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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Aranfan said:
Hmm. I don't think the kyubey warning sunk in as thoroughly as I'd have liked.
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There's also the other issue that we can't just openly declare to being the rat's enemy, as it's possibly, probably, a Kardashev Type V civilization and fighting it without some kind of Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann-style power up, as Homura did in the timeline we don't want to happen, is an exercise in futility. But we have time to deal with the rat; getting Homura and Mami into better head spaces and teaching them proper information hygiene is more important.

Burned_Cookie said:
Don't be a quitter! We can beat even decay if we work together!
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This, on the other hand, might be a good sentiment to express to Kyubey if and when we reach the point where we're in a position to negotiate with it. It's important to keep in mind that, while it is currently acting evil, Kyubey isn't really committed to being evil, or really even cognizant that its actions are evil. It has no emotions, no empathy, and when it harms others it doesn't understand the pain that it causes because it can't. And so, while we need to fight against it for now, we should also keep in mind that if we can present magic as a better alternative to grief collection to its goal of entropy reduction then it will suddenly become a very strong ally.
 
TheEyes said:
There's also the other issue that we can't just openly declare to being the rat's enemy, as it's possibly, probably, a Kardashev Type V civilization and fighting it without some kind of Super Tengen Toppa Gurren Lagann-style power up, as Homura did in the timeline we don't want to happen, is an exercise in futility. But we have time to deal with the rat; getting Homura and Mami into better head spaces and teaching them proper information hygiene is more important.


This, on the other hand, might be a good sentiment to express to Kyubey if and when we reach the point where we're in a position to negotiate with it. It's important to keep in mind that, while it is currently acting evil, Kyubey isn't really committed to being evil, or really even cognizant that its actions are evil. It has no emotions, no empathy, and when it harms others it doesn't understand the pain that it causes because it can't. And so, while we need to fight against it for now, we should also keep in mind that if we can present magic as a better alternative to grief collection to its goal of entropy reduction then it will suddenly become a very strong ally.
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You know what would be a fascinating wish? That Kyubey could understand good and evil. That they'd get why what they're doing is wrong and how much pain they caused. I don't think I've seen that done anywhere, have you guys?

Also yes, we're theoretically all on the same side here. Convincing Kyubey to not see us as fuel would probably be safer than trying to fight them.
 
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Architect Iront. said:
You know what would be a fascinating wish? That Kyubey could understand good and evil. That they'd get why what they're doing is wrong and how much pain they caused. I don't think I've seen that done anywhere, have you guys?

Also yes, we're theoretically all on the same side here. Convincing Kyubey to not see us as fuel would probably be safer than trying to fight them.
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I have the vague notion that getting Kyuubey to understand the concept of good and evil would be somewhat pointless, if one's goal was to stop him from doing this entirely. He'd probably still keep going, either because he figures the evil is necessary to slow down decay, or that it would be even more evil to simply let the universe die of heat death.

It would be interesting to see how it conducts everything else, however. See if it continues to try and push magical girls over the edge like he tends to do, tries to manipulate things in the background, and the like.
 
Aranfan said:
Hmm. I don't think the kyubey warning sunk in as thoroughly as I'd have liked.
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Unfortunately, it's about as direct as we can be just now due to potentialbomb risks. The hope is when Kyubey drops it on her, she'll remember this conversation and realize we knew, and remember we were trying to tell her to come talk to us when it happened. It isn't a great solution, but it's more insurance than we had before.
TheEyes said:
This, on the other hand, might be a good sentiment to express to Kyubey if and when we reach the point where we're in a position to negotiate with it. It's important to keep in mind that, while it is currently acting evil, Kyubey isn't really committed to being evil, or really even cognizant that its actions are evil. It has no emotions, no empathy, and when it harms others it doesn't understand the pain that it causes because it can't. And so, while we need to fight against it for now, we should also keep in mind that if we can present magic as a better alternative to grief collection to its goal of entropy reduction then it will suddenly become a very strong ally.
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Even if we can present him a better alternative, we need to watch out for the inevitable betrayal. Kyubey had a mutually beneficial relationship with Magical Girls during the Wraith timeline. He betrayed that relationship the instant he got even the hint that there was more profit to be made with Homura's story about the original Witch system. It may be possible to work with him on some things, but he can never be fully trusted, and as such he can never really be our ally.
 
Kyubey is likely some kind of strong AI given the primary goal of extending the lifespan of the Universe. He will always pick the quickest and most efficient way of doing so. If turning the Earth into a nuclear hellscape will get him an iota closer to his goal faster than any alternatives then that's what he will do barring any built in restraints. He can not be our friend. At best we can be useful tools. He will gladly work with us if doing so is the best way forward for him but he will not hesitate to stab us in the back if doing so has a better return on his efforts. Do not forget this.
 
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Architect Iront. said:
You know what would be a fascinating wish? That Kyubey could understand good and evil. That they'd get why what they're doing is wrong and how much pain they caused. I don't think I've seen that done anywhere, have you guys?

Also yes, we're theoretically all on the same side here. Convincing Kyubey to not see us as fuel would probably be safer than trying to fight them.
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No, the best wish would be to pull an Eragon - that it UNDERSTANDS what it does to people.

basically, what Rebellion!Homura inflicted on it.
 
V01DRei said:
No, the best wish would be to pull an Eragon - that it UNDERSTANDS what it does to people.

basically, what Rebellion!Homura inflicted on it.
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This was the intent of the wish, even if I didn't phrase it quite right, so yeah, this. A Kyubey that's no longer gung ho about getting every magical girl to witch out as fast as possible would be a fascinating read. What's more, I can see the type of girl that would make this wish in the first place and have an idea of the powerset that would stem from it.

