- Location
- Illinois
Yes, it was very interesting.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
-
- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Yes, it was very interesting.
JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
[X] Grief seeds: equal division is good for the moment. There'll be a point when it will stop making sense, but until then. Just don't give Kyubey any of them, it's completely pointless when you're going to be next door in the near future.
[X] Retcon having someone videotape Sayaka showing off.
[X] Hand Yuki some funds for bribes/rewards for good behavior, and let her know of our suspicions about another motive for being here, possible issues with compulsion magic (suggest they attempt to check for or possibly ask about mental compulsions, use mind reading to bypass if consented to). If they aren't compelled, they also do probably need a few days to feel comfortable that they aren't just gonna have their boss bust out and blast anyone who blabbed.
[X] Say anything we need that is in the Abeyance to the battle group, then bounce.
[X] prepare for dinner. Possibly use grief to embellish available outfits if desired by you or Mami.
This is an awfully rough vote, so any suggestions (that don't keep us here beyond providing some brief ideas/funds to Yuki) would be welcome. Just say the word and I'll
Thought: You think any of them would be more willing to talk if we offered to erase their memory of blabbing, so none of the others could tell they had done so if they ever get back in communication? They could limit it to things the whole group would know.
[X] Retcon having someone videotape Sayaka showing off.
[X] Hand Yuki some funds for bribes/rewards for good behavior, and let her know of our suspicions about another motive for being here, possible issues with compulsion magic (suggest they attempt to check for or possibly ask about mental compulsions, use mind reading to bypass if consented to). If they aren't compelled, they also do probably need a few days to feel comfortable that they aren't just gonna have their boss bust out and blast anyone who blabbed.
[X] Say anything we need that is in the Abeyance to the battle group, then bounce.
[X] prepare for dinner. Possibly use grief to embellish available outfits if desired by you or Mami.
This is an awfully rough vote, so any suggestions (that don't keep us here beyond providing some brief ideas/funds to Yuki) would be welcome. Just say the word and I'll
Thought: You think any of them would be more willing to talk if we offered to erase their memory of blabbing, so none of the others could tell they had done so if they ever get back in communication? They could limit it to things the whole group would know.
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Most girls make their wish because they are either unhappy or unable to feel safe. A number of girls regret their wishes because they didn't think it through because QB targets them at their lowest point in life. Sabrina/The Thread certainly don't regret their wish but not everyone has X many users thinking up and deliberating over pros and cons of wishes which in Quest Time takes place over mere seconds.
That aside even assuming Sabrina could manage the funds to house and feed and get therapy for all these girls you're still taking their hopes and dreams made manifest and ripping them away. You're taking a core part of them and ripping it away. If antimagic does the job then there's no reason to strip their magic away besides some nebulous saftey of mind at the cost of trampling over their trauma.
Also on top of that being able to permanently "depower" meguca means QB goes from "Pssst hey you know there's this girl in Tokyo..." to "Abort experiment abort experiment" and start putting serious effort into taking us down.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Yes. literally each and every last one of them, when approached by Kyubey, told him that their very fondest wish was for the power to murder innocent people. Even the LARPers were in on this from the start. None of them got into this because they were little girls who dared to want things and then got mulched in a systemic psychological torture chamber.
It won't change the emotional reality of what we're doing if we say "sorry, you lost your meguca privileges on account of supremely bad behavior" before we unilaterally invert their souls. The magical world at large will not be understanding and unafraid of our trampling on contracts and performing soul surgery just because we maintain that we had a good reason to do it.
A hilariously marginal increase in everyone's safety compared to just putting them under antimagic and having a Clear Seed available for their use. At the not-at-all marginal cost of making invasive nonconsensual soul surgery on people standard procedure.
Again, you can't make a people emotionally okay with the idea of modifying offenders to take away their ability to offend without a cultural campaign that's frankly massively outside of the scope of this quest so far. Least of all when just containing offenders is only marginally less effective than rebuilding their souls.
This is exactly the attitude that makes the demands to depower them so disgusting.
