So to sum up my mental see-sawing on this:
  1. This is likely to be a deeply personal moment between the two of them, and a third party hanging around inside its pomerium seems... gauche.
  2. But, Mami is clearly deriving emotional support from our presence despite that.
  3. But, Kaizuki paints a compelling picture of the potential upsides of encouraging Mami to take this solo despite that.
In the end, I have to remind myself that... Mami said she'd be OK with us standing to the side, so long as we're there for her. With that assent, I think I'm comfortable voting something like...

[x] Sigh audibly at Kyouko's nonsense.
[x] Genial Precis
 
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I disagree with certain forms of expressing Sabrina's displeasure over Kyouko's opening gambit, and the theatrical sigh (we're voting on it after all) is one of them. It seems too ambiguous in directions that might make Kyouko more defensive rather than have a useful effect. For my part, the message I might wish to send Kyouko is "I'm not gonna tell you how to live your life, but maybe you think carefully about what you're doing just now?" Where the first part is important because it's Kyouko being addressed. Maybe I should stick to my guns on the Eyebrow Raise of Skepticism...
 
Hm. I guess the message I was hoping to send was, OK, she's being deliberately provocative; let's emote our doubt at that behavior, but just as a passing emote rather than actively butting into the conversation that's about to take place.

I don't read her as being likely to get defensive at a theatrical sigh, but if you think it's a risk, I'd be fine switching to

[X] Give Kyouko the eyebrow raise of skepticism
[X] Genial Precis
 
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Well, I should confess that the other part of my feelings about Kyouko right now is that I want to hug her and tell her to knock it off. Has Sabrina ever hugged Kyouko?

The tyranny of the majority is that Sabrina can't hug Kyouko, make a sarcastic remark, hug Mami, raise an eyebrow, stand off to one side, hold Mami's hand, sigh, remain silent, manage the encounter and let Mami handle it.
 
Well, I should confess that the other part of my feelings about Kyouko right now is that I want to hug her and tell her to knock it off. Has Sabrina ever hugged Kyouko?

The tyranny of the majority is that Sabrina can't hug Kyouko, make a sarcastic remark, hug Mami, raise an eyebrow, stand off to one side, hold Mami's hand, sigh, remain silent, manage the encounter and let Mami handle it.
Have you considered Grief clones? :V
 
When I reread PMAS before joining in, what I perceived as Mami's increasing upward spiral was something I specifically found endearing about roughly the latter third of it.

That is exactly why I pushed for it :D

I came in pretty much around the metabomb and just... I had no prior exposure to PMMM at all, but Mami was just such a compelling character and I just -- I just could see it, that if we pushed here and there, said this and that, then... Then it didn't have to be that Mami's traumas were wholly unsolvable within quest scope.

It didn't -- things didn't need to stay like they were. There were better ways than Sabrina resigning herself to Mami being depressed for the rest of the quest.

And, um, well, I'm glad you're as happy about what's transpired as I am :)

However, I remain concerned that we might have failed to adequately warn Mami about Kyouko's bluster. As far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) this might be something Kyouko has seriously intensified since they last knew each other well. That seems like important context. Thus:

So -- let me open with, *yeah*, I think it's like a 35-40% chance we will see something problematic along those lines, and *yeah*, I think Kyouko's bluster has gotten worse since she and Mami last met. However, I don't know what specific intensity and tack you're thinking of as far as "Ways Kyouko could aggressively or defensively ("Tsunderily") try to fuck this up." I have little ability to guarantee that my reading of "bluster" is the same one you intend, here.

That said, I've been thinking about this in general since before I wrote my current vote, which is why I've tried to embed a stopping block against generally similar issues in the peptalk:

If you don't know what to say, if you're scared, if you're hurt: tell her so.

That is me going, "How do we catch the possibility that Kyouko will end up verbally attacking her, in whatever way, for whatever reason?" And deciding that the best response to that is probably Mami demonstrating (verbally, ideally) that it's hurting her, which we can be fairly certain Kyouko doesn't want and will back away from. (If things go that route and Kyouko doesn't back away from that... Either Mami falls back on last chapter's advice, that she needs to tell Kyouko she still cares about her, or otherwise we end up having to intervene. I don't think Mami is up for having Kyouko go after her verbally and I don't think it's something we're going to allow.)

There is also the guidance we gave Mami last post, which is *really* good guidance and something to keep in mind.

For those reasons, I'm not *majorly* concerned by what I'm viewing as likely to come out of Kyouko's mouth, but if you can give me a more exact example, I do way better with those ><


There's two arguments on this one. One is, I think we're supposed to be keeping the peace, at least according to our agreement with Kyouko, so maybe were supposed to stay transformed for that?

The other is, detransformed is way more casual and definitely preferable. I think I -am- going to add this to my vote, because ngl I uh... I kind of forgot to include it lmao.

since they last knew each other well.

I've kept a copy of The Different Story, chapter one next to my desktop for like the last year exactly so that I can reference the canon material on that -- though, not entirely intentionally, I saw it in a bookstore one day and just grabbed it. You should be able to find it in an E-format on the web somewhere if you want.

Well, I should confess that the other part of my feelings about Kyouko right now is that I want to hug her and tell her to knock it off. Has Sabrina ever hugged Kyouko?

The tyranny of the majority is that Sabrina can't hug Kyouko, make a sarcastic remark, hug Mami, raise an eyebrow, stand off to one side, hold Mami's hand, sigh, remain silent, manage the encounter and let Mami handle it.

