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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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My interpretation:
Probably Homura's biggest weakness on the social side of things is that she doesn't know how to show weakness. Her amazing pokerface and general stoicism gives off the impression that she's more sure of herself than she actually is, and when other parties lack the Madoka-tier empathy and good faith to see through her apparent cold-heartedness she comes off as confrontational and antagonistic, and once your foundation is poisoned and the other party is pre-inclined to not interpret you in a positive light there aren't many ways to fix it, at least not many that are useful to Homura.

I dealt with (and still deal with) a very similar problem, but my example probably doesn't translate well enough to be helpful, I'm afraid.
 
Firnagzen said:
"I wanted to scare her," Homura whispers. "I can't- it hurt her, I know it did, but. Scaring her worked. Show her the bad things about magical girls, and she wouldn't Wish until she was pushed."
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Raiseth said:
She lives in a loop of endless repetition, her strategy isn't something unified, her strategy is: try something, if it doesn't work, try something else next. How else do you think she arrived to guilt-tripping Madoka into not taking up a Contract if she loves her family?
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Yep, pretty much. Homura thinks that negative emotions work better than positive ones, basically.

Guilt, fear, rejection.

The problem is, Madoka has a martyr complex and doesn't care how much something or someone is hurting her, she sees that Homura is hurting too and wants to save her. The more she expands on how godawful being a Meguca is, the more Madoka becomes determined to help her.

Well, we shouldn't be explaining that to her, that's for later. Because it's mostly irrelevant, because Homura understands most of it herself and because she's also blaming herself for "being so weak that Madoka has to save her instead of the other way around".

[Q] Tell Homura that you will teach her how to Social on one condition:
-[Q] You will not, in fact, teach her or Madoka how to stop being useless lesbians, that part they have to figure out for themselves.
 
Firnagzen said:
Was the scene in full anime?
The real question, of course, is whether it was subbed or not.
Perhaps. You can't prove nothin'.

Also: First of all, apologies for the late update. It's been a... it's been a good few days. Second of all, a lot of the original vote didn't get used, but that's because Homura decided to take off in a different direction.
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The threadmark for this should probably read Lowlife pt. 36
 
I'm going to throw my two cents in. Both girls value another over themselves. Madoki from.what i have read has a low sense of self esteem. Fear might push her back for the moment. But when your worthless (in your own mind) diving into yhat what scares you? Its easier. Its easier to be brave if you feel your loss doeant matter.
 
Okay. So if I understand correctly, this is not quite as expected - there was the idea that Homura didn't know she was being scary, or why, but it appears now that the intimidation was intentional.
 
So... Because Mami and Sabrina are teaching Homu how to Social:

... I'm envisaging a musical riff on the Arma song, or the song that song is based on (If i can learn to do it).
 
Firnagzen said:
"Homura, look at me?" Mami murmurs. She waits until Homura looks at her, and then she smiles, comforting and gentle. "Homura, I think I can safely speak for both Sabrina and myself when I say that we both know how important Madoka is to you. Sabrina even more so than myself."

Honey-gold eyes flick your way for a second in silent prompt, and you nod firmly but hold your tongue - Mami has something in mind, and you trust her.

"So I can once again speak for both Sabrina and myself when I say that we're not going to tell you what to do," Mami says softly. "We're not going to take over from you, Homura. You gave your Wish for Madoka, and you will fulfill it. We'll be right behind you, showing you how it might be done, but it's your Wish. Your Soul."
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[Q] Kiss Mami like we never kissed her before.

I wonder how many pages of character study did Kai threw out this time?

Also @Firnagzen the threadmark should be pt. 36 instead of pt. 35.
 
Rainbow_Wailord said:
I wonder how many pages of character study did Kai threw out this time?
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*stares at the giant burning pile visible on the satellite photographs*

Not that many, I'm sure. :V

Kaizuki wasn't wrong, you know. Homura doesn't know how to Social, it's just she knows that, too, and poorly tries to supplement it with emotional manipulation instead.

