There is the issue that explaining this could make it not work. It's one thing for a protagonist to give an inspirational speech about how people can accomplish anything when they work together, and it's another to say "look, the director isn't picky about how this movie ends, so here's the steps that should lead to a happy ending." The latter kills dramatic tension and dances on its corpse. We might still be able to get Walpurgisnacht to play along if we layer parody on top of the explanation like Discworld's million-to-one shot, but I'd rather not rely on that.

Yeah, this is my major issue with this, @Kaizuki .

Ultimately, Walpurgis wants a dramatic ending to her story. If everyone is expecting a specific outcome because the protagonists planned it out on camera two acts earlier, then obviously something has to go wrong to up the tension.
 
Somehow I have completely missed this so I'll ask: What is the meaning of the phrase "It's about the people."?
 
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Somehow I have completely missed this so I'll ask: What is the meaning of the phrase "It's about he people."?

It means that the meaning of the story that Firnagzen is trying to tell lies in how Sabrina approaches people and tries to make things better by talking to them, not in post-scarcity economics or in high-energy physics or in metaphysical nonsense.
 
I am still at a loss how people came to the conclusion that Walpuris has this powerset. It is a lot of stuff to read into the show.
This is also part of why I want to discuss it openly with Homura and Mami. We've screwed up our interpretations before. Homura has seen Walpurgisnacht winning and losing multiple times. Mami has experienced a wider range of witches with a wider range of powers. Our friends have information that never got into the show or the side materials, and thus is not in our metaknowledge. We need to sanity check our theories with the people in a position to know things we don't.

Recall our initial assumption that Homura was serial killing Oriko to keep her from pulling a repeat? Turned out she stopped and started letting Oriko live and recognized that timeline was an anomoly.

There is a lot we don't know, and I find it frustrating how confident a lot of people are about our metaknowledge and theorycrafting.

Edit:
Hell, we don't even know basic things like the dynamics of familiars growing up into Witches and the circumstances of Witches not dropping Grief Seeds sometimes, both of which are crucial to our dewitching research and which we could ask Mami or Homura about at litterally any time, but we haven't done so because...?
 
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While Walpurgisnacht is an important topic...
It's not a topic I would support bringing up now.
We just had a long emotional talk. After a long long day.
Give Homura some time to process and ask questions. If we start talking about Walpurgisnacht now she will focus on that over everything we said before.
It's high importance, but low urgency.
 
Somehow I have completely missed this so I'll ask: What is the meaning of the phrase "It's about the people."?
  • Adfligo Systema. Our entire purpose is to break the system. PMAS is obviously intended to be a reconstruction of the deconstruction, the Gurren Lagann to PMMM's Evangelion.
  • Heroes should act, from the opening post. We're intended to be going out and proactively fixing things.
  • "Bad things don't happen for no reason."
  • "You can tell your own story with the same pieces, right?", in the context of Madoka not liking how grim 40k was. The implication is obviously that Firnagzen is doing the same thing, using the pieces of PMMM to tell a story that he prefers, one that's less sad.
  • Everything we do, from science to social, we're repeatedly rewarded for inclusion, teamwork, and idealism.
  • I get insightfuls from Firn on posts where I note how our powers appear to be designed to reward teamwork and cooperation.
  • Our powerset is a straightforward solution to the malthusian catastrophe that makes PMMM such a shithole in many cases.
  • Madoka literally wished to make the world better. Ultimately speaking, the root cause of PMMM's horrible grimness is that it's a philosophical statement. that philosophical statement is that "Hope is balanced by despair". Everything in PMMM revolves around that concept. In PMAS, that's been explicitly broken by a Madokami-tier Wish, with us as its instrument. The entire point of the quest is to have hope without despair.
  • Whatever nasty thing is talking to us in the invisitext, being WAFFy with our friend hampers its efforts.
  • Kirika's change to having antimagic in PMAS. The universe is literally telling Oriko to not die. That's as far from dark as you can possibly get.
Vebyast's points are broadly correct here. PMAS is supposed to be a reconstruction, if you prefer the terms.

The thing is, it need not be easy. I delight in wordplay and hiding the answers in plain sight (and for the record, there are still a decent number you guys simply haven't noticed yet). I came into PMAS with a massive, massive freewheeling plan, and I've been writing to that plan ever since, even with adjustments. Kirika's antimagic was one of those solutions I hid in plain sight, and to be frank I've been cackling over it ever since. It wasn't easy to find, but the solution exists.

