentally took our gem too far. During that time we were blanked out until she brought it back. If we actually pull their gems far enough they won't be able to see anything or to telepathy. I did acknowledge that they'd get off a warning, though.
 
With Akiko being tipped off that we're on to her, she may push to strike immediately, damn the consequences since her window of opportunity (if you can call it that) is quickly evaporating.
 
'Lement said:
@NSMS:
Single gem may have decades of grief, yes, but that is not as meaningful when 1# reason for meguca deaths is grief spiral or accidential death, not running out of seeds (as evidenced by the ...what, 24x burden on UG?). I wager it is so rare that the increased magic usage(due magic being plentiful) (and thus grief accumulation) would easily outweight it. That said, I do see lifespan increasing because of less stressful lives leading to less spirals - and I am not convinced Kyubey can figure it out quickly, given his repeated comments of not understanding humans and due humans being hard to predict.

Anyway, if the magical girl(where anyone can contract) system becomes publicly known and if our implementation is success, then it means that there aren't the downsides that are there now. Population with current system cannot sustain hundred thousand MG in Mitakihara, but with grief cleansing it can and can get magnitudes more grief from them in a single day-to-day usage than average MG witching out. Plus they would be using magic a lot more than even now with infinite magic MGs would use due secrecy.

That said...While Kyuubey does get more magic out of this system unfortunately witches would still exist due grief spiraling. But I genuinely think QB benefits from magic being cheaper. Now, infinite Sabrinas is a different story, since Sabrina can stop grief spiral.
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Like I said, worldwide magic reveal would do more to help with grief spirals by preventing girls from choosing to succumb to them- judging by the fact that Sayaka took at least a day to witch out whilst fighting and using magic pretty constantly during that time, grief spirals take quite a while to put you down. If there was easy access to cleansing and public knowledge of precisely what a grief spiral does, a full spiral to the point of witching would become extremely rare (likely not completely gone, but extremely uncommon- the most likely ways I could see them happening would be because either the girl wants to become a witch, or someone forces them into it by holding them captive or something).

As for the increased magic usage over time outweighing the benefits of witches, I doubt Kyuubey would see it that way. One reason is because Incubators are capable of manipulating and/or using grief to at least some degree (seeing as they can use grief seeds to generate energy) and they've been at this for thousands of years- it's very likely they know of a way to cleanse soul gems without the need for grief seeds, or could develop one if they so chose (even if it's something like 'drive one of their number insane with emotions, then subject him to the meguca treatment with a Sabrina wish'). The fact that they use the witch system instead suggests that they don't consider it a viable option.

Another reason I think that is because of the whole Madoka thing- they were perfectly willing to destroy Earth, losing any potential future grief collection, in exchange for a very large lump sum. Even if Madoka gave them a huge amount of grief, it's unlikely it'd outweigh the grief they could collect from the entire remainder of human civilisation. That suggests something about how they think of things; that they prefer large installments over lower but steady payments.

Lastly, there's the familiar thing; the number of familiar-to-witch transformations would drop incredibly sharply under a Sabrina system (more magical girls surviving + no reason to let familiar become witches = familiar hunting season), and that portion of their grief income would not be replaced or supplemented. How much of a drop that'd be I don't know, but it would be one.

As for whether or not Kyuubey could figure things out... once again, he's alien, not stupid. Just because he doesn't understand humans doesn't mean that he can't work out models to predict their behaviour, or extrapolate from past actions ('this girl wished to control grief, is constantly offering to remove local magical girl's dependencies on grief seeds, and is experimenting on grief seeds to find a way to empty them or create empty ones- what is her likely end goal?').
 
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In addition to the issues that NSMS raised, do bear in mind that whatever we do in this war, word of it will get out and it will colour our interactions with other meguca's in the future. There are just way to many megucas involved in this for word not to get out, plus almost all of them are relatively famous and well connected. Part of the reason I don't want us to be the ones who open fire first is because I down want to cultivate a bloodthirsty reputation, which is what will end up happening if we end up in combat with the Sendai group.
 
It's a reputation we can defeat pretty easily IMO considering what Sabrina is actually selling. Rumors versus proof and all that.

The Sendai group managed to get quite a few groups to side with them in spite of a rather poor reputation.

edit: Regardless, we stand to make friends here and the groups that are on the fence or even enemies we can work on given time.
 
