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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Rainclouds on the horizon. Currently sitting in an outdoor cafe. Wanted to create a roof out of grief to protect against rain. Firn pointed out that it would be the equivalent of a mediator pulling out a gun-shaped lighter during a tense negotiation to light a smoke. Overall, bad idea.
 
I think he said it was more like pulling out a gun and doing a trick shot to fix the AC. And apparently absolutely none of us thought of that except for telling Akiko, 'I'm totally doing this thing'.
 
Firnagzen said:
Let me put it by analogy - two generals, or possibly politicians, or something, are preparing for a truce meeting. And then the mediator pulls out his pistol and does a trick shot to... iunno... adjust the air conditioning, and pulls it off flawlessly. No one's hit or anything, but...

You don't see a problem with this?
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Cannongerbil said:
Rainclouds on the horizon. Currently sitting in an outdoor cafe. Wanted to create a roof out of grief to protect against rain. Firn pointed out that it would be the equivalent of a mediator pulling out a gun-shaped lighter during a tense negotiation to light a smoke. Overall, bad idea.
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Oh! Well they are pretty jumpy.

We're learning!
Our last entrance was colliding in the ground from the sky clothed in hellish wings of grief.

Hopefully when negotiations are concluded we make a grief jet to depart in order to compliment that magnificent introduction.
 
Crasian01 said:
Somewhat off topic, but it's really interesting the differences in how people are devoted to this Golden Ending. Myself, I'm totally okay with making sure Mitakihara is safe and Madoka doesn't make a contract.
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We have near-Madoka levels of broken potential and wished to control grief. We have no excuse for not finding a way to fix everything, ever.

Look at it as a challenge. :D
 
Cannongerbil said:
Do bear in mind that alot of the bad stuff that Megucas get up to can be at least partially excused by the fact that system is deliberately set up to screw them over. Being a Meguca is basically a prolonged death sentence, and just about every meguca who has been alive for more than a couple of years have to have done some pretty messed up stuff to ensure their grief seed supply remains constant. Those that don't have the stomach for that end up being witches.

I mean, if they continue to resort to such measures after we've offered them infinite free cleansings, then sure, feel free to drop the hammer on them, but try not to judge them too harshly for their actions made before that option became available.
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This. As far as I'm concerned, Akiko is officially pardoned of everything she did before we met her, and her only crime is continuing it when she doesn't have to and being The Biggest Douche In The Universe.
 
One has to note that the golden ending also is a bit unrealistic when taken out of the paper, now that you think about it (well, for now it is, again I want to be proven wrong with my statement).

Again, is a wishful thinking, hence why is "Gold".
 
Muramasa said:
If it turns the quest into a fucking chore, I'm dropping that goal like a bad habbit.

If its killing my enjoyment its not worth it.
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I don't mean to be killing anyone's enjoyment here, but there's a certain catharsis in delivering a beating to someone you gave every chance to avoid it. Call me cynical, but I don't think Akiko is going to capitulate to us any time soon. An asswhuppin' is likely going to be necessary. Maybe I'm just not decisive enough, but I don't want to go from "she's an ass" to "gonna open a can of whupass" without some provocation.

Also, not specifically shooting for a golden ending. I simply don't think far enough ahead for that.
 
Cannongerbil said:
Do bear in mind that alot of the bad stuff that Megucas get up to can be at least partially excused by the fact that system is deliberately set up to screw them over. Being a Meguca is basically a prolonged death sentence, and just about every meguca who has been alive for more than a couple of years have to have done some pretty messed up stuff to ensure their grief seed supply remains constant. Those that don't have the stomach for that end up being witches.
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If she can casually drop twenty seeds on hiring muscle, this was selfevidently not limited to actions necessary to ensure survival. This isn't 'participation in an economy involving slavery' unpleasantness, it's 'working your slaves to death because why the fuck not?' gratuitous abuse, which the exigencies of meguca neither justify nor excuse.
 