If they're fully blown muggles, we don't need to be their keepers to begin with, and the thought of trying to keep them within our panopticon anyways should be as sickening as it is ridiculous. You're trying to sell me on the idea that they can go back to living normal lives, but you're not acting like you want to see that through. Your first thought is to straightforwardly give them generic ~living necessities~ and socially distanced schooling instead of working with them to give them the opportunity to return to the homes they might have had, the families and friends who might have loved them and could support them again, the lives they've been torn away from by circumstance and perverse incentives. You're blatantly postrationalizing your naked desire to exert maximum control instead of genuinely considering the full ramifications and implications of disempowering for our justice system.
"But if we let them out of our sight they might be able to contract again-!" yeah, because we're such idiots that we could work out the fucking nigh-hypothetical miracle of turning a meguca back into a muggle, and implement it, before we could replicate that handy-dandy perception filter that makes it impossible to see Kyubey and stick it on an ankle monitor.
JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
Hey @Subrosian_Smithy , what do you think of my vote? Anything you'd like to add/remove or edit? I'm super interesting in actually having a vote people want to vote for, and am interested in everyones input (unless that input is 'hunkerdown using bookguca to attain all Pirate Lore [TM] over several years).
I am going to make Pirate Lore [TM] a meme somehow, I just know it.
I am going to make Pirate Lore [TM] a meme somehow, I just know it.
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Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Give me a few minutes to osmote the salt out of my system.
StellarMonarch
Myrmidon
- Location
- Québec
you sure have a way with words, subrosian
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Personally, I don't find the idea of undoing contracts to be unacceptable in and of itself - there are a fairly significant number of magical girls who outright regret their wishes, and if we offer an out I don't doubt that there are plenty of magical girls who would happily ditch the system and go live normal lives, even after we mention the whole "unlimited magic" offer.
It just ultimately boils down to a question of consent, for me - forcibly altering someone's soul (or body, or mind) against their wishes is utterly unacceptable. It's wrong when Kyubey does it, and it'd be just as wrong if Sabrina did it.
It just ultimately boils down to a question of consent, for me - forcibly altering someone's soul (or body, or mind) against their wishes is utterly unacceptable. It's wrong when Kyubey does it, and it'd be just as wrong if Sabrina did it.
- Location
- Canada, probably
The discussion can't proceed if you're being dramatic like this. You're assuming that you're arguing with someone that sees de-magicking people as some kind of atrocity, as you evidently do. That's not a warranted assumption.
Isn't it widely considered a bad thing that the Cube removes souls from bodies? Why is it bad to put it back in?
Oh hey, while I was writing this, Redshirt Army answered the question. Cool, that's helpful.
It's not that I assumed they wished for bad things, it's that... tbh, I'm entirely indifferent to their wishes? like, they either didn't lead them onto a good path or had nothing to do with the bad things they've done, and the only thing I care about is the bad things they've done, and stopping more bad things from happening.
I said "the hopes and dreams... that they used to murder" not "the hopes and dreams to murder", because it doesn't matter what their wish is anymore, they used the power from the wish to go around the world being the worst type of meguca, even compared to territory-aggressive meguca. like even if they used their wish to save people, they've probably killed more.
I assumed that the depowering would be not horribly invasive or nonconsentual, otherwise that'd defeat the point of doing it over perma antimagi. like, getting a soul gem does not actually change who they are as a person. like yeah that's their soul, but also the effects of having one on the body and mind are literally unnoticeable until they're actually told about it, so I assumed that the reverse would be the same and do all of jack and shit to who they are. and it might just be me, but the whole reason I said that there's not much difference between permanent antimagi and depowering is because I legitimately can't see a difference. like, as far as I can tell, being an mg changes who you are (not what you can do, note) about as much as changing clothes does.
and the reason to provide necessities wasn't because of panopitcon but rather because they, as recently retired full-time-meguca, would have no way to get them. the idea was a support network to get them on their feet, not because of control. my first thought was living necessites because they need to, y'know, actually stay alive, preferably comfortably, before doing other things.
