Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- USA, Midworld world line
Isolation is and always has been the controlling problem. "be Together" properly. There are steps inside that goal.
Measure the "isolation" and work to reduce it.
"Empathy" in conversation.
"Intimacy" in conversation.
Recognize, and disarm fear.
- We saw her fear in the "if you value your current life" talk in the school hallway with Madoka.
We need to give Homura "low stakes" practice time.
This is a type of effort Homura can do well at, now that she knows the "name of the game."
I think some "people watching" passive study would help with signaling skills also. As Magical Girls, we can gossip over telepathy, and Oriko can chime in remotely now... I expect Oriko would actually be good at this part.
Measure the "isolation" and work to reduce it.
"Empathy" in conversation.
"Intimacy" in conversation.
Recognize, and disarm fear.
- We saw her fear in the "if you value your current life" talk in the school hallway with Madoka.
We need to give Homura "low stakes" practice time.
This is a type of effort Homura can do well at, now that she knows the "name of the game."
I think some "people watching" passive study would help with signaling skills also. As Magical Girls, we can gossip over telepathy, and Oriko can chime in remotely now... I expect Oriko would actually be good at this part.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
people watching?
Now picturing Oriko and Homura just watching people walk by while having drinks at an outdoor cafe. With Oriko asking Homura about what she's watching.
We leave Kirika sitting in Oriko's lap to make Oriko feel less threating.
Now picturing Oriko and Homura just watching people walk by while having drinks at an outdoor cafe. With Oriko asking Homura about what she's watching.
We leave Kirika sitting in Oriko's lap to make Oriko feel less threating.
- Location
- Illinois
So apparently the new schedule is that Firn updates Tuesday, I check in on Tuesday and plan out roughly what I want, I work Wednesday and Thursday and then I post a solid vote on Friday before Firn starts writing on his Saturday (our Friday, more or less).
Honestly, I like the initial plan I laid out. We have a clear grasp of something that Homura doesn't understand. We explore it. We explain the "why"s behind it. Super conveniently, it lines up with us being able to say "You did this positive thing Homura."
Let's go knock this one out of the park and walk the bases.
[X] You can do that. (Response to immediate question)
[X] First, though: the things you have done this loop aren't primarily responsible for outcomes like Sayaka calling her "cool."
-[X] Holograms: Homura showing up at MMS the first time and struggling with everything. Homura's first meguca training session. Homura showing up at MMS and tacklehugging Madoka. A truncated version of the "Why would Kyubey do that?" scene eliding all the detail about what, precisely, Kyubey is being accused of. (Expose more detail to Mami, highlight point of next items)
//Illustrate all the ways Homura was losing respect points, and the end result
--[X] Respect is a primary driver of social mechanics. It impacts every facet of others' responses to the person in question. Frequently, it is generated or destroyed by seemingly unrelated things.
---[X] Ex: success/failure at societal benchmarks (school), skill at topics the observer assigns value to (skill as meguca), physical appearance, etc.
----[X] You only had to do two things this loop to get Sayaka to call Homura "cool." You created settings where Sayaka wasn't directly at odds with Homura, and you exposed the fact that Homura meant to fight Walpurgisnacht. The reason this worked is that exposure to the person Homura has become caused Sayaka to develop respect for her. If Homura was the person she was at the start of the loops, this would not have had the results it did. In general, being respected by others makes every interaction with them easier, to a greater degree the greater the respect.
//"You did this, Homura."
-----[X] Holograms in the background, synced up with what you're saying: Homura showing up at MMS and being extremely skilled at everything.
//More illustration, slightly more info for Mami
------[X] (Assuming Mami doesn't throw this out herself) Sayaka is not the only person the difference between then-Homura and now-Homura has impacted. Mami holds her in much greater esteem than she used to. (Let Mami expand on that).
[X] If the above doesn't hugely derail from Homura's original question...
//It probably will.
-[X] "Being charming", as Homura puts it, breaks down into two things: you signal that you are interested in seeing good things happen to the people you're talking with. And you cultivate respect with them. Net result: people feel that they can trust you.
//Raw breakdown of what we do.
--[X] Mami has extensive experience with this and you should expect her to chime in.
---[X] Homura has successfully garnered the respect of essentially everyone in Constellation at this point. Getting people to believe she wants good things for them... It sounds like she hasn't tried in a while.
//Blunt, to the point, message consistent with the first block of the vote.
Honestly, I like the initial plan I laid out. We have a clear grasp of something that Homura doesn't understand. We explore it. We explain the "why"s behind it. Super conveniently, it lines up with us being able to say "You did this positive thing Homura."