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NSMS said:
(likely not completely gone, but extremely uncommon- the most likely ways I could see them happening would be because either the girl wants to become a witch, or someone forces them into it by holding them captive or something).
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There's a slight problem that this is a natural part of the grief spiral. Mundane and magical depression and loneliness would be the main factors for witching out.
NSMS said:
Even if Madoka gave them a huge amount of grief, it's unlikely it'd outweigh the grief they could collect from the entire remainder of human civilisation.
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It may be unlikely, but maybe it actually does, considering it's enough grief to create Madokahalla and a new universal law.

Muramasa said:
The Sendai group managed to get quite a few groups to side with them in spite of a rather poor reputation.
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Mercenary groups that likely don't care very much about reputation further than 'do they pay?'.

I always figured part of the reason to get involved in this conflict was to create a good reputation we can use to create a grief-cleansing network.
 
Onmur said:
There's a slight problem that this is a natural part of the grief spiral. Mundane and magical depression and loneliness would be the main factors for witching out.

It may be unlikely, but maybe it actually does, considering it's enough grief to create Madokahalla and a new universal law.


Mercenary groups that likely don't care very much about reputation further than 'do they pay?'.

I always figured part of the reason to get involved in this conflict was to create a good reputation we can use to create a grief-cleansing network.
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Indeed. Most of these groups are going to look at our assets first, ideology second. Though we can probably change this given time.
 
@NSMS: Hm. When I was speaking of grief spirals, I was more thinking of Mami+witchbomb, those not knowing of lichbomb thinking they're dead, or our earlier poke with Hildegarde. Or other reasons for spiraling, like loved one dying. Sayaka fighting for a day with one...Yeah, she would be fine under this system.

For cleansing, Jyubey makes me thing that incubators aren't best cleansers of grief.

As for Madoka thing, I thought it was entire universe's/at least Earth's karmic potential on her, several times over, so obviously it could surpass part of Earth's karmic potential.

However, point on familiars. Given it takes about 10 people for 1 familiar to become a witch and the population is nowhere near being farmed for maximum human being production....Eh, but the reasons for doing that aside, if one of these ten people would become a magical girl - that said, if less than 10%(due further kills as witch or not up to 10 kills) of population would become magical girls due this, it'd counterbalance it.

This gave me an idea: What if there is an upper cap on the number of magical girls?
 
Onmur said:
There's a slight problem that this is a natural part of the grief spiral. Mundane and magical depression and loneliness would be the main factors for witching out.
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A grief spiral making a meguca want to die, sure (irrationality and extreme emotional swings are part of the spiral, after all). Wanting to become a witch and go on a murder-spree after dying... that I don't really see unless it was already something they'd be inclined towards, or something else pushed them into it.
Onmur said:
It may be unlikely, but maybe it actually does, considering it's enough grief to create Madokahalla and a new universal law.
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Not necessarily- that could easily be down to simple concentration of energy/power producing a much more dramatic effect. The amount of energy the earth receives from the sun in a decade isn't enough to do more than maintain it at a roughly constant temperature, whilst a nuke can destroy a city and generates a much higher temperature despite having less energy due to the smaller area and the shorter time-scale it's released in.
Muramasa said:
It's a reputation we can defeat pretty easily IMO considering what Sabrina is actually selling. Rumors versus proof and all that.

The Sendai group managed to get quite a few groups to side with them in spite of a rather poor reputation.
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It wouldn't be crippling, but it would be unhelpful. And it would make it easier for Kyuubey (or Sendai, or whoever) to distort facts and push meguca groups at us. That, and rumours can be rather distorting of the facts in and of themselves- go three towns away and 'ended difficult negotiations where the other party was turning hostile with violence' will become 'telekinetically crushed someone's soul gem to prove a point' (exaggeration, but you see my point).
 
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NSMS said:
Even if Madoka gave them a huge amount of grief, it's unlikely it'd outweigh the grief they could collect from the entire remainder of human civilisation.
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Alternatively, Madoka actually did give them more than what they expected to get from the remainder of human civilization for the rest of time. Kyuubey did say that he met quota.
 
