Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

[Firnagzen]

Morally iffy it might be, but I'd still be down for kidnapping them, copying their powers and reading their minds, wiping their memories and then dumping them back before they knew they were gone.

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Yeah, no. Not an acceptable line of action.

And I'll address the rest briefly while I'm on it.

And yet nobody wants to phish for any information on Kyubey, our biggest, fattest screw with the most oddly-shaped head due to his lack of emotions.

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Quite possibly because...

This is what Kyubey does. He is very, very good at it.

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... and that any attempt you make to act on Kyuubey inevitably means that it, in turn, gets to manipulate you.

The issue is that this isn't the "victory" you actually want, you actually want Homura alive and preferably sane and friendly again. And capturing Homura alive would take a very well-planned combat vote.

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I mean. Getting to that point is definitely a catastrophic series of failures.

I'm addressing this in general because this feels like a particularly virulent strain of thought. PMAS isn't that kind of quest. If you're disappointed in that, then this isn't the quest for you. Are there finer details to fights? Yeah, absolutely. Heck, I enjoy writing fights sometimes. They're a chance for me to stretch my writing chops a bit. But the point is that combat, no matter how finely you split hairs over it or how broadly you define it, isn't the fundamental conflict, and no amount of equivocation is going to get you around that. Even in your contrived example, facing Homura, the solution still isn't going to be more biggatons or fighting.

I've repeated that point over and over again, and I really don't know how else I can explain. Combat isn't the fundamental conflict, and that is a core theme of PMAS.

And like. You can come up with all the examples and instances you like, but I'm not going to go into every fight Sabrina's gotten into and every fight she might get into to explain it, because nobody has the time for that, and I have little interest in showing my entire damn hand as far as the rest of PMAS goes. My point remains that combat isn't the fundamental conflict of PMAS.

 

[Kaizuki]

Thank you, I would like draw attention to this very last sentence in particular. Kyubey.

See, the thing that galls me is that no matter how much it's repeated that the quest is about people, nobody ever seems to treat Kyubey as a person.

Kyubey is pretty much the biggest person in the entire quest, both literally in terms of sheer physical mass if you took all of his bodies and piled them all up as well as figuratively representing the biggest problem to deal with and yet nobody seems to be interested in extracting information on his agenda or circumstances. No one wants to know how he found out about Homura or why he didn't contract Nagisa. Nobody even knows for certain what he's after right now and just assume it's still energy as per explanation in canon.

No, people are not (purely) tools or assets, the people are the problem in this quest that need to be solved, they are the "actual conflicts" mentioned. Their conflicting agendas, motivations and circumstances. With the combat being just another tool used to resolve them, albeit a blunt hammer and not always suitable for everything. Hugs and motivational speeches are another tool, like a screwdriver, but end up just as blunt as a hammer if applied in the wrong fashion.

Throwing words at people without knowing their circumstances is just beating them over the head with the butt of the screwdriver, or like using a flathead to turn a Phillips-shaped hole. Now maybe sometimes you CAN beat a screw into the hole with the butt, or force the edge of the flathead into a Phillips with enough repeated application, but that's hugely inefficient and is liable to end up ruining the head of the screw.

The REAL key to dealing with it is in information warfare. Knowing which type of screwdriver to apply, which way to turn it. People unravel much more easily if you know their agenda and circumstances. This is what Kyubey does. He is very, very good at it.

And yet nobody wants to phish for any information on Kyubey, our biggest, fattest screw with the most oddly-shaped head due to his lack of emotions. Nobody wants to ask about people who could potentially teleport into Mitakihara. Nobody wants to ask about Madoka's backstory or even what Homura or Sayaka knows about Madoka's backstory.

Nobody even has to balls to ask Homura if she actually likes cats or figure out whether she would lie about it just to please Madoka and really hates them due to being the cause of Madoka contracting.

That's kind of sad.

