Dragontrapper
Homeless Draconis
- Location
- A Tower in the middle of nowhere
[Q] "Clever girl"
-[Q] Spawn appropriate hat.
-[Q] Spawn appropriate hat.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- Georgia
Hmm. I wonder if we could power such an item with our own magic. Being able to transfer magic constructs from person to person would be very useful, though I wouldn't want to try it with Sabrina's constructs before figuring out de-Witching, as trying to take over a familiar dumped the Grief it was made from into our own gem, and Sabrina's constructs are essentially the same idea.
I mean, we know it *is* possible for magic to replicate- as in, for magic to branch//fragment into multiple self-sustaining units
Witches are the prime example of this
So, magic *should* be replicatable, we just haven't figured that out yet
- Location
- Georgia
No, I meant that we could let Umika make her pen, give it to us, and then we try to swap it from being powered by her to being powered by us, so it stays usable. I see it as a two part experiment, trying it both within and then outside of her range, if trying it close to her doesn't work. We know that adding our magic to something enchanted/created by another is uncomfortably intimate, but that may not be the case when swapping completely to a new user.
We should probably mention that we're wish born at some point. Being powered by the wish of the first girl we described would help the others understand why our magic is so unique, and also why we've been so implausibly successful here-to-fore. Kana* should definitely be told about being wish born as it is a commonality that might help her understand that we can empathize with, not just pity, her situation.
*Or whoever the wish-born girl with a grudge against the Pleiades is, if I'm misremembering the name.
AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
I support telling Mami, but I don't support telling her that the only reason we're doing so is because she's close to figuring things out on her own. That would be... kind of shitty of Sabrina, honestly.
Honestly, I think Sabrina's been kinda shitty towards Mami about this, as it is. I know, Mami specifically told us that she had faith in us to tell her things when we were ready, and when the time was right, but... all our discussion has been focusing on how she'll react, on how best to get her through things, on how much of a liability she might become. Sabrina talks about how wonderful and amazing and kind and smart Mami is, but all the ways in which we've talked about the Witchbomb in her have been... a little patronizing?
Until very recently we've been seeing telling Mami as a bad end, honestly.
She asked us to think about how to tell her, and to do so when the time was right. We responded by refusing to think about it at all for hundreds of pages. That's hardly a relationship between equals, or just... doing the bare-bones of what our partner asked us to do.
...I mean, the poor girl wished to "Connect to life", right? And her life since then has made it plainly obvious that what she really meant was to connect to people. And we've been keeping her at arm's length, on this. Disconnected from what her friends all know.
No. If we're gonna tell her, then the idea that she probably already has it 99% figured out should be something we consider, but... it shouldn't be the reason why. We should be telling her because we have faith in our Mumi, just like she has faith in us, and because it's the right thing to do.
But maybe I'm overthinking things, who knows. Either way, I'd better make my own vote, here.
[X] How do you answer Mami?
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.Flirt outrageously. Then, once Mami's done with what she wanted to say:
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
Honestly, I think Sabrina's been kinda shitty towards Mami about this, as it is. I know, Mami specifically told us that she had faith in us to tell her things when we were ready, and when the time was right, but... all our discussion has been focusing on how she'll react, on how best to get her through things, on how much of a liability she might become. Sabrina talks about how wonderful and amazing and kind and smart Mami is, but all the ways in which we've talked about the Witchbomb in her have been... a little patronizing?
Until very recently we've been seeing telling Mami as a bad end, honestly.
She asked us to think about how to tell her, and to do so when the time was right. We responded by refusing to think about it at all for hundreds of pages. That's hardly a relationship between equals, or just... doing the bare-bones of what our partner asked us to do.
...I mean, the poor girl wished to "Connect to life", right? And her life since then has made it plainly obvious that what she really meant was to connect to people. And we've been keeping her at arm's length, on this. Disconnected from what her friends all know.
No. If we're gonna tell her, then the idea that she probably already has it 99% figured out should be something we consider, but... it shouldn't be the reason why. We should be telling her because we have faith in our Mumi, just like she has faith in us, and because it's the right thing to do.
