Hold on, I just realized something. (That's not strictly PMAS related, but it's PMMM related, and I think the PMMM discussion thread's been dead for a while.)

It's Madoka that plants the idea in Junko's head for her to become company president, in Episode Two. Specifically, by asking her Mom what she would wish for, Junko responding that she would remove the current company president, then Madoka suggesting that she take the role.

It could be presumed that Madoka does something similar in other timelines to spark Junko's ambition. But what about timelines where Madoka doesn't exist? What happens to Nana Junko's career in bourgeois-dom then?
 
I don't think Homura's had that much practice at being Social, really. Think about it: with the start of the loops any social she would attempt are focussed on a very narrow group of people; namely only those that can save Madoka and stop Walpurgisnacht.

None of these would have been easy to befriend. Mami would have been unaproachable behind the sempai mask, with madoka her own hero worship gets in the way and Sayaka is a mix of overprotective of Madoka and jealous. All of that ignoring that Sayaka and Homura have fundamentally different attitudes towards heroism.

And even if she had tried to make a friend outside of that circle, what would they have had in common? Homura is a traumatized magical girl hell bent on saving Madoka. She doesn't have normal hobbies.
 
None of these would have been easy to befriend.
This is an excellent point. Magical Girls are not beginner level social challenges. Even without being manipulated toward a depression spiral by a superhumanly intelligent alien, each Magical Girl is someone who wante something down to her core hard enough to make reality itself back down and just give them what they wanted. And Homura focusing on Kyubey and her fellow Magical Girls with her attempts at learning social would be another example of her being dropped in the deep end before learning how to swim in the kiddy pool.
 
This is an excellent point. Magical Girls are not beginner level social challenges. Even without being manipulated toward a depression spiral by a superhumanly intelligent alien, each Magical Girl is someone who wante something down to her core hard enough to make reality itself back down and just give them what they wanted. And Homura focusing on Kyubey and her fellow Magical Girls with her attempts at learning social would be another example of her being dropped in the deep end before learning how to swim in the kiddy pool.
And dispite what stories or that one asshole teacher anyone knows at some point want to believe, that rarely works.
 
I know not of what you speak, and am unsure if I wish to.

Haha just kidding I'm the kind of person that would read the necronomicon for funsies please explain.
In a response to part of Raiseth's post:
I know you're being serious, but now all I can imagine is Homura with a deadpan expression in a kiddie pool with floaties on, slowly paddling with her feet, and I can't stop giggling like a school girl.
 
Hokay. Having reread the chapter three times and thrown out a draft and a half I have a clear vote that does a bunch of things we really want and -- critically -- directly addresses Homura's question.

Homura wants something tangible now -- and we're going to give it to her.

"We can teach you."

"Tell me how."

- How what we're offering is different from the sources she's tried before

- Actual example

- Get clear exposition of what Homura does and doesn't understand about her actions via that example

This vote seems like something that could be converted to a "knowledge base + general goals" format. I have another meeting today and some more work to do, so I won't be able to alter this a lot until tomorrow, but... I think I can see how to do that and I'll probably try.

At any rate, proving to Homura that we actually can teach her about this stuff should help immensely.