to be honest, I didn't even think about them contracting again because... why would they want to?
and I didn't think about keeping them from their family or w/e either, and I went for online schooling because sending them back to public school but being years older than everyone else in their grade would feel bad, and online has the option of self-paced.
the whole point of the depowering thought was so they could live normal less-dangerous lives again, not to like, be a comically evil villain and take away all their free will. "But if we let them out of our sight they might be able to contract again-!" the whole point is to be able to let them out of our sight, without a constant antimagic shackle reminder of their past and power they can't use.
like, most of the stuff in that post is just assuming the worst about things I didn't even think of.
messy and will probably edit more in, just wanted to get those thoughts out.
I said "the hopes and dreams... that they used to murder" not "the hopes and dreams to murder", because it doesn't matter what their wish is anymore, they used the power from the wish to go around the world being the worst type of meguca, even compared to territory-aggressive meguca. like even if they used their wish to save people, they've probably killed more.
I assumed that the depowering would be not horribly invasive or nonconsentual, otherwise that'd defeat the point of doing it over perma antimagi. like, getting a soul gem does not actually change who they are as a person. like yeah that's their soul, but also the effects of having one on the body and mind are literally unnoticeable until they're actually told about it, so I assumed that the reverse would be the same and do all of jack and shit to who they are. and it might just be me, but the whole reason I said that there's not much difference between permanent antimagi and depowering is because I legitimately can't see a difference. like, as far as I can tell, being an mg changes who you are (not what you can do, note) about as much as changing clothes does.
and the reason to provide necessities wasn't because of panopitcon but rather because they, as recently retired full-time-meguca, would have no way to get them. the idea was a support network to get them on their feet, not because of control. my first thought was living necessites because they need to, y'know, actually stay alive, preferably comfortably, before doing other things.
to be honest, I didn't even think about them contracting again because... why would they want to?
and I didn't think about keeping them from their family or w/e either, and I went for online schooling because sending them back to public school but being years older than everyone else in their grade would feel bad, and online has the option of self-paced.
the whole point of the depowering thought was so they could live normal less-dangerous lives again, not to like, be a comically evil villain and take away all their free will. "But if we let them out of our sight they might be able to contract again-!" the whole point is to be able to let them out of our sight, without a constant antimagic shackle reminder of their past and power they can't use.
like, most of the stuff in that post is just assuming the worst about things I didn't even think of.
messy and will probably edit more in, just wanted to get those thoughts out.
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JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
Yeah...i'm sure we haven't even cracked the tip of the iceberg in terms of low impact restrictions to prevent them from icing a mofo. But that is a conversation for another time.
Now @Redshirt Army , what would you like added/removed/edited in my vote? Anyone else interested? Even if just to obliterate me for an obvious and dire mistake?
Another inane thought: How hard do you think it would be to find a place with italian wines, and convince homura to let us go in while timestopped to grab some for decoration in the house, replacing them with money in significant excess of their value (since stealing is bad). We would mainly use them for decoration until, I dunno, Mami's sweet 16 (ain't like the law can catch our ass). Even if she isn't interested, we could see if we could use witch magic to just flat out buy some with cash using the jedi mind trick to prevent ID checks (I can't really see much problem with doing mind stuff for inane things like that).
Or we could just ask a guca who is drinking age to buy some for us. Probably the easier option. Empty wine bottles are also a thought, if we thought they would look nice.
Now @Redshirt Army , what would you like added/removed/edited in my vote? Anyone else interested? Even if just to obliterate me for an obvious and dire mistake?
Another inane thought: How hard do you think it would be to find a place with italian wines, and convince homura to let us go in while timestopped to grab some for decoration in the house, replacing them with money in significant excess of their value (since stealing is bad). We would mainly use them for decoration until, I dunno, Mami's sweet 16 (ain't like the law can catch our ass). Even if she isn't interested, we could see if we could use witch magic to just flat out buy some with cash using the jedi mind trick to prevent ID checks (I can't really see much problem with doing mind stuff for inane things like that).
