Homura does have a considerable advantage in a form of HER THING which she can use without repercussions as much as she wants.

Even Mami can produce only so many teacups before people start thinking she's weird. For Homura there's no such drawbacks, she should play to her strengths.
Homura: Kyubey is quite the trickster, you shouldn't take what he says at face value.
Sayaka: But Kyubey says you-
Homura: *hairflips*
Sayaka/Madoka: *watches in awe*
Homura: I'm sorry, what were you saying?
Sayaka: Duhhhhh...
Homura: Anyway, don't listen to Kyubey about becoming a magical girl. It has ulterior motives for everything it says.
Kyubey: Technically, I-
Homura: *hairflips*
Sayaka/Madoka/Kyubey: *awestruck*
 
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Homura: Kyubey is quite the trickster, you shouldn't take what he says at face value.
Sayaka: But Kyubey says you-
Homura: *hairflips*
Sayaka/Madoka: *watches in awe*
Homura: I'm sorry, what were you saying?
Sayaka: Duhhhhh...
Homura: Anyway, don't listen to Kyubey about becoming a magical girl. It has ulterior motives for everything it says.
Kyubey: Technically, I-
Homura: *hairflips*
Sayaka/Madoka/Kyubey: *awestruck*
Should we tell her to harness this power?

Well, Maybe. But not now. In the future maybe, but not now.
 
QB: Waaaaay ahead of you. Running the universe on Homura clone hairflips now.
Speaking of wich, we are shutting earth down.

*Queue Exterminatus*
 
Cleaning this up some. Thinking about it more, I'm not sure it's appropriate to remove detail from the "dissect the scene" section because, bluntly, the necessary operation is literally exposing as much detail about the mechanics behind that scene as possible.

"We can teach you."

"Tell me how."

- How what we're offering is different from the sources she's tried before

- Actual example

- Get clear exposition of what Homura does and doesn't understand about her actions via that example

[X] Please continue to take whatever liberties you please with this, Firn. The chapters read better that way.

[X] Written exposition on a skill always assumes its audience is proficient in some set of the subskills or other parts the skill is dependent on. The kind of thing she read is going to be aimed at people with a specific skill level: the "generic" one, the one that so many people have because they spent a decade and a half socializing instead of confined to bed rest with a chronic heart condition. Telling someone who doesn't know how to balance that "The first step to running is to balance" is completely useless, and is what she was subjecting herself to.
--[X] Whatever you choose to do with this, Firn, try to use the chronic heart condition bit. Mami doesn't know and it's best she learn.
--[X] "How" you can teach her, then, is this: given an example of her trying to accomplish something, you can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right -- because unlike those guides you can actually teach her about the components she needs to learn about. There are specific things you know she doesn't understand and know you can teach her, and if there are other things she doesn't get that you're not aware of, then you'll figure that out as you go. You expect that even just exposing her to the fact that some of these things exist will help immensely. You just need... Samples.
---[X] Hologram up the scene in the abandoned section of mall, starting with Homura dropping in and ending with Sayaka fire extinguishing her. Include audio. Ask Homura what her goals were going into that conversation, then dissect the scene. Homura may well understand some of what you say; if she does, then make it clear you're laying everything out to see what she doesn't. Pay attention to what Homura does and doesn't understand -- that will direct what we focus on. Keep inviting Mami's input.
----[X] Guidepoints:
-----[X] Point out how Madoka flinches away + other indicators that she is afraid of Homura in this scene. When people adopt certain attitudes towards you, they tend to stop listening to what you actually say. Fear, disrespect, distrust, hatred, etc are all problematic and, worse, generally precipitate each other.
------[X] Explain factors contributing to Madoka being afraid in this scene. The location (dilapidated, somewhere she wouldn't usually go and isn't used to being), the use of violence (taboo, absent from normal life), positioning (Homura standing over Madoka -- height disparity is often intimidating and standing over someone especially signals nothing good), tone (hostile, demonstrate what you mean by that if asked).
-------[X] All of these factors send different kinds of signals, and of varying magnitude, but in this scene all of them suggest threat. What she chooses to say is almost irrelevant at that point, especially to Sayaka, in the same sense that if Mikuni showed up at Madoka's house with a gun, Homura would be unlikely to care about the words coming out of her mouth. Standing over Madoka was probably the worst mistake she made in this case, assuming the violence against Kyubey was unavoidable -- if she'd sat or even just kneeled when Madoka ended up on the ground, Sayaka probably wouldn't have assaulted her and MadoSaya would have been much more willing to hear her out.
-----[X] Her word choice was mediocre. People have to be convinced to do things if they don't immediately see a good reason for doing them, and they're frequently skeptical of things they don't see a justification for. On top of that, people tend to react negatively to being told to do things they don't see a reason to do. From Madoka's perspective, she's found an injured creature. Homura tells her to get away from it and seems threatening, but as far as Madoka can tell that will just result in the creature being hurt more -- worse, Homura is coming off as threatening, so Madoka will be disinclined to listen to anything she has to say. A better option would be to skip the "get away from that creature" bit, kneel, and accuse Kyubey of being dangerous in some fashion -- "a trickster", perhaps, or in some other manner related to things which seem good but are actually Very Bad -- to give Madoka a reason to "get away" from Kyubey rather than just telling her to do it.
[X] Break.
 