[X] Please continue to take whatever liberties you please with this, Firn. The chapters read better that way.
[X] The first step to mastering a skill is recognizing the existence of all its component pieces. The second step is understanding those, and the third is putting all of them together in different ways to make different effects. To go back to walking -- first you figure out that balancing and flexing your leg muscles are things you can do. Then you nail those down. Then after a while you don't even think about those things, you just run or walk.
-[X] Reading guides and books was a decent idea, but those are going to be aimed at people with a specific skill level: the "generic" one, the one that so many people have because they spent a decade and a half socializing instead of confined to bed rest with a chronic heart condition. They're written for the purpose of explaining to people who have figured out balance and muscles how to run and walk. "Everybody" already knows how to balance and flex, so nobody writes guides for those things, or even bothers mentioning them. Continuing the metaphor, her problems are at a lower level than "how to run", so reading a guide on "how to run" that assumes she knows how to balance and how to flex... It's completely useless. It won't teach her what she needs to know.
--[X] "How" you can teach her, then, is this: you can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right. There are specific things you know she doesn't understand and know you can teach her, and if there are other things she doesn't get that you're not aware of, then you'll figure that out as you go. The first thing you'd work on would be signaling, because you know for fact that that's a huge obstacle for her, but overall, there just isn't any reason this won't work. You just need... Samples.
---[X] Hologram up the scene in the abandoned section of mall, starting with Homura dropping in and ending with Sayaka fire extinguishing her. Include audio. Ask Homura what her goals were going into that conversation, then dissect the scene. Homura may well understand some of what you say; if she does, then make it clear you're laying everything out to see what she doesn't. Pay attention to what Homura does and doesn't understand -- that will direct what we focus on.
----[X] Guidepoints:
-----[X] Point out how Madoka flinches away + other indicators that she is afraid of Homura in this scene. When people adopt certain attitudes towards you, they tend to stop listening to what you actually say. Fear, disrespect, distrust, hatred, etc are all problematic and, worse, generally precipitate each other.
------[X] Explain factors contributing to Madoka being afraid in this scene. The location (dilapidated, somewhere she wouldn't usually go and isn't used to being), the use of violence (taboo, absent from normal life), positioning (Homura standing over Madoka -- height disparity is often intimidating and standing over someone especially signals nothing good), tone (hostile, demonstrate what you mean by that if asked).
-------[X] All of these factors send different kinds of signals, and of varying magnitude, but in this scene all of them suggest threat. What she chooses to say is almost irrelevant at that point, especially to Sayaka, in the same sense that if Mikuni showed up at Madoka's house with a gun, Homura would be unlikely to care about the words coming out of her mouth. Standing over Madoka was probably the worst mistake she made in this case, assuming the violence against Kyubey was unavoidable -- if she'd sat or even just kneeled when Madoka ended up on the ground, Sayaka wouldn't have assaulted her and MadoSaya would have been much more willing to hear her out.
-----[X] Her word choice was mediocre. People have to be convinced to do things if they don't immediately see a good reason for doing them, and they're frequently skeptical of things they don't see a justification for. On top of that, people tend to react negatively to being told to do things they don't see a reason to do. From Madoka's perspective, she's found an injured creature. Homura tells her to get away from it and seems threatening, but as far as Madoka can tell that will just result in the creature being hurt more -- worse, Homura is coming off as threatening, so Madoka will be disinclined to listen to anything she has to say. A better option would be to skip the "get away from that creature" bit, kneel, and accuse Kyubey of being dangerous in some fashion -- "a trickster", perhaps, or in some other fashion related to things which seem good but are actually Very Bad -- to give Madoka a reason to "get away" from Kyubey rather than just telling her to do it.
[X] Break.
 
Hokay. Having reread the chapter three times and thrown out a draft and a half I have a clear vote that does a bunch of things we really want and -- critically -- directly addresses Homura's question.

Homura wants something tangible now -- and we're going to give it to her.

"We can teach you."

"Tell me how."

- How what we're offering is different from the sources she's tried before

- Actual example

- Get clear exposition of what Homura does and doesn't understand about her actions via that example

This vote seems like something that could be converted to a "knowledge base + general goals" format. I have another meeting today and some more work to do, so I won't be able to alter this a lot until tomorrow, but... I think I can see how to do that and I'll probably try.

At any rate, proving to Homura that we actually can teach her about this stuff should help immensely.

