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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Suleverf said:
This is what I meant:

It would be the holy grail of energy that uses mathematical laws to break physical laws even more than they already have been. Currently, Kyubey prefers the witch system over grief cubes as the energy output is superior. But if we could guarantee income that immediately scales infinitely to Kyubey's capacity for processing it, then we would have incredible leverage to negotiate for it to stop meddling with earth. And since we control the capability, we can easily stop the spigot if it reneges, which ensures compliance.

By "solve", it's more something like "threaten to make one of the aspects of the quest boring with cheap hacks and therefore should be and is banned like path to victory wishes". Like if Superman had the power to punch entropy in the face and stop it that way.
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You know, it strikes me that all magic use generates Grief. More magic use = more Grief. Perhaps we could use our power to manufacture infinite Grief, or at least vast amounts of it, tossed directly to the Incubators to buy them off.

Asking them what they actually do with the Grief is something we should really do before testing that, though, since they're not exactly the most logically consistent and prone to working out the consequences of things ahead of time.
 
Suleverf said:
This is what I meant:

It would be the holy grail of energy that uses mathematical laws to break physical laws even more than they already have been. Currently, Kyubey prefers the witch system over grief cubes as the energy output is superior. But if we could guarantee income that immediately scales infinitely to Kyubey's capacity for processing it, then we would have incredible leverage to negotiate for it to stop meddling with earth. And since we control the capability, we can easily stop the spigot if it reneges, which ensures compliance.

By "solve", it's more something like "threaten to make one of the aspects of the quest boring with cheap hacks and therefore should be and is banned like path to victory wishes". Like if Superman had the power to punch entropy in the face and stop it that way.
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The restriction was against powers that solved the problems on their own, not against powers that could be used to solve the problems.

We don't know enough about Kyubey's operation to know whether multiplied Grief being Witchy would matter in the slightest.

Giving up because we've convinced ourselves something won't work before we even try strikes me as the surest way to lose the quest.
Wyrd said:
You know, it strikes me that all magic use generates Grief. More magic use = more Grief. Perhaps we could use our power to manufacture infinite Grief, or at least vast amounts of it, tossed directly to the Incubators to buy them off.

Asking them what they actually do with the Grief is something we should really do before testing that, though, since they're not exactly the most logically consistent and prone to working out the consequences of things ahead of time.
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We made Kyubey that very offer at the start of the quest. He turned his nose up at the yields.

We haven't talked about this with him since learning more about our powers.
 
Nerevar said:
Giving up because we've convinced ourselves something won't work before we even try strikes me as the surest way to lose the quest.
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If we want to add feeding Banach Tarski grief to Kyubey to our science list I'm fine with that. It's just my impression of the quest structure that this shouldn't work.

Wyrd said:
or at least vast amounts of it, tossed directly to the Incubators to buy them off.
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I posit that for a successful bribe we need a continual flow of grief that generates energy on a similar scale to Gretchen. And also that the grief flow can be halted from our side at any point, otherwise Kyubey can take our bribe and then continue the witch system anyway. I'm skeptical that normal bounded grief flows (rate limited by however many magical girls decide to help out) can approach Gretchen. However, an unbounded infinite flow (e.g. hax) would allow this.
 
Suleverf said:
If we want to add feeding Banach Tarski grief to Kyubey to our science list I'm fine with that. It's just my impression of the quest structure that this shouldn't work.
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Well, if my vote goes through then we can probably do that when we interrogate him.

And he'll probably be open to helping out with Science! in general, provided that it benefits him.

However, the "we shouldn't trust him as far as we can throw him" mantra still applies until we can figure out how to align his goals with ours.
 
