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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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And here is where things are picking up. I agree with the general sentiment that we need to give Sayaka concrete stuff; plans, leads, and such.

On another note:
Cae Lumis said:
Returns from the depths of hell, after being busy with countless real-life stuff.

Magia Record isn't the only source for this information, but yes, PMMM confirms the Law of Cycles and Madoka are separate from each other. To cite my sources, have a gander at information from The Rebellion InuCurry Artbook:

Fake town's children love Madoka, but not the Law of Cycles. The Devil is alright. Only Manuke loves everyone. Children like watching dramas on the box in the teahouse. Their favorite one is "The pumpkin that was left all alone because of the goddess". They don't like the one with the mermaid.

The Clara Dolls make a direct point to differentiate between both Madoka and the Law of Cycles, treating the two as different individuals.

As for Nagisa and Magia Record, you remembered it correctly @King Washington. Nagisa outright points out that the Law of Cycles wishes runs counter to what she feels was the reason why she was sent to Kamihama: The Law of Cycles would prefer to simply break the timeline and have it be the same as all the others from the PMMM verse (Which would result in MagiReco's Madoka being erased from existence like all others, along with the deaths of Ui, Touka, Nemu and more). Instead, Nagisa believes (correctly) that she was sent to scope out the timeline and find an alternate solution and preserve the MagiReco timeline.

A summary can be found on the wiki: https://wiki.puella-magi.net/Magia_Record_Story_Kamihama_Cheese_Panic!

Reading between the lines of what Nagisa remembers about being within the Law of Cycles: It's less like Heaven/ Valhalla (take your pick) and more like FFVII's Lifestream or Code Geass's World of C... where you merge together with everyone else who once was alive -losing individuality and or conscious awareness- until Madoka summons you for some task and sends you back. This also implies that the main reason Sayaka and Nagisa remembered all of their past timelines was because of holding onto a part of the LoC for Madoka. This also lines up with why -despite hosting the souls of countless past Magical Girls within her- Madoka as a Goddess is described as so lonely... she can't even interact with her own charges except at the moment she comes to collect them.

Edit: fixed the wiki link & added an alternate comparison.
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As @King Washington, mildly disturbing. If there is an entity or force that interprets and grants wishes (because I don't see Madoka herself wanting things this way), then it interpreted Madoka's in- not the worst possible way, but still one that hurts Madoka in the long term. Really, shifts Homucifer from "maybe tragically misguided" to "right for the wrong reasons".
 
Shadowhisker said:
As @King Washington, mildly disturbing. If there is an entity or force that interprets and grants wishes (because I don't see Madoka herself wanting things this way), then it interpreted Madoka's in- not the worst possible way, but still one that hurts Madoka in the long term. Really, shifts Homucifer from "maybe tragically misguided" to "right for the wrong reasons".
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It isn't how PMMM wishing works generally though which is weird.

Maybe Madoka's wish multiverse retroactive complete restructuring wish was so huge it was running up against even Madoka's 100 loops of potential and the wish granting entity had to make choices to keep it under budget?
 
Shadowhisker said:
And here is where things are picking up. I agree with the general sentiment that we need to give Sayaka concrete stuff; plans, leads, and such.

On another note:


As @King Washington, mildly disturbing. If there is an entity or force that interprets and grants wishes (because I don't see Madoka herself wanting things this way), then it interpreted Madoka's in- not the worst possible way, but still one that hurts Madoka in the long term. Really, shifts Homucifer from "maybe tragically misguided" to "right for the wrong reasons".
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It's also worth noting that the Nagisa that remarks about not knowing the identity of the Law of Cycles is uh... In the world, and doesn't hold Madoka's memories like in Rebellion. It's possible there's a bit of censoring, like the old-fashioned trope of "The revived don't get to remember the afterlife" at work here, because then what if Angel!Nagisa said "yo Madoka, you're God"?
 
Redshirt Army said:
[ ] We're working on both prevention and a cure.

[ ] For prevention, we're doing whatever we can to make sure that magical girls - all magical girls, everywhere - don't have to fight for resources or starve.
--[ ] Clear Seeds are a stopgap solution - they're much better than the status quo, but you still want to replace them with something better once you can.