[X] Please continue to take whatever liberties you please with this, Firn. The chapters read better that way.
[X] The first step to mastering a skill is recognizing the existence of all its component pieces. The second step is understanding those, and the third is putting all of them together in different ways to make different effects. To go back to walking -- first you figure out that balancing and flexing your leg muscles are things you can do. Then you nail those down. Then after a while you don't even think about those things, you just run or walk.
-[X] Reading guides and books was a decent idea, but those are going to be aimed at people with a specific skill level: the "generic" one, the one that so many people have because they spent a decade and a half socializing instead of confined to bed rest with a chronic heart condition. They're written for the purpose of explaining to people who have figured out balance and muscles how to run and walk. "Everybody" already knows how to balance and flex, so nobody writes guides for those things, or even bothers mentioning them. Continuing the metaphor, her problems are at a lower level than "how to run", so reading a guide on "how to run" that assumes she knows how to balance and how to flex... It's completely useless. It won't teach her what she needs to know.
--[X] "How" you can teach her, then, is this: you can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right. There are specific things you know she doesn't understand and know you can teach her, and if there are other things she doesn't get that you're not aware of, then you'll figure that out as you go. The first thing you'd work on would be signaling, because you know for fact that that's a huge obstacle for her, but overall, there just isn't any reason this won't work. You just need... Samples.
---[X] Hologram up the scene in the abandoned section of mall, starting with Homura dropping in and ending with Sayaka fire extinguishing her. Include audio. Ask Homura what her goals were going into that conversation, then dissect the scene. Homura may well understand some of what you say; if she does, then make it clear you're laying everything out to see what she doesn't. Pay attention to what Homura does and doesn't understand -- that will direct what we focus on.
----[X] Guidepoints:
-----[X] Point out how Madoka flinches away + other indicators that she is afraid of Homura in this scene. When people adopt certain attitudes towards you, they tend to stop listening to what you actually say. Fear, disrespect, distrust, hatred, etc are all problematic and, worse, generally precipitate each other.
------[X] Explain factors contributing to Madoka being afraid in this scene. The location (dilapidated, somewhere she wouldn't usually go and isn't used to being), the use of violence (taboo, absent from normal life), positioning (Homura standing over Madoka -- height disparity is often intimidating and standing over someone especially signals nothing good), tone (hostile, demonstrate what you mean by that if asked).
-------[X] All of these factors send different kinds of signals, and of varying magnitude, but in this scene all of them suggest threat. What she chooses to say is almost irrelevant at that point, especially to Sayaka, in the same sense that if Mikuni showed up at Madoka's house with a gun, Homura would be unlikely to care about the words coming out of her mouth. Standing over Madoka was probably the worst mistake she made in this case, assuming the violence against Kyubey was unavoidable -- if she'd sat or even just kneeled when Madoka ended up on the ground, Sayaka wouldn't have assaulted her and MadoSaya would have been much more willing to hear her out.
-----[X] Her word choice was mediocre. People have to be convinced to do things if they don't immediately see a good reason for doing them, and they're frequently skeptical of things they don't see a justification for. On top of that, people tend to react negatively to being told to do things they don't see a reason to do. From Madoka's perspective, she's found an injured creature. Homura tells her to get away from it and seems threatening, but as far as Madoka can tell that will just result in the creature being hurt more -- worse, Homura is coming off as threatening, so Madoka will be disinclined to listen to anything she has to say. A better option would be to skip the "get away from that creature" bit, kneel, and accuse Kyubey of being dangerous in some fashion -- "a trickster", perhaps, or in some other fashion related to things which seem good but are actually Very Bad -- to give Madoka a reason to "get away" from Kyubey rather than just telling her to do it.
[X] Break.
Okay that is a lot of words and I´m way drunk right now so
[X]Kaizuki
and I´ll do the thinking part later mk?
 
Looks good. Let me try to condense it a bit and try to connect to her experience. As always, let me know if you think I've lost important nuance.

[X] We aren't going for specific wording. Adjust as appropriate for the flow of the conversation.

[X] Answer Homura's question
-[X] A lot of the books she's likely read assume a level of skill she hadn't had the chance to develop.
--[X] Imagine if when reading about how to make pipe bombs they'd just gotten into the proportions for the chemicals without first explaining about keeping your workspace clear of open flames because "everyone knows that".
-[X] We don't know exactly what skills she's missed out on, so she's going to need to work with us to find those blind spots. We won't judge her for the things she's missing out on.
--[X] If any of what we're saying doesn't ring true, speak up. Our knowledge isn't perfect on this, and even if it was, it's good for Homura to learn to put into words what she's feeling and struggling with.
-[X] None of this is a limited time offer.
--[X] We're worried she won't followed up because she doesn't want to occupy our time, or can't come up with the questions to ask in the first place. We consider her a priority and want her to consider herself a priority.