But maybe I'm overthinking things, who knows. Either way, I'd better make my own vote, here.
[X] How do you answer Mami?
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
Last edited:
Recurrence
Armchair Parapsychologist
- Location
- Limbo
I feel like I don't really need to say that we should probably spend a minute or two making sure Mami's alright after we confirm her suspicions. Because most of the prospective votes seem to be built around that. To point out the elephant in the room, we've just laid out that not only are god and the devil real but she has been hanging with their mortal forms for a month now. I'm also going to point out she undoubtedly has picked which one of them is which. None of what we laid out in abstract is lost on her in how it would/has played out materially. She has also now has grasped that Madoka's potential is capable of rewriting reality. And there are implications within implications for her understanding of Homura's psyche. Suffice to say, at this moment, with obvious exceptions, she's the very closest not-us person to grasping everything. We have massively unfair advantages when it comes to grasping everything, namely that we can reach out and give her a hug right now. We should probably do that.
Ariesthegolden
He who knows not how to ADHD, but is learning
- Pronouns
- He/Him
In fairness the witch secret hits differently for Mami in particular. She's deadicated a good portion to her life to her ideal of a magical girl, to serve as an example for future girls and to save lives by killing witches. Knowing that every girl she inspired had there souls ripped out was brutal for her, as is confirmed to her without a shadow of a doubt that she did significantly more harm then good whenever she made a true friend. Learning that not only are they liches, but future witches? Doomed to spending their last moments on this earth in abject misery while killing and bringing harm to the world? It's not much wonder that her first action after that was mercy killings
And sure, now Sabrina's in the picture and she's setting up a lot of solutions. That is what has helped others for when they learn the truth, but Mami knows that Sabrina's just one girl. And spectacular as she is she has to ask, can this last? Will something happen to take her out? What about the incubator? What might it do to preserve is broken system?
It very well might have set Mami back badly, no matter how gently we did it. And we already had regrets about how we handled earlier bombs.
But now that she knows everything? Has full context for what we've been dealing with? She might very well feel that hope is on the horizon. She knows now that Homura and Madoka won't stop until they save the other, and at this point they very well might succeed. They serve as both great backups for our efforts and as examples to strive for.
But not only that, she also has to think about what Sabrina's done with that knowledge. And when the incredible amount of dedication that she has put into this takes full root in her. I don't think she's going to allow herself to agonize over it anymore. Her junior's haven't and never will, and she's supposed to be their senior. What kind of example has she been setting! No, no more and absolutely not. It's time to pull a Sabrina and put her all into making things right.
It won't be easy for her, especially with Kyoko living in the same house, but I think it's going to spark a resolve in her that's comparable to Homura's. A resolve to utterly shatter this system from top to bottom with a thoroughness to make Sabrina proud.
I would pin that on the lingering memory of the lichbomb reveal and the very specific way that the witchbomb undermines Mami's worldview across various PMMM works. Perhaps the time has been right for a while, but this is a concrete sign for people to rally to.
I wouldn't really call it Sabrina refusing to think about it. Keep in mind how long the discussions for a single vote can go on, and that's just for several hours of in-universe time. If we go by thread time, Sabrina has thought about it across many years. It's just that there has been no concerted push to aggregate these thoughts into a vote-ready plan. I know for me personally I wasn't all that interested in rehashing what I've posted about it before unless it became something Sabrina was actually planning to do in the near future.
Toward that end:
I like this vote, could you put an [X] in front of the plan name and add a dash in front of all subsequent subvotes? That would make it possible to vote for by just copying the [X] [PLAN NAME] line. Also I suggest removing the part about her possibly already figuring out the witchbomb, as AProcrastinator said I don't think it should be a factor in our deciding to tell her.
[X] Secrets aren't good for relationships
Last edited:
- Location
- The Endless Abyss of Middle America
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] How do you answer Mami?
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.Flirt outrageously. Then, once Mami's done with what she wanted to say:
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
- Location
- Florida
[X] How do you answer Mami?
