Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Torgamous]

Only problem in humoring me is that we are booked, afternoon-wise, until the weekend. As I said in my original vote, we'd be waiting until then, ironically enough. We could easily schedule a witch talk in addition to KyouSaya training on Wednesday, or even in addition to the Witch-scouring today, but... this feels like the kind of thing we'd want a slot of time to just be with Mami, afterwards. Not something we should be trying to "squeeze in", as it were.

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Hunting witches with Sayaka and Kyoko this afternoon has been pretty thoroughly unscheduled since the last planner update. Training isn't even something we have to be present for, especially now that Kyoko's in Mitakihara and we don't have to provide transportation. We're good for any afternoon.

We also don't have to verbally schedule conversations in advance, if you want to keep it flexible. We could just say "yes" and move on.

 

[ExploerTM]

I'm afraid I don't understand how the last line could be misconstrued as being patronizing, if you'll allow me to say so.

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And I dont see how its not sounds not patronizing. Though if you ask me to explain my reasoning I would draw a blank so I'll leave it at "its just me" *shrugs*.

Moreover, I don't believe that restraining Mami will be necessary or, indeed, wise.

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As I said previously, I am that guy that have absolutely zero hope in things ever going right and constantly looks into worst-case scenario. I am not telling we should do that but I do hope that people understand we might have no choice regardless of our wishes.

until recently, we haven't even begun to consider how to tell Mami about witches, despite her asking us to do exactly that

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If you allow me to be a bit... brash I guess, I call bullshit on that one. Compared to the length of this quest I've been here incredibly small amount of time and even then question about telling Mami about witches is constantly debated. Not every vote may be but its always there.

"ah, so it's bad for a number of reasons"

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I... dont think I said its bad, IIRC I just said I disagree with analysis of the situation but did agree to go through if people actually ready to handle the fallout.

Ok, so I did say I try to answer fully if I have time and I do now. So.

Sabrina talks about how wonderful and amazing and kind and smart Mami is, but all the ways in which we've talked about the Witchbomb in her have been... a little patronizing?

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It would be patronizing if we thought we knew what would happen based on nothing but our own assumptions. We however were/are cautious precisely because we know for a fact a possible outcome. There is a fine line between the two. "We know whats best for you" vs "I am really afraid that it might break you".

She asked us to think about how to tell her, and to do so when the time was right. We responded by refusing to think about it at all for hundreds of pages. That's hardly a relationship between equals, or just... doing the bare-bones of what our partner asked us to do.

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That's a little... okay, no, thats a very big leap here. This is exactly ONE issue we have with our communications with Mami. Hell, after confirming Madokami and Akumura thingy Mami would the person who knows the most secrets out of everyone aside from may be Kirika and Oriko (but they cheated so it doesnt really counts). Framing our handling of incredibly dangerous infohazard as Sabrina being a complete dick and ignoring everything else positive in her relationship with Mami is just... I dont think I even have words. Wrong I guess.

And we've been keeping her at arm's length, on this. Disconnected from what her friends all know.

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See, you doing the exact same thing here again. Mami knows THE MOST secrets out of everyone (who not cheats). Madoka doesnt know shit, Kyoko doesnt know shit, etc, etc. Homura and Sayaka are the only ones who come even close. We do anything but "disconnecting her from all her friends". Or I guess we do. On account of her knowing more than them.

No. If we're gonna tell her, then the idea that she probably already has it 99% figured out should be something we consider, but... it shouldn't be the reason why. We should be telling her because we have faith in our Mumi, just like she has faith in us, and because it's the right thing to do.

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I'll skip my obligatory villain™ speech about how hope and faith are for naive fools.

This entire reasoning is kind of flawed because we are now considering to tell her precisely because she might have already figured everything out and just needs final piece. We can make Sabrina say that we decided to tell Mami because we have faith in her. But that would be a blatant lie. Mami might never learn this, but Sabrina sure as hell will know. I'll vote either way really, but personally I wouldn't lie on this one and pretend to be some sort of saint. We have enough of that from Twins anyway.

 

[DataSnake]

Turning Madoka into the Law of Cycles would be deliberately sacrificing someone who didn't have to be involved in all this for her own benefit. And I don't think she would do it for that reason alone.