-[X] Do a post-mortem on the fire extinguisher incident as our first exercise.
--[X] Use a Grief hologram with sound to replay the scene in detail, pause, rewind, replay, etc. as appropriate.
--[X] Cover how the scene looks from Madoka's prospective. Point out indicators Madoka was feeling threatened by Homura.
--[X] Point out the contributing factors to Madoka feeling threatened by Homura and how she could have mitigated that perception
---[X] Location: Isolated, dilapidated, dark, away from places she's used to being. Only so much she can do to mitigate this, but being aware can inform her that she needs to be even more nonthreatening than usual here.
---[X] Threatening body language from Homura: Looming over Madoka.
----[X] Getting down on her level, sitting, taking a knee, anything to make it easier for Madoka to run away if she wanted to makes her feel less like she needs to.
---[X] Giving orders sounds threatening. There's an implied "or else I'll hurt you too" when you say "get away from him" that we know Homura didn't mean but Madoka and Sayaka didn't know she didn't mean.
----[X] Explainations, even partial ones can help. Homura was worried for Madoka's safety, and making that the focus when she tries to get her away from Kyubey helps.
---[X] She was angry at Kyubey, and rightly so, but Madoka was interpreting that anger as Homura being dangerous.
----[X] Softening her tone helps there, remembering to address people as individuals, saving harsh words and tone for the object of her ire.
--[X] Discuss how the scene looked to Sayaka before she swung the fire extinguisher. Madoka acting threatened and an unknown girl standing over her. Think of how it would look to Homura if Homura had come in on a stranger looming over Madoka like that.
---[X] Backing up to give them space, holding up your hands, and making them both feel less like you're going to attack them.

--[X] We can do the same exercise for other incidents. Offer examples and encourage her to come up with examples of her own.
---[X] Sayaka refusing the Grief Seed
---[X] Mami not listening to her warnings about Charlotte

[X] Break for voting before we decide to wrap up. We've got more to talk about.
 
Last edited:
---[X] Mami not listening to her warnings about Charlotte
Mami's right there, she could also provide insight on that situation for Homura. Even if this iteration of Mami hasn't gone through that, she's still the same person.

also it opens up the possibility of mami makes bad jokes about losing her head for sabrina to groan at
 
Last edited:
Mami's right there, she could also provide insight on that situation for Homura. Even if this iteration of Mami hasn't gone through that, she's still the same person.

also it opens up the possibility of mami makes bad jokes about losing her head for sabrina to groan at
I was thinking the same thing.
Does Mami know about Homura's time travel? If she does, then this is an okay idea, but if not, then we're best keeping her away because Homura doesn't like people knowing about her ability to stop time, let alone her ability to time travel
 
Does Mami know about Homura's time travel? If she does, then this is an okay idea, but if not, then we're best keeping her away because Homura doesn't like people knowing about her ability to stop time, let alone her ability to time travel
Homura told Mami. That's why we're having this conversation with Mami and not Sayaka, who Homura hasn't told yet.
 
[Q] "So, Mami, in previous loops, Madoka would promise you that you wouldn't be alone anymore. That...kind of didn't work out. You kind of lost your head feeling all happy. Then you literally lost your head to a Witch."
 
Please check ourselves carefully on this point:

Walking / running analogy is good! "Concrete examples" work best with Emotions!Homura, right?
Trouble lies under the "re-visit X time with Madoka." Fire extinguisher incident is real, and what Kai says is true...


But, the times when she could not connect to Sayaka and Madoka are a way to open a chance for her negative self-talk to drown out our good intervention. We are focusing on a failure.