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Her word choice was mediocre.
Your word choice is mediocre. We're trying to build her up, right? Stuff like this just reinforces her belief that she's a fuckup. Like, here:
Standing over Madoka was probably the worst mistake she made in this case, assuming the violence against Kyubey was unavoidable -- if she'd sat or even just kneeled when Madoka ended up on the ground, Sayaka probably wouldn't have assaulted her and MadoSaya would have been much more willing to hear her out.
What information does the text before the hyphen convey that isn't present in the text after the hyphen? We can go straight from "here's how you could've deduced how Madoka and Sayaka saw the situation" to "here's how you could've used that information" without stopping in the middle to remind her that she messed up.
 
[X] Answer Homura's question - using family interactions
-[X] Living through hospitalization blocked her normal learning process.
-[X] A lot of the books she's likely read assume a level of skill she hadn't had the chance to develop.
--[X] Imagine if when reading about how to make pipe bombs they'd just gotten into the proportions for the chemicals without first explaining about keeping your workspace clear of open flames because "everyone knows that".
-[X] Books about "better running" don't talk about "basic leg operation." "Everybody" already knows how to balance and flex, so nobody thinks to mention them. Continuing the metaphor, her problems are at a lower level than "how to run", so reading a guide on "how to run" that assumes she knows how to balance and how to flex. It won't teach her what she needs to know. What we can do for her is a little like "physical Therapy," but for communication.
[X] Mastering a skill require prerequisites abilities, we learn them from parent figures and peers.
-[X] The second step is understanding those, and the third is putting all of them together in different ways to make different effects. To go back to walking -- first you figure out that balancing and flexing your leg muscles are things you can do. Then you nail those down. Then after a while you don't even think about those things, you just run or walk.


-[X] We should inventory her skills, so she's going to need to work with us to find those blind spots. We won't judge her for the things she's missing out on.
--[X] Speak up as we feel these things together, it's good for Homura to learn to put into words what she's feeling and struggling with.
-[X] None of this is a limited time offer.
--[X] We're worried she won't followed up because she doesn't want to occupy our time, or can't come up with the questions to ask in the first place. We consider her a priority and want her to consider herself a priority.
--[X] We can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right.
[X] The first thing you'd work on would be signaling, because you know for fact that that's a huge obstacle for her.


[X] Start with a "simulation" exercise, have Homura "show you how she would do X social task with a stranger." Mami plays the other person, we coach Homura. Repeat until progress in understanding. We can do this anywhere, not just on the tower - timestop has advantages? Select background for best effect.
-[X] Schedule an outreach with the unknown potential girls that we detected. Find one or more in public. We will have Homura as the lead, and Sabrina will back her up as we engage in useful, but 'lower stakes' social with new people. Homura has succeeded three times with new people already, we can just expand and extend the circumstances to be more useful to her.
-[X] Games with a social component help too.
[X] Rationally explain why "blame Kyuubey" is a good default to explain flaws she doesn't have an answer for yet.
-[X] Show the Incubator has bias, and that it affects her with the things it says.

Keep Homura front and center - her state of mind and her history.
We don't need to use negative feedback to help.
We can understand how an orphan was trying to learn from "parents" that are actually medical staff, and watching movies instead of living in a family.
 
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Uh, I can't really give an opinion on the vote, but generally speaking, telling someone with negative self-worth that they fucked up, and how, can lead to 2 things:

1) The person takes it at face value, it's not surprised at all, and listen how he did (while doing the mental equivalent of self-flaying, and expecting to fuck up again even knowing how to do things right.)

2) Spiral. Like, not surprised at all, they start thinking, and then they spiral downwards faster than a Zero with a kamikaze pilot.

Negative feedback causes a loop.

Not a good idea, in general. I would know.
 