NSMS said:
A grief spiral making a meguca want to die, sure (irrationality and extreme emotional swings are part of the spiral, after all). Wanting to become a witch and go on a murder-spree after dying... that I don't really see unless it was already something they'd be inclined towards, or something else pushed them into it.
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I was thinking of:

"So how about we become monsters together…
And turn this world upside down?
So that… nothing bad… or sad… would remain.
Destroy, destroy, destroy it all!"
 
NSMS said:
It wouldn't be crippling, but it would be unhelpful. And it would make it easier for Kyuubey (or Sendai, or whoever) to distort facts and push meguca groups at us. That, and rumours can be rather distorting of the facts in and of themselves- go three towns away and 'ended difficult negotiations where the other party was turning hostile with violence' will become 'telekinetically crushed someone's soul gem to prove a point' (exaggeration, but you see my point).
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Regardless, the UG will love us. Ishinomaki will love us. Anyone else that hated Sendai is going to respect us (just because one group sided with Sendai doesn't mean they approve of Sendai's actions).

Of who is left, they would need a reason to get involved with us to become relevant or they're interested in us for other reasons. I think having a bloodthirsty reputation is going to be looked at a bit apathetically considering the kind of world they all live in tbh.
 
Aranfan said:
Alternatively, Madoka actually did give them more than what they expected to get from the remainder of human civilization for the rest of time. Kyuubey did say that he met quota.
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Hmm... I always thought of the quota as 'must get X amount over the next Y years', rather than 'we must get X amount from this civilisation total', but I could see that interpretation being right.
Onmur said:
I was thinking of:

"So how about we become monsters together…
And turn this world upside down?
So that… nothing bad… or sad… would remain.
Destroy, destroy, destroy it all!"
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I saw that as more 'we're both going to turn into witches here, but at least we'll be together' combined with dark thoughts (made worse by the spiral) from knowing that deaths were inevitable, rather than that the grief spiral pushing her specifically towards becoming a witch. Madoka certainly doesn't display any wish to become a witch in that scene- the exact opposite, in fact.
Muramasa said:
Regardless, the UG will love us. Ishinomaki will love us. Anyone else that hated Sendai is going to respect us (just because one group sided with Sendai doesn't mean they approve of Sendai's actions).

Of who is left, they would need a reason to get involved with us to become relevant or they're interested in us for other reasons. I think having a bloodthirsty reputation is going to be looked at a bit apathetically considering the kind of world they all live in tbh.
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Like I said, unhelpful but not crippling.
 
'Lement said:
@NSMS: Hm. When I was speaking of grief spirals, I was more thinking of Mami+witchbomb, those not knowing of lichbomb thinking they're dead, or our earlier poke with Hildegarde. Or other reasons for spiraling, like loved one dying. Sayaka fighting for a day with one...Yeah, she would be fine under this system.

For cleansing, Jyubey makes me thing that incubators aren't best cleansers of grief.

As for Madoka thing, I thought it was entire universe's/at least Earth's karmic potential on her, several times over, so obviously it could surpass part of Earth's karmic potential.

However, point on familiars. Given it takes about 10 people for 1 familiar to become a witch and the population is nowhere near being farmed for maximum human being production....Eh, but the reasons for doing that aside, if one of these ten people would become a magical girl - that said, if less than 10%(due further kills as witch or not up to 10 kills) of population would become magical girls due this, it'd counterbalance it.

This gave me an idea: What if there is an upper cap on the number of magical girls?
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Mami witchbomb wasn't really a grief spiral in the witchout sense (what I was thinking of)- it was an extreme example of what the negative emotions can do to an already fragile person. That it wouldn't really stop, you're right. The lichbomb wouldn't be a problem with meguca being public knowledge, though.

I've not read that sub-series, but wasn't Jyuubey an artificial incubator made by magical girls?

I thought it was just more than the next few hundred/few thousand years of human civilisation (however long their quota periods are measured by), although I could be wrong on that as I said above. Can't know for certain, really, so I'll concede that point.

There is, sort of; not everyone has the potential to become a magical girl. Judging from the fact that 1 in 10 girls don't mysteriously vanish (or at least, I assume they don't), it's likely quite a lot less than 10% of the population.
 
Kyoko's witch scene in Portable suggests she wanted to become a witch, as does the scene in Different Story where Candeloro tempts Mami.
 