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Especially since Mami probably knows better than anyone alive exactly how miserable an eternity of fighting Witches alone, with no friends or family who even remember you exist, would be.

 

[AProcrastinator]

I... dont think I said its bad, IIRC I just said I disagree with analysis of the situation but did agree to go through if people actually ready to handle the fallout.

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Well, no, you didn't say it was bad.

So this line is horrible on multiple levels, gotcha.

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The precise wording was that it was "horrible".

 

[Nerevar]

I understand and sympathize with the idea that we need to lock plans in, lest we get to that point and then just not end up voting to do the thing. It's why I pushed to schedule our lunch talk with Madoka today.

In terms of Witchbomb timing, I do want to Witchbomb Shin and Nagisa when we meet for dinner this evening to explain why we had to bail on watching Nagisa to go deal with a group of international sky pirates. I think in general we should be lich and witch bombing potentials so they don't make their wishes without knowing the prices and risks involved. Madoka is a special case due to her potentially being able to wish away the Witchbomb per her Law of Cycles wish, but as a more general policy, I think this would be wise.

Telling Mami before dinner this evening seems like it would simplify a number of things. Doing it before lunch so she can most fully participate in the conversation about what to tell and not tell Madoka might also be useful. Especially since Mami is now the only person on our main team who knows that particular infohazard management risk.

I recognize we don't want to Witchbomb Mami in an off handed fashion, and doing it in timestop before lunch isn't exactly a comforting environment, even if it would mean having all the time we need to fully address it. Not to mention Homura's (reasonable) concerns about having Mami in timestop when she's Witchbombed. On the other hand, it is afternoon sun and she would be surrounded by people she cares about.

Maybe have the full Madoka talk in timestop before lunch and Witchbomb Mami outside timestop after? Not sure. At this point I'm spitballing rather than putting together a coherent plan.

 

[ExploerTM]

The precise wording was that it was "horrible".

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That was regardless this specific line (which I thought I made clear?) and because in addition to being patronizing (again, just to me it seems) its also falls flat in the intended message that we gonna tell Mami very soon. Hence, "Horrible on multiple levels".

Two is technically multiple! Sue me!

 

[Nerevar]

This entire reasoning is kind of flawed because we are now considering to tell her precisely because she might have already figured everything out and just needs final piece. We can make Sabrina say that we decided to tell Mami because we have faith in her. But that would be a blatant lie. Mami might never learn this, but Sabrina sure as hell will know. I'll vote either way really, but personally I wouldn't lie on this one and pretend to be some sort of saint. We have enough of that from Twins anyway.

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I will object to this part.

For me, at least, my hesitation to Witchbomb Mami has always been out of concern we would fail to adequately address what is different now relative to the Tetris loop that makes murder/suicide no longer a reasonable response to the Witchbomb for someone who absolutely did think that was a reasonable response then.

By choosing to reveal the details about the Law of Cycles and the Rebellion, we've cut the proverbial Gordian Knot. That things are different and that there are options Tetris!Mami would not have considered in making her decision should now be significantly more obvious to our Mami.

That is why I've shifted to supporting Witchbombing Mami, not some idea that she's at any more risk of figuring it out on her own than she's always been.

 

[ExploerTM]

I will object to this part.

For me, at least, my hesitation to Witchbomb Mami has always been out of concern we would fail to adequately address what is different now relative to the Tetris loop that makes murder/suicide no longer a reasonable response to the Witchbomb for someone who absolutely did think that was a reasonable response then.

By choosing to reveal the details about the Law of Cycles and the Rebellion, we've cut the proverbial Gordian Knot. That things are different and that there are options Tetris!Mami would not have considered in making her decision should now be significantly more obvious to our Mami.

That is why I've shifted to supporting Witchbombing Mami, not some idea that she's at any more risk of figuring it out on her own than she's always been.

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I think you misunderstood my point a bit. Regardless of what individual takes are, what spurred this discussion in the first place right now is that we suspect Mami is almost there anyway. So claiming that we telling her because we have faith or whatever is already a lie; if this observation wasnt made good chances are we would still be putting this away "for a bit longer".