Let's go knock this one out of the park and walk the bases.
[X] You can do that. (Response to immediate question)
[X] First, though: the things you have done this loop aren't primarily responsible for outcomes like Sayaka calling her "cool."
-[X] Holograms: Homura showing up at MMS the first time and struggling with everything. Homura's first meguca training session. Homura showing up at MMS and tacklehugging Madoka. A truncated version of the "Why would Kyubey do that?" scene eliding all the detail about what, precisely, Kyubey is being accused of. (Expose more detail to Mami, highlight point of next items)
//Illustrate all the ways Homura was losing respect points, and the end result
--[X] Respect is a primary driver of social mechanics. It impacts every facet of others' responses to the person in question. Frequently, it is generated or destroyed by seemingly unrelated things.
---[X] Ex: success/failure at societal benchmarks (school), skill at topics the observer assigns value to (skill as meguca), physical appearance, etc.
----[X] You only had to do two things this loop to get Sayaka to call Homura "cool." You created settings where Sayaka wasn't directly at odds with Homura, and you exposed the fact that Homura meant to fight Walpurgisnacht. The reason this worked is that exposure to the person Homura has become caused Sayaka to develop respect for her. If Homura was the person she was at the start of the loops, this would not have had the results it did. In general, being respected by others makes every interaction with them easier, to a greater degree the greater the respect.
//"You did this, Homura."
-----[X] Holograms in the background, synced up with what you're saying: Homura showing up at MMS and being extremely skilled at everything.
//More illustration, slightly more info for Mami
------[X] (Assuming Mami doesn't throw this out herself) Sayaka is not the only person the difference between then-Homura and now-Homura has impacted. Mami holds her in much greater esteem than she used to. (Let Mami expand on that).
[X] If the above doesn't hugely derail from Homura's original question...
//It probably will.
-[X] "Being charming", as Homura puts it, breaks down into two things: you signal that you are interested in seeing good things happen to the people you're talking with. And you cultivate respect with them. Net result: people feel that they can trust you.
//Raw breakdown of what we do.
--[X] Mami has extensive experience with this and you should expect her to chime in.
---[X] Homura has successfully garnered the respect of essentially everyone in Constellation at this point. Getting people to believe she wants good things for them... It sounds like she hasn't tried in a while.
//Blunt, to the point, message consistent with the first block of the vote.
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94000130FFF70000
Absolutely the Worst
- Location
- Midwest USA
hold up, i'm not sure that 'being respected in general' thing was what we were trying to emphasize to her here as a goal in and of itself? it feels like that bit went too far down the side-point
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Agreed. Respect as a social endpoint, as something to do by avoiding behaviors that produce disrespect, is not a healthy lesson to teach Homura. It's one thing to say "Sayaka thinks you're cool because you are", and it's another to show her a slideshow of Moemura and tell her not to do that. We don't want Homura avoiding displays of weakness because weakness isn't cool and not being cool leads to disrespect and disrespect means social failure.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I'd rather talk to Homura about social in general? Being called cool by Sayaka was an *example* of things the key line here is " I can't be charming like you".
We managed to give Sabrina a pile of social wins that Homura has basically never managed, and she's basically in awe. Setting aside jokes about Homura being in awe at Sabrina's social skills....
I think Kaizuki is getting narrowly focused on both the Sayaka comment and the use of the word 'charming'. Homura thinks we're charming since we can social.
I mean she's asking us to teach her how to be charming like its some skill on par with shooting a gun or making a bomb. Sure you can learn how to get people to do what you want but that's more manipulation than actual socializing and making friends. What Homura wants (I think) is making friends - gaining trust. Actually *talking* to people - and that is a gradual process as you talk, learn about each other and get a better idea of how they see the world. Yes you can set up first impressions, being the cold aloof exchange student vs the adorable glasses wearing moe blob, but that's just *first* impressions - social is about the gradual accumulation of effects.... ok not all but short time frame high stakes social situations like negotiations etc are a different beast entirely.
Anyway...
Long term any friendship has to allow you to be yourself - a friendship built on lies is doomed because you have to maintain the act all the time. But that's just the end, just as one might dress up for a job interview one can dress up how they talk for initial meetings - that's what social etiquette it formalizes things like introductions, meetings and the like between strangers to allow everything to run...smoother. So initial meetings might have you be formal, and polite but as you meet and talk and learn about each other you can relax and adjust to each other. Eventually you might find an equilibrium in the sense that Sabrina with Mami is likely more relaxed and open then around say...Kyouko.