*Hugs*


[x] Squeeze Mami's hand.
-[x] Via telepathy, to Mami:
--[x] "**Reach out** with both hands and don't look back. If you don't know what to say, if you're scared, if you're hurt: tell her so. I'll catch you if you fall, I'll be here when you come back."
-[x] Move to the side.
--[x] Detransform.
--[x] Let Mami handle it.
 
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[x] Sincerly thank Kyoko for coming.
-[x] Kaizuki

Seriously, I feel her showing up in the first place is a major victory, particularly when, as she said herself, she has no idea how to just accept help. Bashing her in basicly any way at this point I find a really bad idea.
 
[x] Stay right where you are.
[x] Let Mami handle it.

Having someone act as a supportive presence doesn't undermine your achievements. It just doesn't.

This was always going to be difficult and painful, Kyoko wouldn't have it any other way, but our role here doesn't have to be. Sabrina isn't a crutch to be leaned on for day-to-day life but set aside for rehabilitation. She's Mami's girlfriend. Her job is to love Mami.

We shouldn't respond to Kyoko, that would undermine Mami's actions, but we can just be there, reminding Mami that not everyone leaves her and she deserves to be loved, or just providing a hand to hold.
 
Having someone act as a supportive presence doesn't undermine your achievements. It just doesn't.
I agree with this also. And wherever Sabrina stands, she's present, and a certain minimum amount of supportive presence. Not to mention all of our (fairly predictable) contingencies, which undermine the notion that this is any kind of "throwing Mami into the deep end". I would argue that everything we're proposing is mostly one form or other of theater for Mami's (and Kyouko's) benefit, and most of it is along practically very similar lines.

I don't regard the difference between handholding and a hot-blooded encouragement as very large, or where we stand, for that matter. Kyouko's and Mami's reactions are much larger unknowns compared to any remaining differences between popular plans.

I might still flip flop, but...
 
What contingencies do we have for her just not wanting to let go of our hand? A death grip isn't something you can extract from subtly without the other participant's cooperation.
:rofl: None in particular! That would be less than graceful... And it would be inconvenient if such an attempt were misunderstood. I may change my vote later. To be clear, I meant that everyone is clearly planning to intervene if Mami can't handle it, while hoping/confidently expecting to various degrees that Mami will handle it.
 
What contingencies do we have for her just not wanting to let go of our hand? A death grip isn't something you can extract from subtly without the other participant's cooperation.

Easy, cut off your hand.

That of course will send the correct message to Mami about how much we value her...

To be serious,
[X] Torgamous
-[Q] Yes, you are holding Mami's hand in front of Kyouko, let her eat her heart out.

Then again.
 
Having someone act as a supportive presence doesn't undermine your achievements. It just doesn't.

This was always going to be difficult and painful, Kyoko wouldn't have it any other way,
but our role here doesn't have to be. Sabrina isn't a crutch to be leaned on for day-to-day life but set aside for rehabilitation. She's Mami's girlfriend. Her job is to love Mami.

We shouldn't respond to Kyoko, that would undermine Mami's actions, but we can just be there, reminding Mami that not everyone leaves her and she deserves to be loved, or just providing a hand to hold.

Fact is, I spent about a solid day trying to decide which way to go on this vote because of exactly this argument. I did eventually come down where I did, but -- it wasn't easy.

I'm going to stick to what I've put down, because while I completely agree with the statement that "Having someone as a supportive presence doesn't undermine your achievements", the conclusion I eventually came to was that actually, in Mami's exact case, it's not really plausible to deny that her accomplishing something like this with any lesser degree of direct support from Sabrina *is* an achievement.

I then had to think, how do I reconcile those points of view? How do I reconcile -- forgive me the sphagetti, you're just putting this to paper too perfectly, Torg --

This was always going to be difficult and painful, Kyoko wouldn't have it any other way, but our role here doesn't have to be. Sabrina isn't a crutch to be leaned on for day-to-day life but set aside for rehabilitation. She's Mami's girlfriend. Her job is to love Mami.

*That*, with everything else?

There is a scene in a fanfic that made a lasting impression on me, which came to mind. This is not the same scenario, not even remotely, and I don't want anyone to think I'm trying to imply that it is -- but the point I took from that scene is, love isn't just about support. Love is about wanting the best for another person instead of just yourself. Usually that means supporting them, because typically, pushing someone in a direction they're not eager to go in? Is kind of shit. But sometimes, love means *more than that.*

We are in a position where Mami is dependent on Sabrina, and to a meaningful but much lesser degree vice versa. That is not actually a good thing, no matter how much Mami might vocalize that she's okay with it if one were to ask her. This is where I found my conclusion: to push Mami to go and come back so that she can grow in doing so, while staying a clear port of safety that she can return to when she needs -- is that not love? Tell me that's not love. And tell me that being here to catch her if she falls isn't that. Tell me there's no gain in this for her, to succeed in this with any less of Sabrina's presence than is necessary.

All of this said, if we could stand, like... Off to the side but a little *less* off to the side... Maybe?

Now, before I go, a couple other details:

"Kyouko," Mami whispers, one hand reaching for her, and the other clutching yours.

--[x] "**Reach out** with both hands"

Yes, I am 100% responding to that symbolism. It's almost mandatory.

Second,

What contingencies do we have for her just not wanting to let go of our hand? A death grip isn't something you can extract from subtly without the other participant's cooperation.

The contingency for that is that I have nothing in my vote directly saying "let go of her hand" and I physically cannot imagine Firn Brinapiloting us into removing ourselves if Mami super doesn't want to let go. It would be so far OOC it's not even funny.
 
I would assume it is kind of given, but I do want to voice (type) my support of the idea of stepping back, but by not too far.
And to raise the idea: hug Mami with grief, if she looks to need the support?
 
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