That aside, it's not, and it's never been, about the universe (or me) making life easy or giving rewards if the genre conventions are adhered to. As a general rule, the answers are hidden in the general direction of being kind, emphatic, and so forth. So continuing to be nice tends to have you stumble over the answers, as has happened before. Quite simply: the answers are in the direction of being excellent to people. They're not in the direction of being Hard Girls Making Hard Choices.

Oh, and one more quote for you guys:
It's always been about people. Mami and Homura and Sayaka and Madoka. Kirika and Oriko. Masami and Hiroko.
I've elaborated on insights mined out from this direct statement of authorial intent from a normally very cagey GM, ones that have largely paid off for the thread (with thanks to others, particularly @Kaizuki working with @Redshirt Army, for being able to actually put the theory into practice more often than I've been able to the past year) -- which isn't to say that others have mulled over the matter, just that I'm probably the participant most likely to call back to this particular thread winding through the quest.
 
I've elaborated on insights mined out from this direct statement of authorial intent from a normally very cagey GM, ones that have largely paid off for the thread (with thanks to others, particularly @Kaizuki working with @Redshirt Army, for being able to actually put the theory into practice more often than I've been able to the past year) -- which isn't to say that others have mulled over the matter, just that I'm probably the participant most likely to call back to this particular thread winding through the quest.

I feel like it's mostly that you're the one who cares about it the most.

I don't tend to give a damn about the existence of this stuff except when it suits me to use it for argumentative purposes, because I joined the quest for the express purpose of making the characters happier and so it just... It doesn't matter to me because that was already the point.

There is the issue that explaining this could make it not work. It's one thing for a protagonist to give an inspirational speech about how people can accomplish anything when they work together, and it's another to say "look, the director isn't picky about how this movie ends, so here's the steps that should lead to a happy ending." The latter kills dramatic tension and dances on its corpse. We might still be able to get Walpurgisnacht to play along if we layer parody on top of the explanation like Discworld's million-to-one shot, but I'd rather not rely on that.

...

...

...

...

...

I was gonna say, like, anything in response to this, but...

Yeah, this is my major issue with this, @Kaizuki .

Ultimately, Walpurgis wants a dramatic ending to her story. If everyone is expecting a specific outcome because the protagonists planned it out on camera two acts earlier, then obviously something has to go wrong to up the tension.

...

...

...

What if we did it off camera?

No, seriously. What if we just, sealed envelopes with explicit instructions not to open them until alone. Strict instructions to not discuss the contents whatsoever at any time. Let Firn just fucking write it around as one of those damn -- "What is this mysterious thing that will clearly become plot relevant at some point?"

Though ugh, to be honest, I think there are ways to create drama for WPN's tastes that don't involve keeping this stuff hidden, and I would much rather pursue those than not expose this for Homura.
 
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I mean, I want to make something clear.

PMAS social is way harder than IRL social.

Why?

Two major reasons.

You're not allowed to make single statements and measure single reactions, and you don't have the IRL luxury of lots of time to get to know someone. We're running on hideously limited information much of which is metaknowledge and we have to get whole conversations right on a handful of feedbacks.

This shit is horrifically hard and I cannot count the number of times I have thought to myself, "If I could make ten statements and get responses to each one before the next I could get twice as good a result as this 10,000 word convo in 1500 words."
 
This shit is horrifically hard and I cannot count the number of times I have thought to myself, "If I could make ten statements and get responses to each one before the next I could get twice as good a result as this 10,000 word convo in 1500 words."

That's exactly what intent based voting is for - Sabrina's OODA loop is waaaaaaaay shorter than the threads, so it's way better to delegate stuff to her instead of giving her things to say verbatim.
 
Though ugh, to be honest, I think there are ways to create drama for WPN's tastes that don't involve keeping this stuff hidden, and I would much rather pursue those than not expose this for Homura.
The Golden Ending seems like the obvious dramatic win to target. All our friends having grown as people, overcome their inner demons and working together for the first time since Loop 1. If that isn't epic enough for Walpurgisnacht, nothing ever will be.
 
That's exactly what intent based voting is for - Sabrina's OODA loop is waaaaaaaay shorter than the threads, so it's way better to delegate stuff to her instead of giving her things to say verbatim.

The problem isn't "oh Kai can't do intent based voting." (Though I have to say, for a while that was the case lol...) The problem is that Sabrina isn't sufficiently independent to take an intent based vote and make ten sequential major shifts. Three at best, I'd be surprised to see two.