Ugolino said:
At the end of the day, we're still doing our best not to kill anyone- and have the powers to pull that off.
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I dunno. I want to do the following skit:

Sabrina: Can we talk this out?
Enemy #1: No
Sabrina: *Detonates Enemy #1's Soul Gem*
Sabrina: That's a shame, I do so prefer talking to violence, are you sure we can't solve this with diplomacy?
 
I can handle a bloodthirsty reputation. I actually would prefer a reputation that says "When she got annoyed she went nuts and took down Sendai and Fukushima" to the one we have now. Seriously, why not have a rep that says "don't fuck with her, she'll go for the throat"? That would have been fantastic to have ALL through this entire war chapter.

[]To the UG, by telepathy: If it comes to a fight, the three of us are enough to end this war alone. We took down Ishinomaki in seconds. Please don't burn any favors complicating things with extra combatants. If we have to, we'll call our own allies.
[]To Rin: You understand the current positions are irreconcilable, right? The war started because the UG can't afford to pay grief seeds. Akiko knows this and has been told this. If she's asking you to negotiate down, she's just using you to stall for time. Unless Rin can convince Akiko to drop the demand entirely, then negotiations are about to break down.
-[]Assuming Rin can't talk Akiko down: Knowing everything, are you really going to be with her if it comes to a fight?
[]Discretely move our soul gem until Sakura is in range. Tell Mami and Kirika that we're going have to strike now, before Akiko does, and keep them updated. Pull Sakura's gem and any grief she's carrying, and secure her body with grief. If Rin wasn't convinced, pull her gem too and ribbon/grief her body. Get both gems out of range as quickly as possible.
[]Take to the skies with Mami, Kirika, and any other allies who want to come. WE HUNT.

If I'm supporting this option, I don't really give a shit why Akiko's stopped responding or what Sakura's doing. We aren't going to win over Sakura. We have a tiny chance of winning over Rin.
 
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SynchronizedWritersBlock said:
I can handle a bloodthirsty reputation. I actually would prefer a reputation that says "When she got annoyed she went nuts and took down Sendai and Fukushima" to the one we have now. Seriously, why not have a rep that says "don't fuck with her, she'll go for the throat"? That would have been fantastic to have ALL through this entire war chapter.
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The thing is that we would be going from placid, reasonable negotiator to 'annoyed rampage' in something like half an hour. And we want to create a kinder system, not prove Akiko right.
 
[]Discretely move our soul gem, protected in a case of grief, until Sakura is in range. Tell Mami and Kirika that we're going have to strike now, before Akiko does, and keep them updated. Pull Sakura's gem and any grief she's carrying, and secure her body with grief. If Rin wasn't convinced, pull her gem too and ribbon/grief her body. Get both gems out of range as quickly as possible.
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This has not been tested. What if we accidentally cut off the connection to our soul gem doing this?
 
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NSMS said:
There is, sort of; not everyone has the potential to become a magical girl. Judging from the fact that 1 in 10 girls don't mysteriously vanish (or at least, I assume they don't), it's likely quite a lot less than 10% of the population.
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10% is abit much. We don't have concrete numbers on Mitakihara's population, but assuming that it is comparable to Ishinomaki pre tsunami(~150k), then the potential to regular humans ratio is about 1:15k, and that's assuming that every witch we see in the series is a witched out magical girl, otherwise it's much closer to 1:30k
 
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Muramasa said:
[quote][]Discretely move our soul gem, protected in a case of grief, until Sakura is in range. Tell Mami and Kirika that we're going have to strike now, before Akiko does, and keep them updated. Pull Sakura's gem and any grief she's carrying, and secure her body with grief. If Rin wasn't convinced, pull her gem too and ribbon/grief her body. Get both gems out of range as quickly as possible.
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This has not been tested. What if we accidentally cut off the connection to our soul gem doing this?[/QUOTE]

Meh. We can just move the soul gem alone then. Struck that part.

Onmur said:
The thing is that we would be going from placid, reasonable negotiator to 'annoyed rampage' in something like half an hour. And we want to create a kinder system, not prove Akiko right.
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Do you think we're going to get anything from Akiko here? Then we're going to have to go on a rampage, be it self-triggered now, self-triggered next update, or triggered by her actions. And it's going to happen within the half an hour no matter how it happens. I absolutely can't see repeating our same point over again, except through Rin & Sakura this time, to have any effect on Akiko at all. So either we fight now or we fight a little later.

We can create a kinder system either way.
 
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