FlatlineAskari said:
If she can casually drop twenty seeds on hiring muscle, this was selfevidently not limited to actions necessary to ensure survival.
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And what are the long term survival prospects of someone who can't afford to hire muscle?

Gadjo said:
However, if she's still farming familiars when we offered her unlimited cleanings, we'll need to put a stop to that, as she no longer has an excuse.
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Cannongerbil said:
I mean, if they continue to resort to such measures after we've offered them infinite free cleansings, then sure, feel free to drop the hammer on them, but try not to judge them too harshly for their actions made before that option became available.
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We've existed for, what, a week or two? That's not long enough for anyone to believe in the changes we can make to the system.
 
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Can I just point out that wanting to prevent Madokami while not making a sincere and dedicated effort to make a system that is equal to or greater than hers is like....COMPLETELY UNETHICAL? We would be knowingly consigning countless souls to eternal damnation to protect a single person purely because we think she's cute and know her personally.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Can I just point out that wanting to prevent Madokami while not making a sincere and dedicated effort to make a system that is equal to or greater than hers is like....COMPLETELY UNETHICAL? We would be knowingly consigning countless souls to eternal damnation to protect a single person purely because we think she's cute and know her personally.
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Isn't that why we're experimenting and trying to unwitchify grief seeds?
 
FlatlineAskari said:
What, not bothering to actively hunt down familiars is murder? By that standard, we're culpable for every second we aren't hunting. Mitakihara almost certainly isn't witch-free, and it could've been by now.
But, yes, in principle - if she's actively killing people for shits and giggles, and won't stop no matter what we say, we should do something about it.
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Actually, it's pretty close to Witch-free. Between Sabrina's sensing range, several MGs coordinating their efforts, and the ease with which Sabrina takes out Witches (being made of grief in a world of grief against a high-level grief-manipulator is...not a winning proposition) seems to keep the regions of Mitakihara we "have jurisdiction over" fairly Witch-free. Mami's ideals about keeping the public safe from all familiars and Witches probably contributes to that. Additionally, we've prevented several witchouts already--Nagisa, Masami and Hiroko, for starters.

But your reasoning is correct; not hunting down familiars is not equivalent to murder at all. MGs are NOT public defenders any more than they want to be; they need grief seeds to survive and directly hurt their chances of survival by attacking familiars instead of letting them grow into Witches. Not only that, but they don't get paid or acknowledged for the work they do in protecting others, yet they still have to deal with non-magical concerns (food, shelter, money, education and work, friends and family).

Of course, there is a huge difference between letting familiars do their thing and actively feeding people to familiars (or luring people to them). Not having an obligation to save does not mean it's okay to actively murder.
 
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AuraTwilight said:
Can I just point out that wanting to prevent Madokami while not making a sincere and dedicated effort to make a system that is equal to or greater than hers is like....COMPLETELY UNETHICAL? We would be knowingly consigning countless souls to eternal damnation to protect a single person purely because we think she's cute and know her personally.
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As point one, we have no right to demand madoka sacrifice herself. If we think tehres no other way to improve things, we can bring it up to her, but its still up to her.
And as point two, there may be other ways. Which is what were searching for. We already know we (or our witch) have in theory the power to change things.
And three, where do you get "eternal" damnation from? Nothing ive ever seen indicates eternal (although we may not know what incubators do with the things).

Theres also the possibility taht letting madokami happen will lead to Rebellion, and tehre things may be more muddled (although we probably dont know what happend).
 
It also holds to reason that, if Sabrina is the result of Madoka's wish to fix everything, then Sabrina already has the potential to fix everything without breaking Homura/Madoka.

In other words, this will be an eventual SCIENCE victory, not a Religious one. Or a military one.
 
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SaltyWaffles said:
It also holds to reason that, if Sabrina is the result of Madoka's wish to fix everything, then Sabrina already has the potential to fix everything without breaking Homura/Madoka.

In other words, this will be an eventual SCIENCE victory, not a Religious one. Or a military one.
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With a good smattering of Diplomatic and Cultural sprinkled in, too, most likely.
 