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[Q] "So, Mami, in previous loops, Madoka would promise you that you wouldn't be alone anymore. That...kind of didn't work out. You kind of lost your head feeling all happy. Then you literally lost your head to a Witch."
Did Homura or Sabrina ever made a head joke in PMAS? I remember Homura made one in PMMM, but I wonder if it ever happened here.
 
Lol, vote responsibly in a quest like an active participant I pretend to be... or shitpost?

Motion carried, motion is final and can't be repealed.

——————

"-you stand accused before the Judgement of the Law of Cycles!" Sayaka proclaims angrily, from the left side of the court, the judge's seat empty, as is customary. "The crimes you are accused of include: loitering!-" Everyone in the courtroom gasps. "-lallygagging!-" Gasps intensify. "-littering!" Gasps intensify. "-lèse-majesté!-" Gasps. Intensify.

"Are there any crimes I am accused of not starting with 'L'?" Sabrina asks unenthusiastically. "... why are talking in English, anyway?"

Sayaka shifts uncomfortably, saying nothing. The rest of Magical Girls seated in the hall look around, as if asking each other 'Do you know why?' 'No, I don't, do you?'

"Never mind that," Sayaka finally says. "You are also accused of-" she pauses dramatically. Sabrina rolls her eyes. "-illicit handholding!"

The hall erupts in bewildered exclamations and angry screaming. One Meguca from the twenty third century faints from shock. Kyouko bolts from the seat she's been seating on, her face twisted in disbelief and the sheer feeling of betrayal.

Sabrina calmly slurps tea out of the papercup she's summoned from the Nth dimension with a twist of Grief. Having finished with it, she demonstratively drops it on the floor of the Great Hall of Judgement of the Law of Cycles, Hallowed Be Her Name.

Another Meguca faints.

Point made, Sabrina disappears the papercup with a snap of her fingers.

She opens her mouth and says with unflappable nonchalance:

"A Guca doesn't just clasp hands and tell, you know."

The hall explodes with shouts and shrieks and screeches.
 
--[X] We can do the same exercise for other incidents. Offer examples and encourage her to come up with examples of her own.
---[X] Sayaka refusing the Grief Seed
---[X] Mami not listening to her warnings about Charlotte

The first one is a bad example as Sayaka was in a middle of a grief spiral at the time, so unlikely that any purely social approach (without involuntary cleansing as a prerequisite) would have helped. I doubt this late in the game Homura could have said anything that would have improved the situation in general or Sayaka's attitude in particular.

That said,

[X] Nerevar
 
Sabrina calmly slurps tea out of the papercup she's summoned from the Nth dimension with a twist of Grief. Having finished with it, she demonstratively drops it on the floor of the Great Hall of Judgement of the Law of Cycles, Hallowed Be Her Name.
Sabs, that's Mami's thing! You can't just take someone else's thing! You already have Maximum Brrrrrain Damage as your thing. At least microwave the tea first....

[X] Nerevar
 
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The first one is a bad example as Sayaka was in a middle of a grief spiral at the time, so unlikely that any purely social approach (without involuntary cleansing as a prerequisite) would have helped. I doubt this late in the game Homura could have said anything that would have improved the situation in general or Sayaka's attitude in particular.
I'm okay with swapping examples out, but I do want at least two examples to get Homura started with. We've previously run into trouble with Homura not following up on things, presumably because she doesn't know where to begin with her questions. The examples are to try and coax her to bring up new ones in the same vein.
 
Mmm. Fine, I'll try this acting as an adult thingy, I've heard it's pretty popular.