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You've now been so kind as to tell everyone in the quest they've got no balls, so here's something I'd like you to hear:

You're *right*. NOBODY HERE wants to do these things you're advocating for. Nobody is interested in you backtalking **FIRNAGZEN, THE QM** to talk about how people are totally only *partly* assets and tools after the things he said that I'm not even going to summarize because Jesus Christ they stand on their own.

And as for your hypotheticals of us "fighting Homura" -- no, that doesn't even need me to say anything about it! It's a bad joke just on its own.

 

[Godwinson]

The blatantly obvious meta-narrative reason why Sabrina has a ridiculous amount of power is so that way the distractions of combat and resources are solved problems in the quest, leaving only the actual problems of PMMM to face as the plot of PMAS.

 

[Johnnyboy306]

And as I said before, I support kidnapping Iowa because their potential clairvoyant could be OUR potential clairvoyant and that's too good a chance to pass up. Morally iffy it might be, but I'd still be down for kidnapping them, copying their powers and reading their minds, wiping their memories and then dumping them back before they knew they were gone.

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I don't know what's worse, the fact that you're advocating this at all, or the fact that this might make it into the update and make Sabrina freak out.

 

[PistachioCookies]

I mean. Getting to that point is definitely a catastrophic series of failures.

I'm addressing this in general because this feels like a particularly virulent strain of thought. PMAS isn't that kind of quest. If you're disappointed in that, then this isn't the quest for you. Are there finer details to fights? Yeah, absolutely. Heck, I enjoy writing fights sometimes. They're a chance for me to stretch my writing chops a bit. But the point is that combat, no matter how finely you split hairs over it or how broadly you define it, isn't the fundamental conflict, and no amount of equivocation is going to get you around that. Even in your contrived example, facing Homura, the solution still isn't going to be more biggatons or fighting.

I've repeated that point over and over again, and I really don't know how else I can explain. Combat isn't the fundamental conflict, and that is a core theme of PMAS.

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I... never said anything to dispute this?

As you said, getting to the point where you're in a serious fight with someone like Homura is where you're at damage control. I never advocated that it should get to a fight or to expect that it often will, in fact I did say the optimal outcome was "alive, sane and friendly". The point was just that if it does, unless you then flat out declare by fiat "nobody is going to die" (which is obviously ridiculous) then it naturally becomes a case of... the poorer the plan, the more damage is getting through in the end and a good plan can at least mitigate it some and keep more people alive (and I fully agreed "more biggatons" wasn't going to be the solution, as that would likely cause more damage).

Otherwise you're basically saying there will always be a guaranteed talking-based solution in any given combat scenario, that can always pulled off with the available information at hand. Given that gathering said information is largely left up to us, I'm struggling to see how this can be the case given we can't be guaranteed to always ask the right people the right questions.

... and that any attempt you make to act on Kyuubey inevitably means that it, in turn, gets to manipulate you.

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Should we be taking this statement in the same sense as the warning you gave on generating antimatter?

I don't know what's worse, the fact that you're advocating this at all, or the fact that this might make it into the update and make Sabrina freak out.

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"I'd be down with" doesn't mean I'm going to be the one putting that vote up to begin with.

I'm perfectly happy to admit that I don't have the balls to actually make that particular vote. I'd just go along with it if it were made, is all.

 

[Spectral Waltz]

@PistachioCookies just... Just stop. Okay? Put the shovel down.

 

[TJSomething]

Aren't we basically Superman? One of the important things about Superman is if the problem can be punched in the face, he can solve it. Therefore, the key to a good Superman story is that the core conflict cannot be resolved by punching a problem in the face. I suspect that we could use RKVs to literally destroy the Earth. This can definitely kill anyone who is a reasonable threat to us, except Kyubey.