Gah explaining actual social is hard. *flails*
Or other way to put it.... Homura can't treat social like some sort of game event where she can find *just* the right thing to say and pass the speech check. There's too many variables... there is no way to 'win' social... only to have social advance some other goal.
We managed to give Sabrina a pile of social wins that Homura has basically never managed, and she's basically in awe. Setting aside jokes about Homura being in awe at Sabrina's social skills....
I think Kaizuki is getting narrowly focused on both the Sayaka comment and the use of the word 'charming'. Homura thinks we're charming since we can social.
I mean she's asking us to teach her how to be charming like its some skill on par with shooting a gun or making a bomb. Sure you can learn how to get people to do what you want but that's more manipulation than actual socializing and making friends. What Homura wants (I think) is making friends - gaining trust. Actually *talking* to people - and that is a gradual process as you talk, learn about each other and get a better idea of how they see the world. Yes you can set up first impressions, being the cold aloof exchange student vs the adorable glasses wearing moe blob, but that's just *first* impressions - social is about the gradual accumulation of effects.... ok not all but short time frame high stakes social situations like negotiations etc are a different beast entirely.
Anyway...
Long term any friendship has to allow you to be yourself - a friendship built on lies is doomed because you have to maintain the act all the time. But that's just the end, just as one might dress up for a job interview one can dress up how they talk for initial meetings - that's what social etiquette it formalizes things like introductions, meetings and the like between strangers to allow everything to run...smoother. So initial meetings might have you be formal, and polite but as you meet and talk and learn about each other you can relax and adjust to each other. Eventually you might find an equilibrium in the sense that Sabrina with Mami is likely more relaxed and open then around say...Kyouko.
Gah explaining actual social is hard. *flails*
Or other way to put it.... Homura can't treat social like some sort of game event where she can find *just* the right thing to say and pass the speech check. There's too many variables... there is no way to 'win' social... only to have social advance some other goal.
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I do think that's an angle we need to attack, but only to dismantle and dispose of it. Homura has this idea of us succeeding because we're some kind of gregarious superhuman, and that her only hope of succeeding at social is to emulate us. That has to go, and we won't get rid of it by showing her Moemura. Like, show her these:
Success without charm. Moving from a potential threat to a potential roommate, not by being happy and charming and huggy but by being open and honest about our knowledge and motivations, at least to the best of our ability at the time.
Failure with charm. We weren't being open about our feelings and tried patching that over with goofiness, causing a disaster that was only fixed by saying what we'd been afraid to say to begin with. This also conveniently covers the recovery from mistakes thing that Nerevar has been talking about.
And this sums it up nicely. Someone who actually knows what she's doing and has made a comfortable existence by doing it is not impressed by our finesse, but it works anyway because what we're doing is fundamentally like Homura's trick of offering Mitakihara to Kyouko.
And round it out with some of Homura's social successes. Joking with everyone, inviting Mami to hunt at the hospital, Sayaka deferring to her or calling her Captain Ahab. Homura needs examples of things she's done right to know that doing things right is a thing Homura can do.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah Homura thinks were charming when we are..... not. She's misunderstanding what 'social' is.
- Location
- Illinois
Hm.
The second block -- the response to the "Charming" thing -- bluntly, I could see just nuking that.
Let's see...
Charming... "We're not charming"... "Teaching respect as a social endpoint is bad"...
Yeah, uh-huh...
Hm.
... Ah, I think... I'm pretty sure I understand. It really shouldn't surprise me, it's not like I've said anything this week lol.
So, a few things.
First off: this.
And then... This:
And then... This, which I guess is a subsection of the previous thing:
So, here's the thing. I'm not really looking for... Ways to teach Homura social, or whatever other insanely overblown goal.
We still have confirmation (from earlier) that something is wrong with Homura's understanding of how to learn.
And so what I'm looking for are the things Homura doesn't recognize as mattering.
This isn't about, like, trying to explain to Homura that "Social is all about respect."
It's about -- it's about Homura going, "I can't accomplish these things that are happening in relation to me this loop (Sayaka calling her cool e.g.)" when, in fact, almost all responsibility for that lies with her own accomplishments.
Thesis: Homura doesn't recognize that because of who she has become versus who she was, she has gained a huge amount of respect from the people she cares about that she didn't previously have, and that respect is why Sayaka is calling her "cool", as opposed to some kind of miraculous "charming" effected by Sabrina being the cause of that behavior.
Response: outline the causal mechanism behind this exact thing.
The second block, the trying to describe how to be "charming" thing... Honestly I'd prefer to remove it. It's irrelevant compared to this.