 

[Nerevar]

I think you misunderstood my point a bit. Regardless of what individual takes are, what spurred this discussion in the first place right now is that we suspect Mami is almost there anyway. So claiming that we telling her because we have faith or whatever is already a lie; if this observation wasnt made good chances are we would still be putting this away "for a bit longer".

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I just think if we're trying to be honest, when trying to explain how we feel about something where there's conflict in the thread, the best way to express that is simply saying we're conflicted, and that "part of me thinks this, and another part of me thinks that". It's a normal thing that happens to normal people.

Our least charitable and most unkind thoughts are not "what we really think". Not for Sabrina and not for any of us living in her head. And I think it would be less honest to say that's the only reason we're telling her, not more honest.

 

[Firnagzen]

Two things of note:

Sabrina would be the first person to know (and have time to react to) if Mami figures out the Witchbomb.

Second, as Mami will point out during the upcoming update; one of the big clues for figuring out who the goddesses in Sabrina's story is simply from watching the way Sabrina interacts with Madoka and Homura. Bringing Yuki to lunch would be giving her that hint, for better or for worse.

 

[Torgamous]

How rude excluding her from lunch would be depends a lot on whether she's going to grab a random suitable building in Mitakihara as a temporary hub and return to Fukushima immediately, as was originally the plan, or if she's stuck hanging around until after school now.

 

[Meowgician]

Obviously the solution is to try extremely hard to act normal around Madoka and Homura, resulting in the most stilted and suspicious social interactions recorded in the history of megucakind.

Surely Yuki will never see through that!

 

[Spectral Waltz]

I think Mami is in a stable enough place that she'll listen and think rather than spiraling into despair and doing something stupid and unforgivable. Keep in mind, when OTL!Mami learned about this, she basically discovered she was on an existential time limit. Some of her more impulsive actions may possibly be attributable to a lack of time to think or process, as well as a lack of immediate and proactive emotional support.

 

[Suleverf]

Unless Kyubey decides to blatantly sabotage the whole thing (which IS a possibility and a rather real one)

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I deem it highly likely, and it's specifically what I'm trying to guard against. From one of Oriko's old visions (the context is asking Oriko about how Homura learns about the potentialbomb):

"In the days before Walpurgisnacht," Oriko says finally. "As you assemble the magical girls to fight. That's when the Incubator strikes, to tear it all down.

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If Kyubey decides it's time to potentialbomb Homura, it would be a trivial matter to extend that to carpetbombing our closest friends with whatever truths available to try and shatter our little coalition.

That's WAAAAAY out of character for Mami. Jumping herself? Sure. Throwing someone else? Hell no.

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It depends on how Sabrina framed the Rebellion tale, since she was vague on explaining the circumstances and motivations leading to Madoka's wish. Sabrina called it a sacrifice, but did her retelling explicitly endorse Homura's view that Madoka was miserably lonely and had to be saved from that sacrifice? The film is infamous for being divisive on this exact point.

If Sabrina did not, then I can see a sort of skewed pathway to justify it for Mami, similar to how others have argued that Tetris was logical for Mami's past circumstances. It would be to believe that Madoka was content in the sacrifice she made, and would choose of her own volition to do it again if given the chance. Compare that to the witches of countless magical girls across time. Now Sabrina also promises to break the system through less reality-warping means, but this necessarily limits us from saving girls forsaken in the past. And also there are present girls right now who can't be saved because Sabrina is not currently a godhead.

To be clear, I am not arguing for the above conclusions or even claiming that it's very likely for Mami to believe. I view it as another possibility to guard against. Though if we get into an extremely dire situation it will easily replace Tetris as the most attractive "lose the least" option.

It's not like the Witchbomb is required for her to decide sacrificing Madoka for the greater good makes sense.

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It's not required, it's just something to shift the scales more in favor and make it more justifiable. To not only stop the misery produced by witches existing, but the hopelessness experienced by all magical girls ever who turned into or learned that they will turn into witches. Girls that Mami could've (had) been.

 

[ExploerTM]

Bringing Yuki to lunch would be giving her that hint, for better or for worse.