Actually, that's kind of the thing. From a utilitarian perspective, killing the Incubators is reprehensible, since they will probably stop the heat death of the universe if they are allowed to. But the utilitarianism of the Incubators is a flawed. A continuous theme of Urobuchi's is that the greedy maximization of happiness causes one to lose sight of what happiness is. True happiness is not fungible, but a deeply personal experience. Thematically, right now, we need to be able to make people happy with a personal touch, so as to be better than the Incubators. In the long run, we need to accomplish what Madoka did canonically, bring comfort to all magical girls, through the life-affirming hard work of diplomacy instead of by destructive (and ultimately unstable, looking at Rebellion) self-sacrifice.

I was going to keep going about how we need to unite magical girls so as to give us enough negotiating power to change Incubator policy from their problematic definitions of utilitarianism to maximizing Enlightenment-style dignity, when I realized that what we want is the power to collectively negotiate better working conditions. We're gonna unionize magical girls.

Backing off from the bigger question of theme because I'm a slow writer who has been ninja'd 5 times since I started writing this, Firn stated that our magic is absolute against anything mundane. We can pour arbitrarily large amounts of energy into anything and tank nuclear weapons to the face. I would be completely unsurprised if WPN has similar defensive capabilities.

 

[Madou Sutegobana]

using a flathead to turn a Phillips-shaped hole.

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I feel the need to point out that you don't need to force a flathead screwdriver into a philips hole. Philips screws are backwards compatible by design. One bar of the cross is longer than the other and even usually extends through the sides of the head.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

And as I said before, I support kidnapping Iowa because their potential clairvoyant could be OUR potential clairvoyant and that's too good a chance to pass up. Morally iffy it might be, but I'd still be down for kidnapping them, copying their powers and reading their minds, wiping their memories and then dumping them back before they knew they were gone.

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While I agree with some of what you said, this kind of slammed the mental brakes on my train of thought. Why the heck would this be a good idea in any sense? Like...it wouldn't solve the problem of the Iowa group, even though we'd be going out of our way to defeat them in the first place...? And it'd involve doing some really shady shit for the sake of...what? Clairvoyance that may or may not even exist? That we probably wouldn't need by that point anyway? Why would we even want to read their minds at all, considering all of the horrible things they've done? What purpose would it even serve? How would we read their minds?

Also, it's very much a reckless attitude to have, thinking of people largely as assets and problems to solve, when you're still working on a scale in which you're dealing with individuals. It makes said people very nervous and wary of you (understandably so), making your job a lot harder. Showing individuals that you care about them as people and not just in terms of what they can do for you/your goals and what problems they have that you need to deal with will engender loyalty and affiliation with you, which is very good for an organization of any kind to have.

 

[defenestrator]

And as I said before, I support kidnapping Iowa because their potential clairvoyant could be OUR potential clairvoyant and that's too good a chance to pass up

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Oriko: Am I a joke to you?

Also, making elaborate (and morally reprehensible) plans on assumed information ain't the height of rationality

 

[Muramasa]

...uh

Is the thread on fire again?

 

[TJSomething]

I feel the need to point out that you don't need to force a flathead screwdriver into a philips hole. Philips screws are backwards compatible by design. One bar of the cross is longer than the other and even usually extends through the sides of the head.

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The better analogy here would be using a Phillips driver on a Pozidriv screw, which is a great way to strip a screw. Also adds an interesting analogy about two problems that look the same on casual inspection, since the two screw heads look similar, but actually require different tools to solve.

Which reminds me of a point that I forgot in my last post. We want to make a lasting organization that is larger than us to advance our goals of a global sisterhood standing together and helping each other out. Right now, we are setting an example for our successors. If we build our power through force of arms, we aren't going to end up with the Federation; we're going to end up with the Imperium of Man.

...uh

Is the thread on fire again?

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"We should pre-emptively kidnap magical girls" sounds like a pretty damn hot take. And I don't usually feel like posting multiple times a day unless it is, so probably.

 

[Rickshaw]

...uh

Is the thread on fire again?

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It happens. And the more people go out of their way to criticize it, the higher the likelihood of it appearing in the update. Yay, incoming brain damage (the bad kind)

 

[Guilop]

In a blatant attempt to get away from this discussion, I'm gonna add my vote to the pile.