I am baaaaasically a wreck right now and instead of elaborating or making this more readable... I'm gonna have to check out for now. I'll come back, hopefully tonight. Gonna make a goal of exposition-ing this.
The second block -- the response to the "Charming" thing -- bluntly, I could see just nuking that.
Let's see...
Charming... "We're not charming"... "Teaching respect as a social endpoint is bad"...
Yeah, uh-huh...
Hm.
... Ah, I think... I'm pretty sure I understand. It really shouldn't surprise me, it's not like I've said anything this week lol.
So, a few things.
First off: this.
And then... This:
And then... This, which I guess is a subsection of the previous thing:
So, here's the thing. I'm not really looking for... Ways to teach Homura social, or whatever other insanely overblown goal.
We still have confirmation (from earlier) that something is wrong with Homura's understanding of how to learn.
And so what I'm looking for are the things Homura doesn't recognize as mattering.
This isn't about, like, trying to explain to Homura that "Social is all about respect."
It's about -- it's about Homura going, "I can't accomplish these things that are happening in relation to me this loop (Sayaka calling her cool e.g.)" when, in fact, almost all responsibility for that lies with her own accomplishments.
Thesis: Homura doesn't recognize that because of who she has become versus who she was, she has gained a huge amount of respect from the people she cares about that she didn't previously have, and that respect is why Sayaka is calling her "cool", as opposed to some kind of miraculous "charming" effected by Sabrina being the cause of that behavior.
Response: outline the causal mechanism behind this exact thing.
The second block, the trying to describe how to be "charming" thing... Honestly I'd prefer to remove it. It's irrelevant compared to this.
I am baaaaasically a wreck right now and instead of elaborating or making this more readable... I'm gonna have to check out for now. I'll come back, hopefully tonight. Gonna make a goal of exposition-ing this.
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DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Umm I will ponder this.... maybe I'll have something tommarow
Angrygenius
Professional Insomniac
- Location
- Florida
- Pronouns
- Him/He
I´ve had a back problem all day, so I understand being a wreck.
Forgive me for not responding to anything this time around, I just don´t have anything to really contribute to something like this, and I´m kinda busy this week.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think you're on the right track. Convert it into a proper vote, and I'll vote for it. Depending on how much energy I have later, I might give converting it into a vote a shot myself. Only reason I'm not doing it now is I'm exhausted after the week and not thinking as clearly as I'd like to be.
94000130FFF70000
Absolutely the Worst
- Location
- Midwest USA
Yeah I feel mangled too so I can't quite improve this into a formal vote either... shit, should we ask Firn to hold off on the update till something more thought-out has been hammered out?
Torgamous
Aspiring Gynoid
- Pronouns
- She/Her
I don't think your intent matters. I think if we do what you're voting for us to do, what Homura will hear is that social success comes from respect and that respect is attainable by performing or avoiding the list of behaviors you're providing her. That's a lesson we need to avoid, and your vote doesn't do that.
Talking about how Homura is cool now is better accomplished by leaving Mami and Brinapilot to play off each other. Same or greater information content, less risk of being mistaken for instruction, better for Homura's self-esteem which we also promised to work on.
- Location
- Illinois
Well here is the deal. I don't have to work tomorrow so I will stare at this then.
Various drafts of this have had variously many words dedicated to saying "Well, this respect stuff is a big deal but these other things also matter and more and less under such and such circumstances." The big one that I only barely left out was "These things that affect respect basically only do so outside of close friendship at which point you have a whole other bag of things going on, most of which are strictly positive."
Maybe we alternatively nuke this down even more. Maybe it goes like "well Homura is mostly responsible for this, point out why" except I don't actually trust that to get into the details.
Tomorrow.
Meanwhile @Firnagzen I hear you don't like to write on Saturday so why don't you go play POE today and give us some time to sort this out
Various drafts of this have had variously many words dedicated to saying "Well, this respect stuff is a big deal but these other things also matter and more and less under such and such circumstances." The big one that I only barely left out was "These things that affect respect basically only do so outside of close friendship at which point you have a whole other bag of things going on, most of which are strictly positive."
Maybe we alternatively nuke this down even more. Maybe it goes like "well Homura is mostly responsible for this, point out why" except I don't actually trust that to get into the details.
Tomorrow.
Meanwhile @Firnagzen I hear you don't like to write on Saturday so why don't you go play POE today and give us some time to sort this out
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Obviously Sabrina's hivemind is prone to shower thoughts.
- Location
- Illinois
Angrygenius
Professional Insomniac
- Location
- Florida
- Pronouns
- Him/He
My back still fucking hurts AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA
Congratulations on that quick overhaul kitty.
