Appearance issues can be Serious Business for teenagers. It's entirely possible, that she might gather almost as much grief from negative emotion, should we force her to give it up, than from effect upkeep. So it would not only be just petty to try to dictate it further, with Clear Seed available, but potentially useless anyway.

I agree with this - whatever it is, we were so sure before that it was unimportant and that she should drop it or not spend magic on it. And she's spent this entire time keeping that up even with things explained to her, and seems to think it's worthwhile, so...

I think we have to trust that no matter why, she sees that cost benefit as good. Second guessing that would be proving her right about us being arrogant, and it was probably one of the core things to set her off before - not just that we told her to stop but that we assumed there could be no good reason at all?

(It might not be a great reason, of course. Probably she is being inefficient or there's some more permanent thing to do. But putting her with an experienced illusion meguca means she'll figure that out without our help, right?)
 
(It might not be a great reason, of course. Probably she is being inefficient or there's some more permanent thing to do. But putting her with an experienced illusion meguca means she'll figure that out without our help, right?)

I doubt it, she didn't even know what she was doing would eventually kill her at first, and she seems kinda opposed to the very notion of there even possibly being a better way than what she's already discovered.
 
I doubt it, she didn't even know what she was doing would eventually kill her at first, and she seems kinda opposed to the very notion of there even possibly being a better way than what she's already discovered.

I'm pretty sure she's opposed to any way that involves anyone - including herself, most likely - seeing her with the illusion down. Unless I'm misremembering, but I thought she was keeping it up even alone, unlike the Animators, so that speaks to it being as much for her own benefit.

It doesn't mean that she wouldn't jump at a way to change her body that costs less or that's permenant, it means that she doesn't want to drop the image. There's some valid reasons that would explain it.
 
I'm pretty sure she's opposed to any way that involves anyone - including herself, most likely - seeing her with the illusion down. Unless I'm misremembering, but I thought she was keeping it up even alone, unlike the Animators, so that speaks to it being as much for her own benefit.

It doesn't mean that she wouldn't jump at a way to change her body that costs less or that's permenant, it means that she doesn't want to drop the image. There's some valid reasons that would explain it.

If it comes from us, she'll refuse it no matter how badly she wants it because she's petty.

And I'm telling you now, I'm prepared to bet that she won't actually bother to try and discover any better way.
 
Isn't Madoka's too?

Do not attempt to clock the girl who might have sold her soul to keep that from happening.
I am in no way saying that we should try to clock her or try to give unsolicited advice or proding or anything like that

Just. As a trans person, viewinf her obvious body image problems through that lens makes a lot of sense from what I know about it

If she is trans. Its not our place to pry, most we can do, most we should do. Is try to mend bridges. And if she ever comes out to us, try to give advice but remember to stay in our own lane

And if she isnt trans. Which is also a possibility. Then there is nothing at all wrong with doing the same thing and trying to mend bridges
 
Whether she's trans or cis, I think that it's important to recognize that the way Ono's using her magic isn't bad on its own. She got a wish and used it on something that's obviously important to her, and I think Sabrina and the thread underestimated how important it was to her during our first few meetings.

The most important thing to have for meguca, as long as Sabrina is around, is a support network. Trying to help people carefully limit magic use is not our point in being here. Our point in being here is to help people facilitate communication!


[] You're still not happy with this outcome - she's still burning Grief. Subsisting off the Clear Seed you gave the Animators, presumably.

That's why I don't like this option, although I understand that the vote is going somewhere else anyways.
 
My working theory for why Ono is burning magic constantly. Is that she's trans. And its just to make her feel better about herself
So are like 90% of Japanese names when you don't have the kanji (examples anime fans may be familiar with include Makoto, Homura, Hinata, and Kaoru).

I mean it's especially notable here; but granted I don't think Firn would know the etymology that deeply.
 
Whether she's trans or cis, I think that it's important to recognize that the way Ono's using her magic isn't bad on its own. She got a wish and used it on something that's obviously important to her, and I think Sabrina and the thread underestimated how important it was to her during our first few meetings.

The most important thing to have for meguca, as long as Sabrina is around, is a support network. Trying to help people carefully limit magic use is not our point in being here. Our point in being here is to help people facilitate communication!




That's why I don't like this option, although I understand that the vote is going somewhere else anyways.
Telling someone to not use magic just for appearances kind of rings hollow coming Sabrina "Personal Orchestra" Vee of all people. She could have no good reason at all for all it matters, so long as she has a functionally infinite magic battery it's not gonna kill her.
 
:thonk:

If... we dress up as an Eldar Wraithlord on Halloween, will Sayaka recognize the reference? And if she does, will she facepalm?
 
So not boys at all, then. Strange to imagine that Kyuubey would make that elementary of a mistake, considering the Incubators would have very effective brain-scans to work off of.
I don't want this discussion to go too far off topic, but if "boy" is generally taken to refer to people of the male gender, is there a less clunky way to refer to people of the male sex? Or is the whole point that sex is irrelevant and it doesn't need it's own words?
 