[x] Godwinson

 

[PistachioCookies]

While I agree with some of what you said, this kind of slammed the mental brakes on my train of thought. Why the heck would this be a good idea in any sense? Like...it wouldn't solve the problem of the Iowa group, even though we'd be going out of our way to defeat them in the first place...? And it'd involve doing some really shady shit for the sake of...what? Clairvoyance that may or may not even exist? That we probably wouldn't need by that point anyway? Why would we even want to read their minds at all, considering all of the horrible things they've done? What purpose would it even serve? How would we read their minds?

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As I said early on in the post, the key to unlocking the problem of people is knowing their motivations and circumstances. Acquiring personal information on them.

Reading their minds tells us all of that immediately. Yes, it is a very brute-force, intrusive, highly vulgar and not at all nice way of gaining that personal information, but it does get the job done.

Befriending is the usual way to get that kind of information, but in the case of Iowa, well they haven't been painted as very friendly and some people are impossible to befriend - case in point, Hamasaki Akiko.

To this day we still don't know what her circumstances were and have no solution to dealing with her besides leaving it up to Rin.

To clarify, I don't pretend it doesn't come without significant drawbacks such as the ones you've stated, just that it is (well, was before the veto) -a- potential solution. And I would've been interested enough in reading about how it would go if we had tried it.

 

[defenestrator]

As I said early on in the post, the key to unlocking the problem of people is knowing their motivations and circumstances. Acquiring personal information on them.

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And wouldn't the method of 'unlocking the problem' (mind reading, as you propose) not create a dozen more problems in turn?

 

[SaltyWaffles]

As I said early on in the post, the key to unlocking the problem of people is knowing their motivations and circumstances. Acquiring personal information on them.

Reading their minds tells us all of that immediately. Yes, it is a very brute-force, intrusive, highly vulgar and not at all nice way of gaining that personal information, but it does get the job done.

Befriending is the usual way to get that kind of information, but in the case of Iowa, well they haven't been painted as very friendly and some people are impossible to befriend - case in point, Hamasaki Akiko.

To this day we still don't know what her circumstances were and have no solution to dealing with her besides leaving it up to Rin.

To clarify, I don't pretend it doesn't come without significant drawbacks such as the ones you've stated, just that it is (well, was before the veto) -a- potential solution. And I would've been interested enough in reading about how it would go if we had tried it.

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I'm...pretty sure we're just going to end up taking the Rionna solution to the issue of the Iowa group. Or at least the Anri solution.

 

[PistachioCookies]

And wouldn't the method of 'unlocking the problem' (mind reading, as you propose) not create a dozen more problems in turn?

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The way I'm imagine it, Homura probably wouldn't have argued much. Sayaka or Umika, if we brought them to do the mind-reading, could well have become upset especially if the memories are as brutal as they're held to be, but that's the only real hurdle I'd imagine there would have been. If Sabrina borrowed the X-File gem and could do the reading herself (or used Grief to make some mind-reading substitute) there wouldn't even be that. Sayaka could just stand back and copy the powers while the Sabrina and Homura plucked the Soul Gems out of Iowa members and brought them into timestop one at a time for mindreading.

Even the Iowa group wouldn't know at the end, because we'd wipe their minds and leave them where we found them with no memories of it.

Literally nobody would have known except Sabrina, Homura and Sayaka... if it went smoothly.

All hypothetical, of course, since it's never going to happen.

I'm...pretty sure we're just going to end up taking the Rionna solution to the issue of the Iowa group. Or at least the Anri solution.

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Hopefully not the Rionna solution, as that was basically us getting autopiloted through the solution. Anri... I've got to ask honestly, is anyone happy that we left her catatonic at the end of the fight?

There's a good example of someone we didn't have enough info on to talk down properly.

EDIT: Oops, mixing up with Akiko. For Anri, we still had to leave it up to Oriko to talk her down - we don't even know everything Oriko said to her, all we were able to do was tie her up and plonk her in front of Oriko. We still didn't actually have the chops to talk her down ourselves.