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I am kind down for just rolling with it. Yuki is yet to make us doubt her and another pair of eyes and not damaged brain to monitor situation certainly would be helpful. Yuki also already too deep in the whole thing to start backpedalling and knows better than try to betray Sabrina. Forget even about the whole Clear Seeds thing, killing Madoka would piss off True Grief manipulator, Time stopper, Power copier, Kyoko Sakura and Mami fucking Tomoe. Yuki's crew good but not "Survive against enraged Mitakihara branch of Constellation" good and she knows that. She also very much lacks martyr complex unlike certain someone so she wouldn't even entertain such idea.

 

[Recurrence]

Witchbombing Mami? In this economy?

I think she can take it at this point, but it's going to be messy. Biggest consideration at the moment is the spiritual ramifications of her picking Homura and Madoka out that need to be dealt with first. On top of which she's probably not going to be in a good place afterwards.

It'd be best to do it tonight, once the rest of our to-do list is safe and we have time to just be there for her. Ideally with Kyouko and Yuma out of the house at the time, I wouldn't want it affecting things between them too badly. I also forget whether we've bombed Kyouko and Yuma at this point, but if we haven't they'd need to know too as a priority right afterwards. I feel like I'm being an idiot and they know, but as always it's faster to be wrong and have some correct you.

 

[Nerevar]

Witchbombing Mami? In this economy?

I think she can take it at this point, but it's going to be messy. Biggest consideration at the moment is the spiritual ramifications of her picking Homura and Madoka out that need to be dealt with first. On top of which she's probably not going to be in a good place afterwards.

It'd be best to do it tonight, once the rest of our to-do list is safe and we have time to just be there for her. Ideally with Kyouko and Yuma out of the house at the time, I wouldn't want it affecting things between them too badly. I also forget whether we've bombed Kyouko and Yuma at this point, but if we haven't they'd need to know too as a priority right afterwards. I feel like I'm being an idiot and they know, but as always it's faster to be wrong and have some correct you.

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We lichbombed Kyoko and Yuma before the hunt because we wanted to make sure they knew before the Soujus showed up, so they'd understand what getting their Soul Gems stolen would mean.

We did not Witchbomb them, but we did leave them with the implication there was more to be said.

I'm actually thinking we might want to Witchbomb Mami, Kyoko, and Yuma together rather than try to do it separately, if not Witchbomb Kyoko and Yuma first. It's been mentioned before that Yuma has taken it particularly well has helped keep Mami from spiraling. In general, Mami having more people she cares about around seems wise.

 

[DataSnake]

To be clear, I am not arguing for the above conclusions or even claiming that it's very likely for Mami to believe. I view it as another possibility to guard against. Though if we get into an extremely dire situation it will easily replace Tetris as the most attractive "lose the least" option.

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Which is a big improvement because unlike Tetris, it's not something Mami can unilaterally do before anyone else has a chance to react. And it should be fairly easy to talk her down from if it comes up at all because she understands loneliness the same way Kyōko understands food insecurity.

 

[Recurrence]

We lichbombed Kyoko and Yuma before the hunt because we wanted to make sure they knew before the Soujus showed up, so they'd understand what getting their Soul Gems stolen would mean.

We did not Witchbomb them, but we did leave them with the implication there was more to be said.

I'm actually thinking we might want to Witchbomb Mami, Kyoko, and Yuma together rather than try to do it separately, if not Witchbomb Kyoko and Yuma first. It's been mentioned before that Yuma has taken it particularly well has helped keep Mami from spiraling. In general, Mami having more people she cares about around seems wise.

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Thanks for correcting me, glad to know I can still remember some things sort of right.

I take your point about having people around her being better for Mami but I am super concerned about having Mami and Kyouko in the same room and finding out at the same time for this on two fronts.

The first is that the single biggest guilt vector for Mami in this equation is going to be her students. And she's going to feel guilty about them in time no matter what we do but having Kyouko sitting right there is going to bring it into focus right away.

The second is that I am loathe to give Kyouko an easy target to direct her self-loathing at. They are still rebuilding their friendship. Mami's the single easiest target for Kyouko to direct her negative feelings at on this one and Mami will never ever be as vulnerable as she is when she finds out the truth. If Kyouko says one word even slightly wrong it'll stick with Mami forever.

Now of we get time to bomb Kyouko and Yuma just prior, then that mitigates a lot of risk, but even so, I'd be worried about Kyouko giving her a look on the way in. Nowhere near as damaging but still the type of thing that'll haunt Mami.