Congratulations on that quick overhaul kitty.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Okay, after a good night's sleep, I see why Torg's plan was speaking to me. Because by "Charm", Homura means "Manipulation". And it's something we've struggled with throughout the quest for largely the same reason Homura has struggled with it. And I think this is a good place to really bare our soul. Not coincidentally, that's also modeling good behavior for Homura in terms of what she needs to do.
[X] "Charming" is sort of the problem. Kyubey is charming. He puts on a cheerful, outgoing facade and has a million years of experience pushing everyone's buttons to get just the reaction he wants.
-[X] Homura and Sabrina are both prone the mistake of treating social as pushing the right buttons. We know things about the people around us that makes pushing buttons easier after all.
--[X] Sabrina's got a track record of failure when she approaches things that way. Things have worked out well for Sabrina when she was EARNEST.
[X] Show the first timestop conversation with Homura, with us going all robotic. This was private time with Homura, so she can say no to showing it to Mami, but we think it will help.
-[X] We weren't being "charming" there by any definition of the word.
--[X] What we were doing there was letting our guard down. We were honest with Homura about what we knew, what we didn't know, and importantly, what we were feeling.
[X] Show the conversation with Mami the day after the Metabomb. This was private time with Mami so she can say no to showing it to Homura, but we think it will help.
-[X] Explain how we were hiding our feelings there, being superficially charming, putting on a goofy fascade, and that was just screwing things up worse.
--[X] Explain how we corrected course and things got better because we started being honest about how we felt.
[X] Show some of Homura successfully connecting with people. Joking with everyone, inviting Mami to hunt at the hospital, Sayaka deferring to her or calling her Captain Ahab.
-[X] Homura finds those successes mysterious because she wasn't trying to manipulate those positive reactions but they came anyway.
--[X] It wasn't Sabrina performing a miracle for Homura. It was Homura letting her guard down and letting her friends get to know her. Making an earnest connection.
[X] There's a difference between earnest and honest that's taken us a while to work out, with the Lichbomb being a great example of us getting the two mixed up
-[X] We aren't being "honest" about the straightforward, raw facts.
--[X] We're hiding infobombs and specific metaknowledge from people and sometimes telling outright bald faced lies to keep those secrets. We try to limit it, but we're doing it.
-[X] We are being "earnest", showing our real feelings for our friends and allies, and they're responding to that.
--[X] You don't have to tell people you're a time traveler or all the horrible things you know are endangering them in order to tell them that you're worried about them and you want to protect them.
[X] "Charming" is sort of the problem. Kyubey is charming. He puts on a cheerful, outgoing facade and has a million years of experience pushing everyone's buttons to get just the reaction he wants.
-[X] Homura and Sabrina are both prone the mistake of treating social as pushing the right buttons. We know things about the people around us that makes pushing buttons easier after all.
--[X] Sabrina's got a track record of failure when she approaches things that way. Things have worked out well for Sabrina when she was EARNEST.
[X] Show the first timestop conversation with Homura, with us going all robotic. This was private time with Homura, so she can say no to showing it to Mami, but we think it will help.
-[X] We weren't being "charming" there by any definition of the word.
--[X] What we were doing there was letting our guard down. We were honest with Homura about what we knew, what we didn't know, and importantly, what we were feeling.
[X] Show the conversation with Mami the day after the Metabomb. This was private time with Mami so she can say no to showing it to Homura, but we think it will help.
-[X] Explain how we were hiding our feelings there, being superficially charming, putting on a goofy fascade, and that was just screwing things up worse.
--[X] Explain how we corrected course and things got better because we started being honest about how we felt.
[X] Show some of Homura successfully connecting with people. Joking with everyone, inviting Mami to hunt at the hospital, Sayaka deferring to her or calling her Captain Ahab.
-[X] Homura finds those successes mysterious because she wasn't trying to manipulate those positive reactions but they came anyway.
--[X] It wasn't Sabrina performing a miracle for Homura. It was Homura letting her guard down and letting her friends get to know her. Making an earnest connection.
[X] There's a difference between earnest and honest that's taken us a while to work out, with the Lichbomb being a great example of us getting the two mixed up
-[X] We aren't being "honest" about the straightforward, raw facts.
--[X] We're hiding infobombs and specific metaknowledge from people and sometimes telling outright bald faced lies to keep those secrets. We try to limit it, but we're doing it.
-[X] We are being "earnest", showing our real feelings for our friends and allies, and they're responding to that.
--[X] You don't have to tell people you're a time traveler or all the horrible things you know are endangering them in order to tell them that you're worried about them and you want to protect them.
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Nerevar
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
[x] Nerevar