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.Flirt outrageously. Then, once Mami's done with what she wanted to say:
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
-[X] Yep. 100% correct.
-[X] Hear out her questions, concerns, and statements in full. Answer any questions she has and fill in gaps in her knowledge, aside from Witchbombs and their ilk.
-[X] ...I've left you to guess, on a lot of this, haven't I? You've always guessed correctly, cause you're my super smart Marigold Mami, but... the fact that you've had to guess on so much kind of reflects badly on me, I think. You've asked me to tell you about things when I figured out how, but I've... been avoiding the topic, I think. Scared of how you'd react.
--[X] I'm sorry, Mami. I ought to have more faith and trust in you. You're my girlfriend, after all.
--[X] You said something about the afternoon sun being a good time to face world-shattering truths, right? This weekend. If you think you're up for it, me and the girls can bring you into the fold - where you belong.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Oh man, do I disagree with a lot of this analysis. Unfortunately I dont quite have time to write detailed response (hope to do that later if I wont forget lol) but for now...
This line portrays us not telling Mami as simply paranoia, an assumption we took and ran with. Not, you know, literally what happened in reality. So I am not really appreciating cavalier attitude towards telling her that. Lich thing I would consider so minor revelation its not even worth mentioning and its known to break people in PMMM. Do I need to remind people how Mami reacted to that? Mami's problem is that her entire life revolves around being meguca and fighting evil monsters. That the thing that holds her together and she brought quite a few people into this life. Nowadays she learned that its not all sunshine and rainbows but its very much different from learning that the work of your life not only been for nothing, it actively made the world WORSE.
I however not really opposed to telling her that. But I cannot stress this enough: Everyone who votes for telling Mami about Witches also should be prepared to vote to forcibly restrain her (if necessary) and similarly forcibly without permission start ripping grief out of her soul gem. If you are not ready to make this call... DONT.
(Also, is this vote sounds incredibly patronising towards the end or its just me?)
This line portrays us not telling Mami as simply paranoia, an assumption we took and ran with. Not, you know, literally what happened in reality. So I am not really appreciating cavalier attitude towards telling her that. Lich thing I would consider so minor revelation its not even worth mentioning and its known to break people in PMMM. Do I need to remind people how Mami reacted to that? Mami's problem is that her entire life revolves around being meguca and fighting evil monsters. That the thing that holds her together and she brought quite a few people into this life. Nowadays she learned that its not all sunshine and rainbows but its very much different from learning that the work of your life not only been for nothing, it actively made the world WORSE.
I however not really opposed to telling her that. But I cannot stress this enough: Everyone who votes for telling Mami about Witches also should be prepared to vote to forcibly restrain her (if necessary) and similarly forcibly without permission start ripping grief out of her soul gem. If you are not ready to make this call... DONT.
(Also, is this vote sounds incredibly patronising towards the end or its just me?)
Hmmm
Sure!
[X] Secrets aren't good for relationships
- [X] Yes.
- - [X] Side note, but you've gotten *most* of the story. The last bit is that infohazard that we've eluded to before. We're thinking about telling you soon, honestly we need to, and we've been debating it among ourselves for a while now and at this point we're just procrastinating because we're scared. We can't figure out the *perfect* arrangement of words, of conditions, and that scares us. We need to tell you soon or we never will. Now's probably not the time, but please remind us of this later.
- [X] Yes, of *course* we're bringing our building girl to the roof lunch spot. Obviously.
Note: It's obvious that Yuki dislikes our habit of keeping secrets, so we should probably explain things a bit more to her if we can.
- [X] After, let's go back and have our Science Session with our matter transmutation girl.
Note: There's still that prisoner that asked to talk with us. Noting this so we don't forget.
To be frank
We've been keeping too much from her
For far too long
We've been debating for a *while* now, and to be honest we will never have a perfect plan for telling her.