[ ] For cure, we're working to try to reverse the witching process and rescue the fallen magical girls, with help from Niko Kanna and the Fukushima Group.
-[ ] She's never tried it yet, but you *know* Niko is able to connect the consciousness in a grief seed to a human body.
--[ ] It doesn't work on ordinary Grief Seeds though- the grief they've experienced drives them insane.
---[ ] Clear Seeds don't have that grief though, and although they don't accept normal magic, they *do* accept magic filled with *hope* - eagerly, even.
----[ ] Witches... their entire barrier is filled with grief. You don't want to rush into things and hurt the girls you're trying to help, so you're trying to see if anything in the behaviour of Clear Seeds changes when they're filled with enough hope to counteract the despair they felt when they became a witch, before trying to reconnect them to a body.

[ ] Sayaka wished to be helpful, and her power lets her scan peoples souls and create erzatz soul gems. You don't think that's a coincidence.
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I like the core thrust of it, but have some contentions. Mostly, I think you're focusing a bit too much on one path in the latter section, and it has some shaky ground.

[ ] We're working on both prevention and a cure Right now the big question will be finding out what's possible and what the limits are.

[ ] For prevention, we're doing whatever we can to make sure that magical girls - all magical girls, everywhere - don't have to fight for resources or starve.
--[ ] Clear Seeds are a stopgap solution - they're much better than the status quo, but you still want to replace them with something better once you can.

[ ] For cure, we're working to try to reverse the witching process and rescue the fallen magical girls, or as close as possible.
-[ ] We're planning to work with Niko Kanna and the Fukushima Group on this, and if we're lucky Nadia may send more people our way.
-[ ] Soul gems and witches both have a common core. Your hope is that if you take those cores away from the grief and wrap them in magic it can become a magical girl again, or something enough like one to interact with the world as a person again.
-[ ] There may be more than one avenue for this but for now...
--[ ] Introduce Sayaka to Aurora and explain how you've been working with clear seeds, what you've done so far, how she seems to have become more active and how she notices certain things, even if you're not sure what. Once you can, and while you have someone to spot for you, you want to figure out how to talk for real so you can work out the whole of what you need to do. Giving her a body will be the simplest way to do this.
// Yes treating Aurora like a person is deliberate, especially given how much we've found openness, honesty, and treating people like people tends to help in general.
---[ ] Yes treating Aurora like a person and your filling sessions like conversations is deliberate, especially given how much you've found openness, honesty, and treating people like people tends to help in general when it comes to magical girls.
--[ ] Sayaka should think about what powers could help here.
--[ ] You have other bases for comparison, both from the real world and your knowledge, and they shouldn't be slow to ask.
---[ ] The specifics are unclear and unreliable but you *know* the Saints would have been able to make an amnesiac copy of a fallen magical girl, albeit with some indication they couldn't bring back the original, separating the core of a witch without killing it at some point in the process. You also *know* it would have ended in a giant mess due in large part to poor experimental procedure, though the entire incident seems to have been averted before you even got there.
// Keep in mind that our knowledge on Kazumi Magica is unreliable, if not as much as we originally assumed. We shouldn't focus on specifics here, only broad truths.
// This also explains some powers could be of use and tie into the whole "be careful" thing.


[ ] Sayaka wished to be helpful, and her power lets her scan peoples souls and create erzatz soul gems. You don't think that's a coincidence,
-[ ] You've wondered before if her gems are akin to inverted familiars --- your reasons why are an esoteric talk for after or another time --- and it may be worth keeping an eye on if those gems grow over time or if they can be made and then fed to clear seeds.
-[ ] Sayaka may also want to check how her power copying works on witches, grief- and clear-seeds. Though she should do so with great care and a spotter.

[ ] Kyuubey will almost certainly be a problem here. There's a fair amount of reason to believe he interferes at least by encouraging girls to run with bad ideas, and you also suspect the possibility of him volunteering information to groups like Iowa as another weapon against those who attempt this kind of thing.

[ ] Potential points to hit along the way, as appropriate:
-[ ] The soul's core has its own name.
-[ ] Share our witchbomb contacts; she should also know who else knows about the witchbomb beyond just those working with us.
-[ ] You've been meaning to check if dewitching will result in power copying. You seen a few hints, including that your clear seed experiments might have spread your power to them, for better or for worse, but haven't been able to verify.
-[ ] Impress on Sayaka the importance of taking care and having a spotter while working with this stuff, or failing that to at least keep a clear seed next to her soul gem while working with grief. Shake hands with danger, Sayaka.
 