Or not that poorly, sometimes. Remember that time in the Rebellion when she put a loaded gun to her head in order to shock and distract Mami, for example?

Meh. It's that time of the year it seems. Wait for a few minutes and see what you think about it.
 
Firnagzen said:
"It's- it's the closest thing that's come to working," she says, her voice low and choked and pained. "Scare her. Make her hate me, hate magical girls. I- I can't be charming like you. She- Sayaka called me cool yesterday. Madoka is- Madoka."
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I think it's notable here that Homura doesn't seem to draw a practical distinction between hating her and hating magical girls, and from there draws an unstated connection to hating the idea of becoming a magical girl. None of those are really connected, like in this timeline Madoka knows that being a magical girl can suck but she's totally comfortable with magical girls as people and she's more than comfortable with Homura.

I don't know what to do with this note, but I thought it had to be made.

Unrelated, I think that before anything else we need to open the vote something like this:

[] She shouldn't try to be charming like you. She should be charming like Homura. A cool badass who you can't help but admire even while her clear emotional scars make you want to wrap her in a blanket and feed her comfort food forever.

And should we show our thing with Sasa? Being charming like Sabrina doesn't make warning someone not to do something without telling them what that something is a good plan.
 
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...

So this is why we brought Mami: she has fucking hax. Swear to God this girl has magical social powers.

This is also why we asked Homura what her goal was.

*Whistles, long and deep*

Uhhhhh.

Wow. Wowowowowowow.
 
I've decided to voice my own thoughts on this.

As a person who shared some of the difficulties in communication skills that Homura has, one of the most valuable things to learn is that in order to get someone to listen to you, you have to speak in the language that they understand so that you can bring them into context. For example, at the start of a loop, Homura may know exactly how much damage the Endbringer-esque Walpurgisnacht can cause, but she is explaining it to someone as if they will immediately understand it also. Part of the reason why Sayaka is usually hostile is that she is presented with two viewpoints. Homura's arguments are ones that she interprets as pushy, and hostile because she does not have the context to judge for herself. Kyuubey's on the other hand, appears to be direct, confident, and accepted by those she knows by virtue of Mami's own approval.

What Sabrina does, and what we've always aimed for, was to [seek to understand, that we may be understood].
It is our willingness to both trust and open ourselves to people, to speak in the same language and give them the data and proof they need to make the connections themselves, plus the willingness to not take ourselves or others too seriously when needed, that makes us "charming". It is also the very opposite of what Homura has been doing due to her trauma, which is both understandable and makes her even less open.

Therefore, my own advice in this situation (or if the worst happens and time resets), would be this:

[X] Give the following advice to Homura:
-[X] Slowly find people she can trust and practice interacting with them.
--[X]Ask them to tell her when her are not coming across clearly, or when she is doing or saying things that can cause miscommunication.
--[X] Also ask them to teach her how to send and read social nonverbal signals, such as body language or tone. No one can perfect this, but knowing what tone she's making can help her convince or explain to Madoka more effectively.

-[X] Always remember that not everyone can see the same things she can. Sometimes that means explaining things that she would find stupid or obvious to explain.
--[X] And, when explaining, be patient, as they also may have different learning speeds or may find things difficult to accept.

-[X] Give people time to process what she's saying. Or, if they are not able to process it all without Witching, give it to them piece by piece, over time.
--[X] If possible, be there for them while they process it. Support them emotionally and physically if need be.

-[X] Lastly, word her intent into a context that they can understand and accept. For example, Madoka will always be selfless towards those she believes are in need of help, so point her in the direction of how she can help and she will become an ally instead of an obstacle.
 
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Mmm, what was I talking about? Ah yes, vots.