In brief, she would be an older, more mature magical girl who's initial reaction to being approached by Kyubey is to go, "Yeah, I can think of a couple of damn good wishes I'd be willing to pay any price for, but I'm going to wring every last detail from you first so I know what I'm getting into." She'd then discard those other ideas to make this wish in a fit of rage once it fully sank in what Kyubey was doing, in particular contracting girls specifically to witch them out as early as 8 years old, and that it doesn't understand why that's so appalling.

"Fine, then. I changed my wish. I wish you got it, Kyubey. That you understand what the hell you've been doing to these poor girls and why it's horrifying. Choke on your sins."

The powerset, then, would be a form of projected mental images or shared senses focused around making the user understood. Think Mama Mathers, but with no ability to read other people and significantly scaled down.
 
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jmcdavid said:
Well, there is that one doujin where Kyubey was not manipulative and actually was the Mentor Mascot he acted like in canon.
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If I recall correctly, the name of that Doujin was "Thanks Kyubey!"

In it Kyubey did some two things of note that set it apart, aside from saying up front everything that's happening: Expressing sadness at the death of a witch, and granting a wish to revert a witch back into a meguca.
 
V01DRei said:
No, the best wish would be to pull an Eragon - that it UNDERSTANDS what it does to people.

basically, what Rebellion!Homura inflicted on it.
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Great reference to open the thread to, all I ever hear anyone say about one of my childhood favorites is that the movie was trash (which it is) or they call the author a hack for reasons.

The Inheritance Cycle was a really good series and the way Eragon beat Galbatorix was actually cool.
 
memoryofglory said:
Great reference to open the thread to, all I ever hear anyone say about one of my childhood favorites is that the movie was trash (which it is) or they call the author a hack for reasons.

The Inheritance Cycle was a really good series and the way Eragon beat Galbatorix was actually cool.
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I've only watched the movie and Dominic Nobel's comparison between the book and movie. According to Dominic despite having some really cool ideas and concepts, The Inheritance Cycle is pretty much a rehash of Star Wars.
 
King Washington said:
I've only watched the movie and Dominic Nobel's comparison between the book and movie. According to Dominic despite having some really cool ideas and concepts, The Inheritance Cycle is pretty much a rehash of Star Wars.
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Inheritance Cycle feels like it started off as 'What if Star Wars happened in a Tolkien-esque setting' and then developed organically from there. There is a lot of Star Wars in it, but it's hardly the only thing guilty of that (looking at you Star Trek 2009). Heck Star Wars itself isn't even innocent of rehashing Star Wars. Reading the Inheritance Cycle is a much better use of time than watching the Sequel trilogy. Also if you invested the time to watch the godawful movie you might as well read the actual good part of the franchise. It's by no means perfect or a masterpiece but it's worth the read.

This is a bit of a derail and I don't really know how to loop this back around to Madoka. Do we know if the Soujos can do anything with all the soul gems they collected? I assume it would've already come up in conversation if they use the powers of the girls they steal, but how clear is the source material on their limits? I've only seen the anime, Rebellion, and Magia Record. And can they do things with the gems outside of somehow stabilizing them? Can they talk to all the girls they've turned into jewelry? Hopefully all their captives are just in the equivalent of a coma, but I suppose even complete sensory deprivation or being gloated at by a couple of lunatics are both still better than witching out. The Soujos' have fire & ice combat magic IIRC, but their 'required secondary powers for being a meguca serial killer' might actually be useful.
 
Angrygenius said:
I have the vague notion that getting Kyuubey to understand the concept of good and evil would be somewhat pointless, if one's goal was to stop him from doing this entirely. He'd probably still keep going, either because he figures the evil is necessary to slow down decay, or that it would be even more evil to simply let the universe die of heat death.
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He would, however be open for alternative options, that, while slower, still did their jobs.

Like having Meguca generate grief in their day to day lives, now a lot more as they can afford to spam magic for any reason, and harvesting that via clear seeds or more moral alternatives.

Sure, that system is awefully dependant on Sabs, but that would still be the better option for a being running on a closer aproximation of human morals.

King Washington said:
You know I recall a fic that had Kyubey being the creation of a computer from a rather famous short story.

"INSUFFICIENT DATA FOR MEANINGFUL ANSWER."
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Can you perhaps find it? That story has always been a favourite of mine, so the concept sounds intruiging.
 
I feel like this whole "wish for kyubes to understand good and evil" disscussion is missing the fact that everyone's favorite alien does in fact have a system of morality. His system of morality just says what he's doing is fine and good. It's not that he'd sadly and tragically carry on if he knew what he's doing is bad it's that he thinks what he's doing is good. It even says that turning girls into witches is better than having them hunt wraiths. If your looking for a story where coobs understands the pain he's causing your looking for a story where he gains emotions. Like this or this. (I should mention that I haven't read either of these.)
 
Burned_Cookie said:
He would, however be open for alternative options, that, while slower, still did their jobs.

Like having Meguca generate grief in their day to day lives, now a lot more as they can afford to spam magic for any reason, and harvesting that via clear seeds or more moral alternatives.

Sure, that system is awefully dependant on Sabs, but that would still be the better option for a being running on a closer aproximation of human morals.
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Pitching that idea was one of the first things we tried back at the start of the quest. Kyubey wasn't interested.
 
Nerevar said:
Pitching that idea was one of the first things we tried back at the start of the quest. Kyubey wasn't interested.
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That...

That was my point.

Why are you reiterating my point?

Edit:
I think you might have missed what I was quoting. We were talking about QB changed by a strong enough appropriate wish.
 
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