Arum60 said:
Well, if my vote goes through then we can probably do that when we interrogate him.
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Your vote is to ignore the ongoing event and work on the space station and Kyubey instead. It's not gonna go through. A vote that's more likely to go through would look more like:

[X] Talk to Homura and Hitomi about the acquisition of a building for Yuki
-[X] Mention Mika wanting a meeting to Hitomi
[X] Really quickly finish off the previous topics:
--[X] You're planning on heading to Kyoto and Kyushu tomorrow to talk to the Murasaki Shrine Maidens and Kagoshima Group. Does anyone want to pass a message along or attend?
--[X] Note that you *do* have contacts in Tohoku and Rissho Universities, for law students.
[X] Drop off the Soujus with Shiogama
-[X] Fly their collection to Niko
--[X] Grab Yuki and fly her back to Mitakihara so she can work on getting a building while you find a bunch of hotel rooms

I'm probably missing stuff, I'm half asleep, but this is the general thrust of what we're doing for the next few updates.

When Suleverf mentioned "our science list," there is an actual list we keep of stuff that we want to try when we have time for science. Now is not when we have time for science.
 
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Torgamous said:
Your vote is to ignore the ongoing event and work on the space station and Kyubey instead. It's not gonna go through. A vote that's more likely to go through would look more like:
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Yea I might need to change the space station part

On the Kuybey bit, I wanted to schedule it, not do it right this second. So something more like:

[X] Schedule a meeting with Kuybey. We shouldn't talk to him right this second for obvious reasons, but we should set it up for later.
-[X] When we do talk to him, ask him ALL the questions.
- - [X] Keep in mind what we've discussed when talking about talking to him.

[X] Torgamous
 
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Arum60 said:
However, the "we shouldn't trust him as far as we can throw him" mantra still applies until we can figure out how to align his goals with ours.
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We can throw him a long way, and actually have at one point, so we shouldn't trust him that far. We can trust him to stick to a system that he is forced to accept. We can work with him somewhat with a system that is clearly favorable to him in comparison to his alternatives, but actual trust should not even be on the board, as trusting it suggests we fell into the critical human weakness of anthropomorphizing the creature and failing to always keep in mind how alien its mind is.

Arum60 said:
Yea I might need to change the space station part

On the Kuybey bit, I wanted to schedule it, not do it right this second. So something more like:

[X] Schedule a meeting with Kuybey. We shouldn't talk to him right this second for obvious reasons, but we should set it up for later.
-[X] When we do talk to him, ask him ALL the questions.
- - [X] Keep in mind what we've discussed when talking about talking to him.

[X] Torgamos's plan seems pretty solid
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It needs to be something like :

[ X] Torgamous

That puts it in the right format for the program to tally it properly. Make sure you spell it correctly, and that you avoid things like that apostrophe s, as the program won't intuit that you were using a possessive, nor understand the rest of that line. Make it hard for Firn to figure out, and expect your vote to get disregarded. I added a space before it so it wouldn't be counted as me making a vote. I'm less sure whether you can have their name plus a separate qualifier.
 
[X] Torgamous

also, damn, y'all really forget the forest for the trees lmfao

we could give Kyubey a billion trillion gazillion tonnes of grief, and that wouldn't be enough, y'all want to know why?
because that's what is not that Kyubey is looking for.
Kyubey explicitly says that the phase change between hope to despair is the most energetic part, in other words, fluctuating emotions going from one state to another(preferibly positive to negative) are the most energetic, not the resulting emotion itself.
so unless we can change our grief back into hope and viceversa, this train of thought is cooked.
 
Mokyu said:
[X] Torgamous

also, damn, y'all really forget the forest for the trees lmfao

we could give Kyubey a billion trillion gazillion tonnes of grief, and that wouldn't be enough, y'all want to know why?
because that's what is not that Kyubey is looking for.
Kyubey explicitly says that the phase change between hope to despair is the most energetic part, in other words, fluctuating emotions going from one state to another(preferibly positive to negative) are the most energetic, not the resulting emotion itself.
so unless we can change our grief back into hope and viceversa, this train of thought is cooked.
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While that is consistent with my interpretation of canon, we have some evidence that Kyubey in this quest is also able to acquire energy by processing the Grief from Grief Seeds. It is likely a secondary energy source at best for him, but even a subpar energy source can outperform a more efficient energy source if you have enough of it.
 