[X] Firstly. Sayaka is calling her cool, because she is cool. She is a goddamn time-traveling Magical ninja girl, her coolness factor is up there with robot pirates and Godzilla in a tuxedo. Don't let her even think otherwise.
[X] But, more relevantly, the only way you know how to get better at talking to people is talking to them. You think you understand. It was very, very hard for her to learn how to talk to people when every decision she took, every word she said felt like it had such high stakes. But it doesn't have to be that way anymore, and it isn't that way anymore, because there are friends surrounding her who will help her and also not blow up if she said something wrong. She's allowed to make mistakes and learn from them.
[X] Practically speaking, her circle of friends is a safe environment where she can interact with people and learn from these interactions. You all like her because you know her well enough, but a new person meeting her might get a wrong impression. She needs to learn how to express herself properly. You're not telling her to jump right into the middle of it, but she needs to engage in the conversation between your friends more often, express her attitudes, her likes and dislikes. She shouldn't feel like an outsider, because she isn't an outsider, she is one of you.
[X] Obviously, she is going to make mistakes. Everyone makes them, even friends argue with each other, heck, you make mistakes quite often enough, but. Since you are her friends, it means you will help her to fix it when she does. Everything can be fixed, and you mean it in more ways than one.

300 words, lol just twice longer than the limit.
Since Homura apparently needs help with attitudes and pressure, there's nothing technical in this vote, all she needs is more experience and more leeway to learn it when everything doesn't explode in her face. But, feel free to disagree, I mean, I don't quite agree with this, it can be better.

Rainbow_Wailord said:
What time of the year? And I'm a bit confused by the last sentence.
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The time of the year when I behave like a responsible participant instead of a shitposter.

Happens roughly once a year, so.
 
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Firnagzen said:
Second of all, a lot of the original vote didn't get used, but that's because Homura decided to take off in a different direction.
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This is why I keep insisting you take liberties, lol. Imagine if you'd kept going O_O

Part of this is pretty simple to handle.

Drafting. I'll convert the format the same way I did last vote when the draft looks good.

[X] The first thing she needs to recognize is that something like Sayaka calling her "cool" is not primarily a result of anything you have done. The last time Homura was on remotely good terms with Sayaka must have been ages ago, and Homura has gained several things since then.
-[X] Respect is an enormous driver of social mechanics, and can come from a lot of sources, but things like... Beauty, or being more skilled at a shared interest -- those are typically major causes. By contrast, weakness in a shared interest or violation of social norms tend to weaken that respect.
--[X] In other words, Sayaka thinks Homura is cool and is willing to listen to her not primarily because of anything you've done, but because of who Homura has become. Things like not being good at schoolwork, being weak as a magical girl, committing faux pas like hugging Madoka immediately upon arriving at Mitakihara Middle... Wearing her hair in pigtails and having large glasses... Those things didn't inspire respect in Sayaka. Homura has completely changed most of that list. Literally all you have done to cause this, has been to get Sayaka and Homura on remotely decent terms by getting across that Homura isn't out to get her or her friends, and let Sayaka know that Homura intends to fight Walpurgisnacht. That was it. That was all it took, because Homura has become someone that Sayaka is inclined to look up to.
---[X] Respond to Homura's responses to this. The tone for this conversation is already set, I'm sure Firn can manage this.
----[X] If asked, "Homura will fight Walpurgisnacht" is maybe the biggest difference between this timeline and others. Knowing Homura intends to risk her life to fight a giant, city-destroying witch does a lot for Sayaka's opinion of her.
[X] If the above doesn't hugely derail from Homura's original question...
-[X] Back to being charming. You do two main things: you do your best to convey to the people around you that you are interested in seeing good things happen to them, and you achieve a lot of respect (even despite your silliness) by way of being powerful, being associated with powerful people, getting results, and knowing all the details about magical girl life. Respect makes people want to believe you, makes them want to listen. It makes being charming easier. The rest of it is just getting people to... Understand or believe, depending on whether you're genuine or a con, that you'd like good things to happen to them.
--[X] Homura barely needs practice commanding respect. At this point, the entirety of Constellation respects her. Out of everyone you know she is the person you respect the most. Getting people to believe she wants good things for them... It sounds like she hasn't tried in a while.