So it's best to start with that process *now* rather than procrastinating
Last edited:
BethofDeath
Girls just wanna have pun
- Location
- Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Has to be like so (edit: supposedly not? Even tho I remember being told otherwise?)
[]
-[]
--[]
No spaces.
And I'm with ExploerTM on this, except one little detail.... why on Madokami's green-and-blue still-beicecapped Earth wouldn't we ask permission on at least the Grief-yanking first? Not that doing so would prevent a perfectly mundane sort of grief spiral, mind.
[]
-[]
--[]
No spaces.
And I'm with ExploerTM on this, except one little detail.... why on Madokami's green-and-blue still-beicecapped Earth wouldn't we ask permission on at least the Grief-yanking first? Not that doing so would prevent a perfectly mundane sort of grief spiral, mind.
Last edited:
Agreed. If we are going to be serious about witchbombing, asking for advance permission to grief clean is part of the basic preparation. If I recall correctly, doing it without asking was a misstep we already made during the lichbomb.
Needing to restrain her reflects either a grave miscalculation on our part or a massive fumbling of the wording. Basically bringing back the emergency measures and panic on our part during the lichbomb. If she still needs restraints at this point, what will this look like on Walpurgisnacht? So while we should be prepared for such a reaction (as unlikely as I think it is), it would be better to discover that while there's still a week (is it 1.5 weeks? I've lost all sense of time in the quest) to help her through this for Walpurgisnacht.
My main concern at this point is Mami going all in on the Madoka Magica button to save all magical girls NOW since she will know the button exists (and while the ethics of pushing this button is debatable, I think most will agree that leading the quest into a repeat of that is undesirable). Though since she also knows about Rebellion, it should be easier for her to understand that things are not so simple.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Under "Thread Tools" at the top, there's a vote tally function where you can see for yourself that this isn't true.Has to be like so
[]
-[]
--[]
No spaces.
That's all poetic and stuff, but it's Monday. "This weekend" would mean putting off telling her for another five days.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Just a reminder: I am the local pessimist who always expects the worst possible outcome. So yeah, if WE ARE ready to make such call, if despite hoping for the best we are prepared for the worst, go for it. Just make~ / A leap of faith~
Eh? Unless Kyubey decides to blatantly sabotage the whole thing (which IS a possibility and a rather real one), witching out in no way, shape or form would come up during Walpurgisnacht fight. Sure, phantom megucas are iffy but people without knowledge about the system would assume those represent megucas Walpurgis killed... which IIRC actually true? So... eh?
How would she do it though, she already spent her Wish and didnt have Madoka level potential in the first place anyway.
So this line is horrible on multiple levels, gotcha.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
They're talking about Mami pressuring Madoka to make her canon wish and become the Law of Cycles, or possibly just telling Madoka about it so she'll reunite with her godhead.
I think we were convincing on that not being an acceptable answer, due to our overview of Rebellion, but if she was going to do that, she has everything she needs now. It's not like the Witchbomb is required for her to decide sacrificing Madoka for the greater good makes sense.
That option being there, even as an abstract, I think will help the situation feel less hopeless, but Mami would hate herself for doing it even more than she did during Tetris. Tetris was her doing a mercy killing to spare her friends worse while feeling suicidally guilty for the role she played dragging them all into this. Turning Madoka into the Law of Cycles would be deliberately sacrificing someone who didn't have to be involved in all this for her own benefit. And I don't think she would do it for that reason alone.
Even our greatest foe, the evil Empress Mami from Homura Tamura was sacrificing versions of herself for her power up. And that's the closest I can think of in terms of any version of Mami sacrificing someone else for her own benefit.
Because, even at her absolute worst, Mami Tomoe is a hero.
ExploerTM
Ruin has found you at last!
- Location
- Russia, Perm
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
That's WAAAAAY out of character for Mami. Jumping herself? Sure. Throwing someone else? Hell no.
Well, actually it is. Knowing that not only this would defeat all witches ever but also save (ahahahahahahahhahahahahaha NO) all megucas ever is big difference. Like in general, no difference for Mami because throwing someone else under the bus is big no-no.