Or we could just ask a guca who is drinking age to buy some for us. Probably the easier option. Empty wine bottles are also a thought, if we thought they would look nice.
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No she said that she trusts us to tell her when she's ready. She doesn't know the secret and so can't judge it.
We do need to start planning for it, else is going to get dropped in her in the worst possible way at the worst possible time. It can probably wait till tomorrow, because this day is a looong day. There is still the dinner to come and more... So today is probably too much.
Subrosian_Smithy
endless
- Location
- Washington
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
Sure it can.
If I thought @enop agreed with me, I obviously wouldn't feel the need to object to their perspective.
You and @enop can refuse to accept my framing of the issue, if you feel - as you obviously do - that it's a dramatic and hysterical one, but "someone on the internet might disagree with me and refuse to accept my position!" is not actually going to stop me from opening my mouth and giving my perspective.
Please at least complain about something else if you (probably rightly) feel that I'm being inflammatory.
Depowering for the purposes of retributive or rehabilitative justice leaves little to no room for consent. Therefore, it falls rather overtly on the bad-touch side of the fence as far as tampering with people's bodies, minds, or souls goes in my book.
I don't accept Kyubey apologism on the grounds that some people might possibly be able to give informed and uncoerced consent to participate his system. I'm not any more likely to accept the prospect of depowering meguca in the context of our justice system, because that's not an environment that's conducive to informed and uncoerced consent.
JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
Does anyone think it is possible to use Witchy grief to make a joint and smoke it? Would Sabrina get high? Would have to try while alone or with Homura's supervision before we drop the 420 bomb on Mami and reveal that weed is actually cool and good (in moderation).
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I thought it was widely accepted that grief heroin is the drug of choice amongst meguca?
Angrygenius
Professional Insomniac
- Location
- Florida
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Any depowering as a punishment is nonconsensual by default.
As for an argument, I have to say no on this one. Depowering would be a short term solution, and it would probably be a good thing if it was a thing we could do via request, but using it for punishment is a nono.
Lets assume we depower the girls and we let them leave, so they have to live normal lives, and kyuubey doesn't immediately flip his shit.
What I ask are two questions: What are they going to do now, and how will this look tothe world at large?
These girls have been doing what they've been doing for so long, they probably aren't used to doing much anything like civilian life. They also now start with nothing: no home, no food, no identity, and a language barrier. This can be mitigated by us, of course, but the fact is they will have no idea what to do.
For my second question, I think the overall reaction will be very negative, and not just from those afraid of us remuggling people. There probably exist a substantial portion of mecuga who would view depowering as a mercy and an unbelievable kindness at this point, something that they would give anything for. Imagine your one of these girls, then you hear that someone has successfully depowered a mecuga, however they depowered the mecuga equivalents of fucking blackbeard. How would you feel? I'd be pretty damn angry myself. I imagine that lots of these girls would give us a very unfavorable view. I also imagine that some might also be desperate enough to start trying to pull heinous shit in the hopes that we'll come try to stop them and depower them. In other words, depowering as a punishment might be incentive to try and cause more mayhem.
JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
Well yes, that is the old joke, but Magic weed would be a fun way to spice up Mami's sweet 16 ( or just normal grief being used to form decorations if she isn't that confident about it during such a social event). The cool part would be that, since the effect only lasts as long as we want, we could sober up basically instantly if we decided to end the effect, since it wouldn't even have to work with real chemistry, and just mimic the effect of weed.
Could use a chill pill for poor Sabrina. After dinner and we are safely at home of course. Don't wanna be couchlocked until we are ready for bed.
The demon on my shoulder is telling me to put it into a vote if no one else makes any just before the next update. Even if people are uncomfortable with more significant stuff like that, we should see if we can use like Witch tylenol to gain the effects of pain relief without resultant slowed reactions. That and Diphenhydramine could give us some knowledge of the more esoteric aspects of our powers, without anything crazy that could hurt someone mentally or emotionally, like a mind reading device might.