The improved way is to set up a new opportunity for success, replacing the perceived failure of the past bit-by-bit.
Use teaching skills. Use her strengths, not her weaknesses.
Homura can move herself forward, no matter what.
Don't ask her to reflect backwards, as we can help her just fine without that. If she revisits her past, we can do it that way - but try the effective and easy way first.


So we obligate ourselves to walk her through something in the next day or two, and post-mortem THAT.


Let's keep all her dimensions in mind, and not even talk about having her self-esteem slip.
These are complex, real people.
We are not glued to one way of doing things - use all the ideas from your own experience.

Kai wrote a good understanding of the encounter in question, superior and correct. Keep the understanding. Just do some other teaching task first. This isn't the right time to put her into re-evaluating her past.

Also, what are we doing to block Kyuubey's potentialbomb?

[X] Answer Homura's question
-[X] A lot of the books she's likely read assume a level of skill she hadn't had the chance to develop.
--[X] Imagine if when reading about how to make pipe bombs they'd just gotten into the proportions for the chemicals without first explaining about keeping your workspace clear of open flames because "everyone knows that".
[X] The first step to mastering a skill is recognizing the existence of all its component pieces. The second step is understanding those, and the third is putting all of them together in different ways to make different effects. To go back to walking -- first you figure out that balancing and flexing your leg muscles are things you can do. Then you nail those down. Then after a while you don't even think about those things, you just run or walk.
-[X] Reading guides and books was a decent idea, but those are going to be aimed at people with a specific skill level: the "generic" one, the one that so many people have because they spent a decade and a half socializing instead of confined to bed rest with a chronic heart condition. They're written for the purpose of explaining to people who have figured out balance and muscles how to run and walk. "Everybody" already knows how to balance and flex, so nobody writes guides for those things, or even bothers mentioning them. Continuing the metaphor, her problems are at a lower level than "how to run", so reading a guide on "how to run" that assumes she knows how to balance and how to flex... It's completely useless. It won't teach her what she needs to know.
-[X] We don't know exactly what skills she's missed out on, so she's going to need to work with us to find those blind spots. We won't judge her for the things she's missing out on.
--[X] If any of what we're saying doesn't ring true, speak up. Our knowledge isn't perfect on this, and even if it was, it's good for Homura to learn to put into words what she's feeling and struggling with.
-[X] None of this is a limited time offer.
--[X] We're worried she won't followed up because she doesn't want to occupy our time, or can't come up with the questions to ask in the first place. We consider her a priority and want her to consider herself a priority.
--[X] "How" you can teach her, then, is this: you can identify what she's doing wrong, point it out, teach her why it's wrong, and teach her or point her towards ways to learn all the options for doing it right. There are specific things you know she doesn't understand and know you can teach her, and if there are other things she doesn't get that you're not aware of, then you'll figure that out as you go. The first thing you'd work on would be signaling, because you know for fact that that's a huge obstacle for her, but overall, there just isn't any reason this won't work. You just need... Samples.






[X] Start with a "simulation" exercise, have Homura "show you how she would do X social task with a stranger." Mami plays the other person, we coach Homura. Repeat until progress in understanding. We can do this anywhere, not just on the tower - timestop has advantages? Select background for best effect.
-[X] Schedule an outreach with the unknown potential girls that we detected. Find one or more in public. We will have Homura as the lead, and Sabrina will back her up as we engage in useful, but 'lower stakes' social with new people. Homura has succeeded three times with new people already, we can just expand and extend the circumstances to be more useful to her.

[X] Rationally explain why "blame Kyuubey" is a good default to explain flaws she doesn't have an answer for yet.
-[X] Show the Incubator has bias, and that it affects her with the things it says.
 
Last edited:
[X] Kaizuki

I like using that encounter as an example, and especially the excellent analysis of Homura's body language in it.
 
Last edited:
Homura does have a considerable advantage in a form of HER THING which she can use without repercussions as much as she wants.

Even Mami can produce only so many teacups before people start thinking she's weird. For Homura there's no such drawbacks, she should play to her strengths.
 
Back
Top