Clarification: this is an inherent problem. Ten sequential shifts would break quester agency.
 
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That's exactly what intent based voting is for - Sabrina's OODA loop is waaaaaaaay shorter than the threads, so it's way better to delegate stuff to her instead of giving her things to say verbatim.
Actually... that brings to mind a thought I had on reading the update.

I think Sabrina might be getting "smarter" in how she parses our broad-brushstroke votes, and more able to combine losing votes into the winning vote constructively.
 
The Golden Ending seems like the obvious dramatic win to target. All our friends having grown as people, overcome their inner demons and working together for the first time since Loop 1. If that isn't epic enough for Walpurgisnacht, nothing ever will be.
Actually, that brings up a point.

Assuming Redshirt is correct in his assumption that the stage witch only loses because it would make a good story, and she is in control the whole time, then we may win for a different reason:

Simply put, the addition of feathers means that Walpurgisnacht is no longer expected to be the 'final boss'. Which means that it is possible that her having control of the fight will weaken due to this fact, because she is no longer the final act, but a prelude to it. The lead-up to the final battle, if you will.

This theory of course assumes that Feathers will come down to attempt to smite us sometime after the battle with Walpurgisnacht. Which ma or may not happen.
 
You know I'd be morbidly curious what a "PMAS Gone Horribly Wrong" would look like, with the players deciding to harness their inner GEOM and go full Hard Girls Making Hard Decisions.
 
*sighs*

Alright, I've got a confession to make.

I stole Firnagzen's notes in an alternate timeline where Kennedy wasn't assassinated which almost resulted in World War Three, yes, again.

Unless you want spoilers, this is the place where you should stop reading.

Okay? Okay.

So, Walpurgisnacht has a hidden counter that raises up with each Meguca we recruit for the final confrontation, raising again for each of them depending on how high their Social Link is. The higher the counter is, the more phases she unlocks.

That means that she becomes more powerful the more effective our assembled force is, up to and including Proto Kriemhild Gretchen.

So, in the final phase, once Walpurgisnacht starts turning upside down to destroy the city ( and possibly Japan ), we get to fight the real Walpurgisnacht on the gear at her base, which, need I remind you, is tilting. The real Walpurgisnacht is an assembly of a hundred plus Guca-Shades who sit on the Greek-style forum around the amphitheater which shows the shit Gubdam Walpurgisnacht is wreaking in real time, but once we crush the party, they start screaming at Sabrina specifically for breaking the fourth wall, copying their shtick and Mary Suing their performance. Then the amphitheater becomes an arena and our Meguca Force has to fight wave after wave of Guca-Shades, while one of them is ineffectually screaming at the rest and calling for moderators to stop this shit. Then, after the last wave, Walpurgisnacht finally stops and starts disintegrating, only to stop doing that too after a few seconds. The world greys out as if Homura used her powers, but she obviously didn't, but before we figure out anything else, that one Guca-Shade who was trying to stop the others appears in front of us and starts explaining everything.

Turns out, Homura's Wish was unsurprisingly vastly beyond her Potential, so the actual thing she could hope for was a poorly made Madoka-simulacrum somewhere between a person and a familiar, who pretended not to know who Homura was so she could meet her again for the first time, only to sooner or later realize that she was a fake and Witch out.

But, Walpurgisnacht is actually an acausal being approaching something resembling a godhood after all the Witches they omnomnomed. Sometimes, they attack cities to devour Witches and watch stuff blow up and allow Meguca defenders to "defeat" them, only to return a few decades later.

So, one of the collective heard Homura's Wish and decided to help her out, at first mostly because she was bored and wanted something interesting to happen. She linked Homura's Potential to Walpurgisnacht, which allowed her to become another acausal entity with the power to "look behind the curtain" and "rewrite the script". After explaining that, she flat out asks Homura why else she thought her Shield had suspiciously similar-looking gears and then starts screaming at her for being so bad at this that she actually started rooting for her dumb ass. And yes, she actually wants us to win, because the gig became stale and dumb after a few hundred times they did it, which wasn't helped by Homura failing against them so many times, when the prerequisite for defeating them was literally to recruit anyone else beside herself and fight together.

So, she started noticing that the one girl Homura is trying to save becomes more and more powerful with each timeline, and quickly figures out the rest of the script that if it doesn't stop, she'll become a goddess that creates heaven for Magical Girls, which sounds pretty swell.