Nerevar said:
While that is consistent with my interpretation of canon, we have some evidence that Kyubey in this quest is also able to acquire energy by processing the Grief from Grief Seeds. It is likely a secondary energy source at best for him, but even a subpar energy source can outperform a more efficient energy source if you have enough of it.
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i mean, does't Kyubey also get energy in cannon from grief itself? like when he ate the grief seed after Sayaka's fight.
so for energy efficiency, we have hope-despair phase change(the most energetic) then contracting(turning hope into a reality) and finally despair(the grief seed)
so unless we're going to go full saturday cartoon magical girl and power the universe with our hopes and dreams, we have to think carefully what to do next.
 
Mokyu said:
i mean, does't Kyubey also get energy in cannon from grief itself? like when he ate the grief seed after Sayaka's fight.
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He took the Grief Seed. He never said what he was doing with it. He implied it was disposal of dangerous materials, though we all know what Kyubey's implications are worth. Still, in the source material, I don't recall any explicit mention of him extracting energy from the Grief Seeds or Grief Cubes he collects. I might've missed something, but my interpretation was that he was just taking them, and likely planting them elsewhere to hatch. And that that's why Charlotte's Grief Seed showed up at the hospital.
 
It's entirely possible that in corners of canon yet unrevealed, Kyubey powers cannons with Grief or uses the Grief Seeds as ammo for same.

Any object capable of storing massive amounts of energy is also capable of being used to release massive amounts of energy -- whether as a battery discharging, or by traveling at sufficient velocity, after all. :D
 
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Mokyu said:
[X] Torgamous

also, damn, y'all really forget the forest for the trees lmfao

we could give Kyubey a billion trillion gazillion tonnes of grief, and that wouldn't be enough, y'all want to know why?
because that's what is not that Kyubey is looking for.
Kyubey explicitly says that the phase change between hope to despair is the most energetic part, in other words, fluctuating emotions going from one state to another(preferibly positive to negative) are the most energetic, not the resulting emotion itself.
so unless we can change our grief back into hope and viceversa, this train of thought is cooked.
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This is part of why I want to ask Kyuubey what it does with the Grief it collects. It would let us know more about what it is actually after in the grand scheme of things, in ways that hopefully would expound upon 'generating more energy'. If we could manufacture Grief, that would be generating energy all by itself. Likewise, I've wanted to see if we could do something with Grief to generate pure or hope aspected magical energy for some time, partly as a way to fuel charging Clear Seeds to prepare for de-Witching. Having a given magical girl provide that same burst of energy multiple times would meet its desires, if your interpretation is accurate, in ways superior to the current system.

Mokyu said:
i mean, does't Kyubey also get energy in cannon from grief itself? like when he ate the grief seed after Sayaka's fight.
so for energy efficiency, we have hope-despair phase change(the most energetic) then contracting(turning hope into a reality) and finally despair(the grief seed)
so unless we're going to go full saturday cartoon magical girl and power the universe with our hopes and dreams, we have to think carefully what to do next.
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The Grief could be being used as fuel, not for the species as a whole, but just to run the Earth operation's systems. We don't know.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Grief isn't solid because of electromagnetic forces, it's solid because it's solid, all the way down past the subatomic scale. Grief is, in fact, a topologically perfect volume, to the point that stuff like the Banach-Tarski paradox which relies on it being infinitely sub-divisible is entirely reproducible. That isn't to say that grief can't interact with electromagnetic forces (it absolutely can, if Sabrina intends for it to exhibit those properties), but grief fundamentally isn't baryonic matter, and it's important to keep that in mind when contemplating its properties.
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I thought it turned witchy when we tried banach tarski duplication.
 
Just to note: We found one approach to making infinite Grief didn't work. That doesn't mean we can't manufacture it in vast quantities some other way, should we decide there is a need for that. Asking Kyuubey what it does with the Grief girls give it is rather important for knowing if we even want to try intentionally manufacturing it.
 
Wyrd said:
Just to note: We found one approach to making infinite Grief didn't work. That doesn't mean we can't manufacture it in vast quantities some other way, should we decide there is a need for that. Asking Kyuubey what it does with the Grief girls give it is rather important for knowing if we even want to try intentionally manufacturing it.
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I mean, manipulating grief causes our soulgem to darken, which then we can pull out for more grief... So we already have infinite grief sort of.
 
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