[X] The Phoenixian

[Q] Give Sayaka some water.

-[Q] Mention that Sayaka and Kyouko remind us of Rei and Asuka from Evangelion, respectively.

--[Q] Wait for Sayaka to drink some water

---[Q] Mention that we always shipped Rei and Asuka.

----[Q] Grief umbrella to block the spit take.
 
Right, I am entirely not-coherent right now, but I have a thought to share with the thread.

When discussing the Buddhist aspects of the conflict between Homucifer and Madokami? The names Homara and Buddoka.

*goes back to sitting here brain-fried due to anti-sleep*
 
Random crack theory here:

What if Madoka's wish from the previous timeline didn't create a new person. But instead brought a future older version of Nagisa to the current timeline. One who had her soul rammed back into her body. This being the reason why Sabrina's magical potential is so weird. It would also explain her meta-knowledge because future Madoka could've told Nagisa/Sabrina her life story. The current timeline's Nagisa liking Sabrina as a sister would also make more sense despite Sabrina being a "stranger"(they also have the same hair color. Concident? I think not). Mami being liked by Sabrina could also be because she reminds Sabrina of cheese and her time as Bebe(Nagisa has experience for pretending to be something else). The name Sabrina might have come from Sabrina Wholesale Foods which has been known for their good food. Food which include Cheese. If Sabrina is secretly Nagisa without her memories then she would also be Bebe making her an actual witch girl.

TL;DR: Sabrina is actually a future version of Nagisa from an alternative timeline.

I've connected the dots.
 
ghostlySmile said:
Random crack theory here:

What if Madoka's wish from the previous timeline didn't create a new person. But instead brought a future older version of Nagisa to the current timeline. One who had her soul rammed back into her body. This being the reason why Sabrina's magical potential is so weird. It would also explain her meta-knowledge because future Madoka could've told Nagisa/Sabrina her life story. The current timeline's Nagisa liking Sabrina as a sister would also make more sense despite Sabrina being a "stranger"(they also have the same hair color. Concident? I think not). Mami being liked by Sabrina could also be because she reminds Sabrina of cheese and her time as Bebe(Nagisa has experience for pretending to be something else). The name Sabrina might have come from Sabrina Wholesale Foods which has been known for their good food. Food which include Cheese. If Sabrina is secretly Nagisa without her memories then she would also be Bebe making her an actual witch girl.

TL;DR: Sabrina is actually a future version of Nagisa from an alternative timeline.

I've connected the dots.
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So does that mean PMAS has secretly been a Nagisa x Mami fic this entire time :o

At least we aren't having to deal with the wrath of this guy
 
Wait, there's one potential hole in the Sabrina-is-Nagisa theory.

How much does Sabrina like cheese?

That's the question that could make or break this particular idea.
 
Eh, at least this update solves one pending question.

Sayaka is probably not an angel, since she hasn't reacted to the Witchbomb with "lol, I know".

Unless she's merged with some version of Sayaka who has ungodly acting skills, that is.
 
ghostlySmile said:
Random crack theory here:

What if Madoka's wish from the previous timeline didn't create a new person. But instead brought a future older version of Nagisa to the current timeline. One who had her soul rammed back into her body. This being the reason why Sabrina's magical potential is so weird. It would also explain her meta-knowledge because future Madoka could've told Nagisa/Sabrina her life story. The current timeline's Nagisa liking Sabrina as a sister would also make more sense despite Sabrina being a "stranger"(they also have the same hair color. Concident? I think not). Mami being liked by Sabrina could also be because she reminds Sabrina of cheese and her time as Bebe(Nagisa has experience for pretending to be something else). The name Sabrina might have come from Sabrina Wholesale Foods which has been known for their good food. Food which include Cheese. If Sabrina is secretly Nagisa without her memories then she would also be Bebe making her an actual witch girl.

TL;DR: Sabrina is actually a future version of Nagisa from an alternative timeline.

I've connected the dots.
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Um. Sabrina is a caucasian.
 
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