Mami is going to need to hear Kyouko and Kazumi not blaming her for this quickly after she finds out. Honestly, she may never believe it, but she needs to hear it.

Yuma's cool. She'll be good for whoever she's with. But we may also want to bus in the Swiss Army Blueberry for emotional support, break or no, I think she'll want to be there for her friends. She can help stabilise either Mami or Kyouko and she's already dealt with it.

 

[Firnagzen]

How rude excluding her from lunch would be depends a lot on whether she's going to grab a random suitable building in Mitakihara as a temporary hub and return to Fukushima immediately, as was originally the plan, or if she's stuck hanging around until after school now.

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After reviewing, it looks like you're right - it's the former. I'll fix it in-text with the next update.

 

[Torgamous]

In that case I support not inviting her to lunch.

 

[JIMI94]

Only thing at this point I could see Mami doing that would be risky with all this info would be her trying to see if she could mimic the second transformation Homura pulled off, but given she has absolutely zero trust for Kyuubey the only way she could even try is if she got Sabrina and Constellation to try it (which means it wouldn't happen unless we were absolutely sure it would be safe).

 

[Arum60]

Only thing at this point I could see Mami doing that would be risky with all this info would be her trying to see if she could mimic the second transformation Homura pulled off, but given she has absolutely zero trust for Kyuubey the only way she could even try is if she got Sabrina and Constellation to try it (which means it wouldn't happen unless we were absolutely sure it would be safe).

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I don't think she would? Or could.

Like, that may be something that requires physics that doesn't exist

And I don't think she has the power to do so?

Regardless, looking at the tallies, it seems that one of the votes tied for first includes "waiting to tell Mami about the Witchbomb till this weekend"

I don't think that's a good idea? As in, I'm pretty sure it's Monday and we're on a time crunch (in universe; out of universe we have years). We'd basically have 6 days of one of our allies being uninformed for little reason. If we've resolved to say it, we should probably get it over with as soon as we can.

So, I don't think we should promise it for the Weekend. We should probably say "sometime soon" or schedule it for today/tomorrow.

Plus, when Mami's fully informed we can take her to whatever science thing we want with no infohazard risk.

 

[Nerevar]

I don't think she would? Or could.

Like, that may be something that requires physics that doesn't exist

And I don't think she has the power to do so?

Regardless, looking at the tallies, it seems that one of the votes tied for first includes "waiting to tell Mami about the Witchbomb till this weekend"

I don't think that's a good idea? As in, I'm pretty sure it's Monday and we're on a time crunch (in universe; out of universe we have years). We'd basically have 6 days of one of our allies being uninformed for little reason. If we've resolved to say it, we should probably get it over with as soon as we can.

So, I don't think we should promise it for the Weekend. We should probably say "sometime soon" or schedule it for today/tomorrow.

Plus, when Mami's fully informed we can take her to whatever science thing we want with no infohazard risk.

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Like I said, I'm okay with Witchbombing Mami at this point and am sympathetic to the desire to schedule it so we actually follow through.

The only reason it hasn't been added to my vote is I don't know when we want to do it. Scheduling requires specifics.

I'm leaning toward the time stop conversation before we talk to Madoka, at least in part because Homura has used us not telling Mami as an arguement against telling Madoka things, and her seeing Mami get past the Witchbomb right before the talk with Madoka has potential to encourage her to be more open with Madoka. But I can see arguments for other times and don't want to X that without consensus.

What time are you leaning toward?

 

[DataSnake]

Thinking about it, we might want to wait a couple of days, especially if we want to Witchbomb Kyōko and Yuma at the same time. Not only is Sayaka currently taking a much needed mental health day which I'd really prefer not to interrupt (and this definitely feels like the kind of conversation that Emotional Support Blueberry would be helpful for), but we've recently been advised to give Mami and Kyōko more time together without Sabrina being the third wheel, which will probably go better if we don't preface it by giving them something new to worry/fight about. Also, you know, their relationship isn't as strong as it used to be yet (I mean, IIRC it's been less than 72 hours in game since Kyōko came back to Mitakihara), so now is probably not the best time to put any additional strain on it.