I meant to ask that for a while... but why the hell tetris? I really dont get why people keep calling this scene tetris. Am I missing something? Am I stupid?
...I really should get around reading Tamura some day, the more I hear snippets from this thing the more deranged it sounds.
It's a reference to a meme from a really popular Japanese remix that uses said scene played to the tune of Tetris Theme A.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
If you don't know there's anything to save megucas from, getting rid of all the Witches ever looks like it would solve the biggest remaining problem. And it's not like Witches are some minor trifle even without knowing their human origins. They are invisible monsters that kill people and make them kill themselves, and which even for superhuman Magical Girls are not trivial foes to overcome.
I agree Mami wouldn't make this sacrifice, but you don't need to know more than the fact that Witches exist to potentially see the benefit of sacrificing Madoka to eliminate them. It's why we've been keeping the fact that Madoka can do that a secret.
It's an old meme where they used Mami's anguished gaps and sobs during that scene as notes to play the Tetris theme. Mami has long been the subject of dark comedy. The decapitation jokes are just the tip of the iceburg.
It is absolutely hilarious crack. And has some oddly sweet and touching moments.
There was something properly triumphant about the cross time bar of Homuras collectively rejecting the Law of Cycles' offer and declaring that they will continue fighting to save their Madokas.
Really, the best part of getting all the bombs out of the way will be that we would finally be able to share the immense collection of comedy crack fic with out friends.
BethofDeath
Girls just wanna have pun
- Location
- Sector ZZ9 Plural Z Alpha
- Pronouns
- She/Her
The crackfic must flow!
Can you send a link to it? I can't seem to find it
AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
Mmm. Well, to start: I'm afraid I don't understand how the last line could be misconstrued as being patronizing, if you'll allow me to say so.
Moreover, I don't believe that restraining Mami will be necessary or, indeed, wise. And a touch in the opposite direction: if I really expected that Mami would be 100% okay if we just told her out of the blue and had faith, instead of carefully considering our words and being there for her afterwards, I would be voting for telling her right this moment, rather than advising that we should talk to Homura and Sayaka about this.
My position is not "we were cautious about telling Mami, therefore we were unjustifiably paranoid." I am not unaware that Mami reacted murderously badly in previous loops. My position is that "until recently, we haven't even begun to consider how to tell Mami about witches, despite her asking us to do exactly that. "
(The closest we'd come for a long time was saying "We just have to fix the problem first! THEN we can tell Mami!" which... I do not wish to be unkind to anyone, but...)
Finally, I do not believe that the drive-by snipings - "that last line is so patronizing" and "ah, so it's bad for a number of reasons" - are made in good faith. I will consider counterarguments from other people readily, but you will have to do a lot of work in convincing me that you are being genuine in what you say.
This, on the other hand, is an extrememly good point! Whoops!
Where's that day planner again? Clearly, I need to reorient where in the timeline we are and what our immediate future looks like, so we can carve out a slot after school sometime soon (not quite the ideal afternoon sun, but close!) to have The Witch Talk in.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
AProcrastinator
You can Certainly Try
- Location
- Getting Somewhere
- Pronouns
- She/Hers
Right; thank you very much. So...
I mean, the "Afternoon is the best time to face existential horror" thing is sorta like a hangup of mine as this point, I get it, but - it did feel like a hint from Firn at the time, and we need to stack the deck as much as possible. That's how I feel, at least.
Only problem in humoring me is that we are booked, afternoon-wise, until the weekend. As I said in my original vote, we'd be waiting until then, ironically enough. We could easily schedule a witch talk in addition to KyouSaya training on Wednesday, or even in addition to the Witch-scouring today, but... this feels like the kind of thing we'd want a slot of time to just be with Mami, afterwards. Not something we should be trying to "squeeze in", as it were.
Ignoring the "afternoon" idea, though... tomorrow evening, we're doing enchantment practice. That seems like a good lead-in, honestly. We could do it then.
I dunno, what do the people who agree with me think? Hell, what do the people who disagree with me think?