Random832 said:
And what are the long term survival prospects of someone who can't afford to hire muscle?
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There's a continuum, no? At the one end, grief management is an unproblem, and niceties like 'not making enemies of everyone around you' have priority, for pragmatic reasons if nothing else. At the other, securing a grief seed supply is an all-consuming problem - pause to worry about anything else, and you're dead.
I think it's highly unlikely that Sendai, with their lucrative setup with Rin and four hunters on top of that, are so far down the latter end of the spectrum that (unsustainable) extortion is a necessity, particularly in light of the other groups we've met who think this is out of line.
AuraTwilight said:
Can I just point out that wanting to prevent Madokami while not making a sincere and dedicated effort to make a system that is equal to or greater than hers is like....COMPLETELY UNETHICAL? We would be knowingly consigning countless souls to eternal damnation to protect a single person purely because we think she's cute and know her personally.
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Madokami end does mean conceding the Real, one way or another. A plan that boils down to 'fuck this, ABANDON UNIVERSE' sounds like a reasonable enough fallback, but ain't exactly optimal outcome material.
 
Don't forget the group that back Sendai will want their share of stuff, too. Sendai promised what, 20 Seeds, I think? Should we offer free cleanse to them, as welll?
 
theweepingman said:
Don't forget the group that back Sendai will want their share of stuff, too. Sendai promised what, 20 Seeds, I think? Should we offer free cleanse to them, as welll?
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They only want their share of the promised grief seeds. Other than this, they have no other reason to get involve in this war...

Actually, Akkiko would still think she has the upper hand in all this UG matter because of this.
 
Xexilf said:
As point one, we have no right to demand madoka sacrifice herself. If we think tehres no other way to improve things, we can bring it up to her, but its still up to her.
And as point two, there may be other ways. Which is what were searching for. We already know we (or our witch) have in theory the power to change things.
And three, where do you get "eternal" damnation from? Nothing ive ever seen indicates eternal (although we may not know what incubators do with the things).

Theres also the possibility taht letting madokami happen will lead to Rebellion, and tehre things may be more muddled (although we probably dont know what happend).
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1) We already know what Madoka would choose by way of meta. The only reason she won't choose that answer is if we provide a better one or we actively work to undermine her agency and infantilize her.

2) Right, so we're pretty much obligated to pursue Gold End, morally. That's my point.

3) Grief Seeds are basically infinite-energy batteries, which emanate grief for as long as they exist, without end. What Kyubey wants to do with them is pretty fucking obvious.
 
Aura, we can only break the system on this planet. If the incubators have set up the puella system on any other planet, then by your argument we are morally obligated to get Madoka to wish away witches.
 
AuraTwilight said:
1) We already know what Madoka would choose by way of meta. The only reason she won't choose that answer is if we provide a better one or we actively work to undermine her agency and infantilize her.

2) Right, so we're pretty much obligated to pursue Gold End, morally. That's my point.

3) Grief Seeds are basically infinite-energy batteries, which emanate grief for as long as they exist, without end. What Kyubey wants to do with them is pretty fucking obvious.
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1) We know that the madoka of that future did chose that in this particular situation. We still have no right (although we dont even have the capability, so this is moot) to force her. For all we know after meeting us she would chose differently. Hell, after seeing our witch experiments, she may end up being the one who makes the wish we debated but didnt (to restore witches) istead of the destroy witches wish of canon. Who knows where that leads.

2) Arguably pursuing a good end for everyone is what you are always morally obligated to. Were just in the situation of knowing that ridiculously much is at stake and good endings are possible. Its more a matter of scale than any moral difference to most situations.

3) Since ive heard different theories about this, its far from that obvious. Esspecially since if production of grief seeds was all he was after, there would likely be better ways. He also metiond the conversion of hope to despair as what he mainly harvests. Debating this would get off topic, but theres no proof that it means eternal suffering. It may just as well mean soul destruction or any number of otehr things.
 
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