Okaaaay.
[X] Please continue to take whatever liberties you please with this, Firn. The chapters read better that way.
[X] The first step to mastering a skill is recognizing the existence of all its component pieces. The second step is understanding those, and the third is putting all of them together in different ways to make different effects. To go back to walking -- first you figure out that balancing and flexing your leg muscles are things you can do. Then you nail those down. Then after a while you don't even think about those things, you just run or walk.*(1)
-[X] Reading guides and books was a decent idea, but those are going to be aimed at people with a specific skill level: the "generic" one, the one that so many people have because they spent a decade and a half socializing instead of confined to bed rest with a chronic heart condition. They're written for the purpose of explaining to people who have figured out balance and muscles how to run and walk. "Everybody" already knows how to balance and flex, so nobody writes guides for those things, or even bothers mentioning them. Continuing the metaphor, her problems are at a lower level than "how to run", so reading a guide on "how to run" that assumes she knows how to balance and how to flex... It's completely useless. It won't teach her what she needs to know.*(2)
--[X] "How" you can teach her, then, is this: you can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right. There are specific things you know she doesn't understand and know you can teach her, and if there are other things she doesn't get that you're not aware of, then you'll figure that out as you go. The first thing you'd work on would be signaling, because you know for fact that that's a huge obstacle for her, but overall, there just isn't any reason this won't work. You just need... Samples.
---[X] Hologram up the scene in the abandoned section of mall, starting with Homura dropping in and ending with Sayaka fire extinguishing her. Include audio. Ask Homura what her goals were going into that conversation, then dissect the scene. Homura may well understand some of what you say; if she does, then make it clear you're laying everything out to see what she doesn't. Pay attention to what Homura does and doesn't understand -- that will direct what we focus on.
----[X] Guidepoints:
-----[X] Point out how Madoka flinches away + other indicators that she is afraid of Homura in this scene. When people adopt certain attitudes towards you, they tend to stop listening to what you actually say. Fear, disrespect, distrust, hatred, etc are all problematic and, worse, generally precipitate each other.
------[X] Explain factors contributing to Madoka being afraid in this scene. The location (dilapidated, somewhere she wouldn't usually go and isn't used to being), the use of violence (taboo, absent from normal life), positioning (Homura standing over Madoka -- height disparity is often intimidating and standing over someone especially signals nothing good), tone (hostile, demonstrate what you mean by that if asked).
-------[X] All of these factors send different kinds of signals, and of varying magnitude, but in this scene all of them suggest threat. What she chooses to say is almost irrelevant at that point, especially to Sayaka, in the same sense that if Mikuni showed up at Madoka's house with a gun, Homura would be unlikely to care about the words coming out of her mouth. Standing over Madoka was probably the worst mistake she made in this case, assuming the violence against Kyubey was unavoidable -- if she'd sat or even just kneeled when Madoka ended up on the ground, Sayaka wouldn't have assaulted her and MadoSaya would have been much more willing to hear her out.
-----[X] Her word choice was mediocre. People have to be convinced to do things if they don't immediately see a good reason for doing them, and they're frequently skeptical of things they don't see a justification for. On top of that, people tend to react negatively to being told to do things they don't see a reason to do. From Madoka's perspective, she's found an injured creature. Homura tells her to get away from it and seems threatening, but as far as Madoka can tell that will just result in the creature being hurt more -- worse, Homura is coming off as threatening, so Madoka will be disinclined to listen to anything she has to say. A better option would be to skip the "get away from that creature" bit, kneel, and accuse Kyubey of being dangerous in some fashion -- "a trickster", perhaps, or in some other fashion related to things which seem good but are actually Very Bad -- to give Madoka a reason to "get away" from Kyubey rather than just telling her to do it. *(3)
[X] Break.

1. As a metaphor, walking and running leaves something to be desired. Not because it's inaccurate, it is, but because of the feelings it might incite in Homura.
Like, and hear me out there, not being able to walk carries a lot of connotations in the society. It's associated with "being crippled", it elicits pity, it creates a wall between people unable to walk and the ones who can. It's pretty heavy stuff, and it's also wrong, but we ( as in we, humanity ) are just arriving, historically speaking, to the conclusion that being "physically superior" isn't the most important thing ever.
This just creates additional negative imagery for Homura to power through, so maybe replace it with something else? Like, yeah, swimming. Not everyone can swim. You can learn how to swim. You can also become unable to do so, not because of some injury, but because you got out of shape and your muscles atrophied. You got rusty. You have to work to get in shape and learn how to swim again.
2. Running again, but if you decide to stick to the idea, maybe simplify the wording some? Not much, but some, it comes off as pretty convoluted and intimidating, which is the last thing we 2ant here.
3. This is valid criticism, but it's also incredibly discouraging. Maybe, eh. Maybe focus on the things she can do better rather than on things she did wrong? It should be explained, yes, but not so... soulcrushingly?

Also, as a general comment, we actually don't know much about Homura's life before hospitalization. We have lots and lots of fanon and some supportive evidence, but we don't know, for example, whether Homura was unable to learn how to communicate because she was stuck in bed all that time, instead of, for example, a protracted bullying campaign in the previous school/orphanage completely destroying her confidence and chances to acquire social skills. ( God, I hope not, the multiverse already has one Skitter too many... Shit. A city-destroying monster, no social skills, a fight against a god, creepy blank expression... screw it I'm outta this universe )



[X] We aren't going for specific wording. Adjust as appropriate for the flow of the conversation.