And then she accuses Sabrina of ruining it with her fix everything shit and calls her a derivative work that doesn't mesh with the tone of the series. After calming down a little, she says that this isn't the end, because even though the Fluffy Wolf Madoka no longer exists in this universe, the echo of her still does. And the UKG definitely exists, because she's the collection of all despair stored together in one being, which everything gravitates towards sooner or later, and Madoka not becoming a goddess doesn't really stop that.

So yeah, UKG saw this shit, and now she's interested and wants to play, good luck with that.

( if we ask her whether she remembers who she was before at any time, she gets upset, says "it's unimportant, you tart" and then ignores us for the rest of the conversation, only listening to questions from Homura, Sayaka, Kyouko and Mami from then on )

Then she disappears, but the time doesn't resume. Instead, a giant pillar of Grief tears through the sky and falls on Walpurgisnacht who is still frozen in the mid-dissolving. The flood of Grief doesn't stop and starts drowning everything around us, and we have only just enough concentration to create a barrier around us to protect us and the rest of the Meguca Force.

Once it finally stops, we drop the Grief Dome and look around and shit's fucked. It looks exactly like the ruined Earth on which UKG was trapped inside Homura's Shield, only instead of a lifeless wasteland it's all alive and wants to kill us. The air is poison, the earth is writhing, and there are giant tentacles in the sky.

More and more Grief Shades appear around us, forming out from the earth itself, looking kinda like Walpurgisnacht Shades, only there are many, many more, a tiny fraction of the all Megucas who ever fell into despair.

If at any moment our Soul Gem fills up more than halfway with Grief, black feathers start falling from the sky, and the Grief around us starts pulsing. You know, because it wasn't fun enough before that.

And then they momentarily stop attacking, the sky clears from the south a litttle and Madokami appears from the sky through the crack. She starts Befriending everything around us with the Giant Bow of Friendship, only we figure out after a few moments that something's wrong. Madokami isn't winning, exactly. In fact, she looks a little bleak, like a faded out photo reel and grows dimmer with every second. She drops beside us, and continues shooting, but at one moment looks aside and smiles sadly at us, then Homura.

So, from that moment on, everything depends on how far along we helped Homura with her problems. If she's not well off enough. She cracks under the smile, curls on herself and, well, nothing good happens. If she is, she straightens up, walks toward her and presents her with her Soul Gem. Madokami looks shocked. Mami looks shocked. We look shocked. Madokami stretches out her trembling hand to Homura's Souk Gem, and before we can figure out what the fuck it even means ( is she sacrificing herself or something? What the fuck? ), the Soul Gem flares up and Madokami starts glowing noticeably brighter. Then Sayaka smiles and does the same, then Mami, then we, then everyone around us, and we can't quite figure out how many Gucas are around us, only that there are more than we started with. Madokami smiles radiantly, then with a look of determination stretches out her bow, aims at the sky, and fires.

Fade out, epilogue reels.




...Okay, now that I presented you with the most meta animesque final boss battle I could think of, can we please stop speculating about it for awhile? We already know that we need allies and that we need to help out our friends, so how about we focus on that instead of the meta commentary on a battle that's still two weeks away with an opponent of power levels literally being "YES, except if fighting Madokami".

We can discuss it once we start actual preparations, in five years or so.
 

...

...I would not complain in the slightest if Firnagzen decided to crib some of this for the final battle. One of the best parts of writing on a forum like this is that if one of your readers comes up with something better than you were planning, you can just take it and put it in the story with or without pretending it was your idea all along.

That said, this gave me an idea. We can make clones out of grief, multitask like Skitter's preppy daughter, and with Mami's help run our magic vastly outside our normal range. With a little bit of prep work and organization we could be in many places at once provided they're in the same city, allowing for training, socializing, and witch hunting all at the same time. We wouldn't even need to freak anyone out with witch constructs, because we can already mimic sound (music), shape (duh), color (camouflage), and texture. It would allow us to check in on the local Meguca and normal girls who don't have as high a priority on our to-do list as Mami and the Kures. And a seriously doubt Mami would mind helping out with this when she's not in school.

Edit: Crap, just thought of something else. Mika can teleport between her buildings and fold space inside them, but can she make stable portals between them as well? If so, that same city caveat goes right out the window. We could simultaneously operate on a global scale while still maintaining a normal life.
 
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