Oh, and the last thing. I wonder if Ono was meant to be our Social challenge at all

I mean, Mami is a well-mannered, well-cultured lady who enjoys drinking tea with a cute hat ( and boy doesn't it make her sound like she's in the same sect with Oriko )

Sooooo
Maybe we should've introduced Ono to Mami?
I dunno
 
[X] Take a moment to really think about Ono's comments. About your own presented image, contrasted with what you know about her background and wish.
[X] Ask her in earnest honesty how you came across as arrogant -- you're not too proud to admit to mistakes, and blundering our way into causing a new magical girl refusing to listen to life-saving information is certainly a mistake. If you're going to do better in the future, then you need to know what you did wrong in the past.
[X] Listen to her feedback. Don't treat it like an argument or a debate to be won, she's a magical girl who nearly died because you didn't know how to handle her.
[X] Thank her for the feedback, and give her a sincere apology.
-[X] Because if your ego is so inflated that this is too much, Ono is absolutely right about you being arrogant. You've discarded your dignity for lame jokes to cheer up an arsonist you call friend, and you've swallowed your pride to reach out to a delinquent who dishes out worse than Ono did regularly.
[X] Onwards to meeting the Animators!
- [X] Vote in abeyance
Thank you, I am glad there's a vote from somebody that isn't for doubling down on what is clearly a blatant sore spot for Ono. The only issue I have is with it is this part:
[X] Ask her in earnest honesty how you came across as arrogant -- you're not too proud to admit to mistakes, and blundering our way into causing a new magical girl refusing to listen to life-saving information is certainly a mistake. If you're going to do better in the future, then you need to know what you did wrong in the past.
As you pointed out in your own analysis, Ono has real chip on her shoulder. And with all those self-worth and self-image issues, the fact that she is thanking us for anything at all is actually quite eyebrow-raising. Her wish was likely made for the sake of her own pride (and her constant magic use almost certainly so) which makes the fact that she is actually swallowing her pride to thank us almost a near-miracle of the Oriko's-soul-twisting-itself kind.

The way I'm seeing it is this: if she is not exaggerating and really, honestly believes us purposefully arrogant (and not just telling herself that for her own benefit as some form of cognitive dissonance mitigation) then that means she's doubly swallowing her pride to not merely to give thanks to anyone, but to do it for someone she truly dislikes. And in this case, drawing attention back to the fact we still seem arrogant in her eyes is tantamount to forcing a lemon down immediately after the pride. I personally also think it can possibly, in a sense, make us come off as yet again so arrogant we can't even consider the fact that we're being arrogant.

On the other hand, if she doesn't fully believe Sabrina to be so and is mostly just saying so to save face or to convince herself of it so that she doesn't have to consider that she could - god forbid - possibly have made an error in judgment on her part, it would just poke at her self-esteem issues and make her all the more frustrated at everything.

Sometimes there are minefield situations when doing nothing is the best option, because stepping in any direction can potentially trigger a landmine and even just jumping straight up could set one off that you don't realize you're already sitting on. This is almost one of those times. Just an apology, even a half-hearted one - since Ono wouldn't be expecting anything genuine if she believed us hugely arrogant and especially if she didn't really believe what she was saying - without bringing up anything else about the subject is probably the best way to respect that she has likely had to undergo some constipating mental gymnastics to spit out what she just said to us, I think.

Personally, I highly suspect that something recently happened between Ono and the Animators that we don't know about, something which elevated her respect for us and the Animators enough to be thanking us and to refer to the Animators as helpful people (even if she's obviously sore about their rough training). If I were ballsier, I'd vote for asking her what happened directly, but I consider it safer to try and pry it out of the other Animators.

The only alternative I can think of is that this is very clumsy attempt at trying to butter up Sabrina for some favor or other - and if it was, we'll know about it soon enough.
 
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Though on if people think asking how to be less arrogant comes off as patronizing or arrogant itself.

1) Apologize, own the mistake and don't add caveats about how you wanted to help.
2) Just tell her your glad she is doing well, and getting along with her new ...acquaintances.
3) Express something about how we hope to be friends/acquaintances with her. Being a magical girl is tough, more so when your alone.

*will maybe do vote when back from work*
 
So, someone made the comparison of the pettiness of SVer's dealing with Ono to "complaining about Kyoko getting bitchy if we threw out leftovers in front of her".

I don't see that.

Even when Kyoko was antagonizing the hell out of Sayaka in the anime and just generally being kind of a shitheel from the audience's perspective, in her own way she was trying to help, even if that was by breaking Sayaka out of her idealism and corrupting her. Again. Utterly fucked-up psychology, but less than evil intentions.

I don't get any sense of that from Ono. Her gratitude for our part in saving her life, if indeed there is any, is (to paraphrase another poster here) the kind of thank-you you give someone because your parents or teacher is making you.

I don't advocate actively antagonizing Ono, partly on the principle that Sabrina is better than that and partly because there's no sensible reason to do so.

But neither do I particularly like Ono or sympathize with her attitude, nor am I interested in dealing with her long-term.

Does she deserve to die or Witch out? From what I know, of course not. But does she deserve an apology for a rescue she didn't like? No, not really.

If Ono has any new/ongoing concerns beyond "doesn't like Sabrina", then sure, go ahead and give those the attention they're due.

But she doesn't need to like Sabrina, for Sabrina to help her.

And I don't think pandering to Ono's ego is going to really help her all that much in the first place.
 
I don't get any sense of that from Ono. Her gratitude for our part in saving her life, if indeed there is any, is (to paraphrase another poster here) the kind of thank-you you give someone because your parents or teacher is making you.
This is the thing, though - your parents and teacher get to make you grate out apologies or thank yous, because if you don't they start spanking you or detaining you (or tell your parents and then they dish out the punishment). It's wrung out of you by force. You wouldn't do it otherwise.

So... who or what exactly made Ono wring out this tsundere-like sort-of-thanks? I can only wonder at the thing that prompted this to happen. I was so sure that she would just clam up and take a hike somewhere else when invited to meet.
 
Maybe she is apologizing because she realized Sabrina had a point, though clumsily made, and so honestly meant it for the best, and not apologizing in that case would leave Sabrina under the delusion she is the better person and Ono won't stand for that.
 
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