Could use a chill pill for poor Sabrina. After dinner and we are safely at home of course. Don't wanna be couchlocked until we are ready for bed.
The demon on my shoulder is telling me to put it into a vote if no one else makes any just before the next update. Even if people are uncomfortable with more significant stuff like that, we should see if we can use like Witch tylenol to gain the effects of pain relief without resultant slowed reactions. That and Diphenhydramine could give us some knowledge of the more esoteric aspects of our powers, without anything crazy that could hurt someone mentally or emotionally, like a mind reading device might.
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it wouldn't be punishment, is the point, bc we don't do punishment, we do rehabilitation that's the whole point of the getting therapists part.
it'd be an optional option that they have free will to make the choice for. and if it was short term then that'd also totally defeat the point of it. (short-term refering to contracting again? why would they want to contract again for??? is there something I'm missing)
I didn't think about kuyb or the overall reaction at all, so those are good points,not that depowering will ever happen anyways by the sounds of it.
it'd be an optional option that they have free will to make the choice for. and if it was short term then that'd also totally defeat the point of it. (short-term refering to contracting again? why would they want to contract again for??? is there something I'm missing)
that's the point of r e h a b i l i t a t i o n
the first three are a non-problem, the last- they don't have to stay here, and if we do assume we depower them the whole point of doing that is being able to let them go back wherever and not having to monitor them.
I didn't think about kuyb or the overall reaction at all, so those are good points,
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Angrygenius
Professional Insomniac
- Location
- Florida
- Pronouns
- Him/He
Right, sorry i thought for some reason that it was being suggested as a punishment for some reason, I failed a spotcheck.
Also, by "de-power", we mean convert back into a normal girl.
As to how... answer's on a postcard, I guess. It won't happen anyways because Firn doesn't want to write about that ( and honestly that sounds beyond our scope anyways. We deal with grief, not souls.)
JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
@k4lepo there isn't really a thing to do yet. If there is, it would be something to do for girls whose wishes somehow managed to hamper their ability to live a healthy/happy life, if even then (since wish rejection might do just as well to pull them out of it).
@Angrygenius Uh. To be honest, we can probably do that with them as meguca. Once we can get some money coming in, we could use that to pay Meguca to keep a watch on them (more as minders who report if they slip their least without asking them/roommates rather than jailers), perhaps on some private lands so we can just let them have somewhere to actually putter around (with gems anchored to like a big iron rock enchanted with antimagic. 100m doesn't allow for wandering about, but should be enough room to put a walking track around the perimeter to let them stretch their legs, and give full reign of a big bungalow of a house with garden (could put the rocks on rails to allow them to move to a exercise/sparring area).
@Angrygenius Uh. To be honest, we can probably do that with them as meguca. Once we can get some money coming in, we could use that to pay Meguca to keep a watch on them (more as minders who report if they slip their least without asking them/roommates rather than jailers), perhaps on some private lands so we can just let them have somewhere to actually putter around (with gems anchored to like a big iron rock enchanted with antimagic. 100m doesn't allow for wandering about, but should be enough room to put a walking track around the perimeter to let them stretch their legs, and give full reign of a big bungalow of a house with garden (could put the rocks on rails to allow them to move to a exercise/sparring area).
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- Location
- Canada, probably
Ah, I guess I misunderstood what you were trying to accomplish. I thought you were making an argument, not just stating opinions in a dramatic way.
Spectral Waltz
Scatterbrained Writer
- Location
- Walking the Endless Corridors
Sure, but I don't accept your serial murderer apologism either. You are talking about people who have either mostly or entirely willingly spent literal years wandering around enslaving and killing people.
Monsters don't have the right to luxuries like the powers that helped them be that way. Whatever we might have to do to remove their powers is justified by their past actions.
They lost the rights to their powers the minute they decided to use them for evil.
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JIMI94
Birdman with a cauldron on it's head
- Location
- The Garden of Earthly Delights
Eh... I just am not into retributive justice, @Spectral Waltz. This may seem selfish, but I feel no pleasure from punishing people, especially when it isn't absolutely necessary.
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