[X] Answer Homura's question
-[X] A lot of the books she's likely read assume a level of skill she hadn't had the chance to develop.
--[X] Imagine if when reading about how to make pipe bombs they'd just gotten into the proportions for the chemicals without first explaining about keeping your workspace clear of open flames because "everyone knows that".
-[X] We don't know exactly what skills she's missed out on, so she's going to need to work with us to find those blind spots. We won't judge her for the things she's missing out on.
--[X] If any of what we're saying doesn't ring true, speak up. Our knowledge isn't perfect on this, and even if it was, it's good for Homura to learn to put into words what she's feeling and struggling with.
-[X] None of this is a limited time offer.
--[X] We're worried she won't followed up because she doesn't want to occupy our time, or can't come up with the questions to ask in the first place. We consider her a priority and want her to consider herself a priority.

-[X] Do a post-mortem on the fire extinguisher incident as our first exercise.
--[X] Use a Grief hologram with sound to replay the scene in detail, pause, rewind, replay, etc. as appropriate.
--[X] Cover how the scene looks from Madoka's prospective. Point out indicators Madoka was feeling threatened by Homura.*(1)
--[X] Point out the contributing factors to Madoka feeling threatened by Homura and how she could have mitigated that perception
---[X] Location: Isolated, dilapidated, dark, away from places she's used to being. Only so much she can do to mitigate this, but being aware can inform her that she needs to be even more nonthreatening than usual here.
---[X] Threatening body language from Homura: Looming over Madoka.
----[X] Getting down on her level, sitting, taking a knee, anything to make it easier for Madoka to run away if she wanted to makes her feel less like she needs to.
---[X] Giving orders sounds threatening. There's an implied "or else I'll hurt you too" when you say "get away from him" that we know Homura didn't mean but Madoka and Sayaka didn't know she didn't mean.
----[X] Explainations, even partial ones can help. Homura was worried for Madoka's safety, and making that the focus when she tries to get her away from Kyubey helps.
---[X] She was angry at Kyubey, and rightly so, but Madoka was interpreting that anger as Homura being dangerous.
----[X] Softening her tone helps there, remembering to address people as individuals, saving harsh words and tone for the object of her ire.
--[X] Discuss how the scene looked to Sayaka before she swung the fire extinguisher. Madoka acting threatened and an unknown girl standing over her. Think of how it would look to Homura if Homura had come in on a stranger looming over Madoka like that.
---[X] Backing up to give them space, holding up your hands, and making them both feel less like you're going to attack them.
*(2)

--[X] We can do the same exercise for other incidents. Offer examples and encourage her to come up with examples of her own.
---[X] Sayaka refusing the Grief Seed
---[X] Mami not listening to her warnings about Charlotte *(3)

[X] Break for voting before we decide to wrap up. We've got more to talk about.

1. "Threatened" is again, accurate, but a little too strong. Homura has a lot of hnagups about directly or indirectly harming Madoka. Intimidated, maybe? Alarmed?.. no, a bit too weak. Frightened, if you must.
2. I'm normally against it, but I think it's a pretty good place to stick in a repeated reassurance, that this problem can be overcome, that she can learn to do better.
3. No, absolutely fucking not. Mami is right here. I don't think a candid discussion about the circumstances of her death in the previous timeline is something both Homura and Mami are in a good headspace for. This is not a learning opportunity, this is a mine that will explode in their faces. I don't think this will be helpful, like, at all. Maybe we'll have to discuss it, later, as a part of a therapy session, not an opportunity to show how Homura fucked up and killed her friend ( what Homura believes ) or how Mami went to pieces, endangered innocents and got herself killed by a Witch ( what Mami can get out of this ).
 
Uh, I can't really give an opinion on the vote, but generally speaking, telling someone with negative self-worth that they fucked up, and how, can lead to 2 things:

1) The person takes it at face value, it's not surprised at all, and listen how he did (while doing the mental equivalent of self-flaying, and expecting to fuck up again even knowing how to do things right.)

2) Spiral. Like, not surprised at all, they start thinking, and then they spiral downwards faster than a Zero with a kamikaze pilot.

Negative feedback causes a loop.

Not a good idea, in general. I would know.

Agreed, I'm not 100% happy with the leading votes—they seem to alternate between hammering Homura with her deepest failures and speaking down to her in what I feel is a bit condescending, and I don't think that's a conductive way to approach this problem. I might be projecting that second point, mind—I'm so used to being condescended at that I sort of expect it now.

I admit I'm a little biased towards my own vote, but I feel we should focus on enlightening Homura with insights (such as the emotional vulnerability thing, or another aspect of human connection), using reassuring language.

This isn't bootcamp, we don't need to break Homura down before we build her up—she's already done that for us, and if we just it pile on, we might not get to the part where we build her back up.


(Also, why are the other votes so long? The last update said write-ins had a 150 word count limit. Have I misunderstood something? It's just that they're pretty hefty, and I'm finding it tricky to read through and understand them.)
 
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