Raiseth said:
[X] Firstly. Sayaka is calling her cool, because she is cool
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What this guy said except also explaining why.
 
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Firnagzen said:
"It's- it's the closest thing that's come to working," she says, her voice low and choked and pained. "Scare her. Make her hate me, hate magical girls. I- I can't be charming like you. She- Sayaka called me cool yesterday. Madoka is- Madoka."
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Make her hate me
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Holy hell.

I do not know how to unpack this.

Homura might be justifying it as "protecting Madoka", but it's probably because she believes she deserves to be hated by Madoka.

Hated for the things she's done. Hated for the things she's had to do.

I'm reminded of a quote from Oathbringer, the third Stormlight Archive novel by Brandon Sanderson.

″'You're not a monster, Shallan,' Wit whispered. 'Oh, child. The world is monstrous at times, and there are those who would have you believe that you are terrible by association.'

'I am.'

'No. For you see, it flows the other direction. You are not worse for your association with the world, but it is better for its association with you.'"
 
Nerdasaurus Rex said:
Hated for the things she's done. Hated for the things she's had to do.

I'm reminded of a quote from Oathbringer, the third Stormlight Archive novel by Brandon Sanderson.

″'You're not a monster, Shallan,' Wit whispered. 'Oh, child. The world is monstrous at times, and there are those who would have you believe that you are terrible by association.'

'I am.'

'No. For you see, it flows the other direction. You are not worse for your association with the world, but it is better for its association with you.'"
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Also, for things she has been unable to do.
 
I think it might also be important to understand exactly how Homura arrived at the fact that fear seemed to be the most successful approach to preventing Madoka from contracting, as well as why it ended up working so well. This way we may better understand why it also seems to fail, and how we can use that to do better approaches at doing it.
 
It does feel like Homura is both more and less socially developed than we expected.

Unfortunately, it feels like Homura may be skipping ahead in what she needs to know, trying to play keep-up out of habit as she has spent entire loops doing, except this time with us.

I can only determine we must run with the 'helping, not leading' conversational approach and hope that Mami steers the conversation as needed.

Homura is used to Sabrina being an oddball factual affirmation android, and is probably already leaning on us to continue that trend, despite her request that we teach.


Does anyone know what style of teaching it is called, when the teacher acts like a search engine for the student?
 
My first thoughts, and I will go with first thoughts since this is social, is ....

.... you don't have to be charming with Madoka - you have to be earnest. Social interactions are basically two things. One is conveying some idea or concept. The other is convincing people to go with your concept or idea. Both start with having to understand the view point of the other person.

Understanding their viewpoint can range from empathy and trying to understand them without directly asking them at that moment, to asking them questions to ensure they understood what you just said. Sometimes you don't need to play multi-dimensional social chess, sometimes you can just talk and figure stuff out that way. Oh sure some people you do *looks at Oriko* but Madoka's not one of those people. If you ask her in good faith what she's worried about, why etc she's likely going to tell you.

Madoka, I feel like, is someone where if you don't know how to explain something to her in a way she understands she will work with you so she CAN understand it so long as you're willing to try. Let her ask questions and so forth.

Social with Madoka basically requires the acknowledgement that communication is a two-way street. You must accept feedback and correct your messaging, so the listener can understand what you want to convey.

Now if you're trying to win her over or do this *quickly*

thats a whole other kettle of fish, and requires understanding people in general and your specific listener, so you can build your message before hand without needing direct feedback

Mind you for someone with Homura's issues I can understand why accepting that you likely cannot just find the *right* answer to use through chance - this is why what 'works' for Houma was the most blunt approach possible illicting the most primal of emotions - fear and hate.
 
When we go to fix Kyouko, I can probably help out more then, because I have an Idea of why her father, the main issue of why she is the way she is, did what he did.

I am somewhat more useless here, though. Sorry.
 
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