 

[SaltyWaffles]

Which reminds me of a point that I forgot in my last post. We want to make a lasting organization that is larger than us to advance our goals of a global sisterhood standing together and helping each other out. Right now, we are setting an example for our successors. If we build our power through force of arms, we aren't going to end up with the Federation; we're going to end up with the Imperium of Man.

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"And lo, the God-Empress of Meguca-kind took up her Grief Throne, and ruled with the great and unmatched wisdom of one with such magnificent power!"

"Oh, Sabrina..."

 

[defenestrator]

The way I'm imagine it, Homura probably wouldn't have argued much. Sayaka or Umika, if we brought them to do the mind-reading, could well have become upset especially if the memories are as brutal as they're held to be, but that's the only real hurdle I'd imagine there would have been. If Sabrina borrowed the X-File gem and could do the reading herself (or used Grief to make some mind-reading substitute) there wouldn't even be that. Sayaka could just stand back and copy the powers while the Sabrina and Homura plucked the Soul Gems out of Iowa members and brought them into timestop one at a time for mindreading.

Even the Iowa group wouldn't know at the end, because we'd wipe their minds and leave them where we found them with no memories of it.

Literally nobody would have known except Sabrina, Homura and Sayaka... if it went smoothly.

All hypothetical, of course, since it's never going to happen.

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The way you imagine it though. So it only has an illusory appearance of cleanly getting away with it in your imagination.

Also, this does not answer my question.

Edit: Imperium of Man? Anyone got that image of the 'Cool Imperium - totally missing the point' meme?
Edit2: Found it.

 

[PistachioCookies]

The way you imagine it though. So it only has an illusory appearance of cleanly getting away with it in your imagination.

Also, this does not answer my question.

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Which is why I said if it went smoothly.

There would always have been the chance that it wouldn't. In which case, I refer you to what SaltyWaffles said about people getting nervous and scared when they hear you've been out reading people's minds in timestop like you're treating them like pieces of meat or tools to manipulate.

That's just for Iowa, of course.

For mind-reading people in general, it depends on who it is and their circumstances. You can get actually away with it for a really, really long time if you're surreptitious enough about it and efficient at wiping other people's memories.

I'm not just talking out of my ass here - look at the antagonist of Suzune Magica. She DID get away doing it for a long, long time.

 

[Firnagzen]

@PistachioCookies Just stop. We're not interested. This is not the thread for it, and I would argue that no thread is. Going "haha I wouldn't buuuut here's what it would be like if I were going to haha" is a dogwhistle I have no interest in entertaining further.

Drop it, or I will boot you from the thread.

 

[Godwinson]

@PistachioCookies Just stop. We're not interested. This is not the thread for it, and I would argue that no thread is. Going "haha I wouldn't buuuut here's what it would be like if I were going to haha" is a dogwhistle I have no interest in entertaining further.

Drop it, or I will boot you from the thread.

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Please tell me that this shit isn't going to mess with Sabrina during the update? Like, maybe she thinks about it during a lull when other stuff isn't going on, but we really don't need another vomit-incident caused by one jerk derailing the thread.

 

[Firnagzen]

Please tell me that this shit isn't going to mess with Sabrina during the update? Like, maybe she thinks about it during a lull when other stuff isn't going on, but we really don't need another vomit-incident caused by one asshole derailing the thread.

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It's not.

 

[PistachioCookies]

Just stop. We're not interested. This is not the thread for it, and I would argue that no thread is. Going "haha I wouldn't buuuut here's what it would be like if I were going to haha" is a dogwhistle I have no interest in entertaining further.

Drop it, or I will boot you from the thread.

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So noted.

I assume by this you're referring to the topic of mind-reading people on the whole and not just Iowa, although I will just clarify that my suggestions on mind-reading (particularly to clear Oriko's innocence) were not made in jest and I would in fact vote for them if someone else were to post on it.