Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Wasn't really aimed at you, just a good point to establish it for the thread. Again.
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
- Location
- a Minecraft Rollercoaster
Welp, we're doomed given the past 5 of so pages
Also, Sabrina, what do you think the fight against be like if we need to defeat her "with people" ? Literally convince as many gucas as possible to fight Walmart Night, or just be kind and help other gucas and Walpy automatically becomes easier without bringing more people to the fight?
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
If you can get Mami to give informed consent I'll allow every part of that plan but pouring the drink. For that you need to seek approval from Kyoko Sakura.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
[Q] Ask Mami if she ever thought of having children.
-[Q] Die from embarrassment, but not before Homura shoots herself with a ( toy ) pistol from the sheer agony of hearing these unnecessary details about her daughter's life.
If I don't gather enough support, we can always go with the Plan B and adopt Homura. I guess.
Solarstream
It's all in the cards
- Location
- Zombie World
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Separate her into her component witches, you mean? I'd support this if we can figure out how.
I mean, as much as PMAS is a Quest, it's also a story. The idea is literally a recurring theme I've woven into the structure of the writing that I continuously reinforce, and if you can't pick that up from the text, well, I don't know what to say. Sabrina has the biggest damn hammer around, but none of her actual problems are nails, to repeat myself. I'll consider making it a pinned/informative post, but no one actually reads those, anyway.
People are not numbers, or assets, or firepower. The moment you start thinking about them as such, you've already failed. People are people. My point is not that you don't need work put in to beat Walpurgisnacht. My point is that if you think it's as simple as a straight-up slugging match, and that to win it you just need to stack up assets or firepower or numbers in whatever form, you've missed the point of the Quest.
It's also not about wordplay, either, or catching me out on phrasing. You can try to equivocate "but people are assets" but that just... fundamentally misses the point. I don't know how else I can explain that. And sure, people need support. Food and housing is solved by money, which, hey - between Sabrina and Homura, you can conjure up nearly arbitrary quantities of the stuff, and not just by stealing. Cleansing? Sabrina. The trivialities are already solved, in a similar way to combat being mostly solved, so that the focus can be on actual conflicts.
Sure, here it is: Sabrina can move arbitrarily fast, because as I've mentioned before, Grief is inviolate to physics. The limits are effectively politeness (not breaking stuff or people), comfort, and range. And also utility.
And before anyone goes off about this - yeah, Sabrina could crack the planet in half from a standing start. Why on earth would she want to do that? All her stuff is here. Mami's here. Madoka would be disappointed in her, let alone Homura. Heck, even the Incubators would be disappointed in her, and that right there is a new low, getting the emotionless aliens disappointed in you.
I have a question related to this. It's not practical now, and only becomes relevant after we've theoretically solved all the problems on Earth, but...
Does that lack of limit on her speed include FTL? Because after we help all of humanity, we'll have to consider if we're actually capable of doing anything about the other races that are at least claimed to exist within the MG system by Kyubey.
- Location
- Illinois
All -- ALL, not most, not many, ALL -- of this quest's greatest moments and achievements come from insights in TALKING TO PEOPLE.
Never has there been a combat vote which has, through its audacity or insight or meticulously planned detail, re-railed the course of this quest. Never happened.
"Timestop and degem her" -- the most dangerous fight we've ever had, Rionna Mag Aoidh.
"I found her" -- the most impactful non-social thing that has ever happened in here, the result of *totally random fucking chance.*
If you look at the other side of the coin?
The times we've explained people to Homura. *Everything* to do with Mami (because she's perfect). Everything we've done to accomplish... Not pushing Sayaka away, because gods, we could've. We wouldn't have had to have meant to do it. It could've been as simple as not treating her as as much of an equal as we've managed to. Keeping Oriko alive.
If you want a quest with similar emotional depth and more of a focus on combat, that's called BAHHSCQ and it's not dead. The real questions of combat here are whether to fight and when to fight... Getting those right and wrong *does* matter.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
The qualifier is essential, important, and true.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Now to also realize what that abbreviation means
I vaguely remember, but I forgot
Eh
You know what I mean
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Battle Action Highschool Harem Side Character Quest, IIRC.Now to also realize what that abbreviation means
I vaguely remember, but I forgot
Eh
You know what I mean
Byline: "No SV, you are the Waifu."
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Ah yes. Couldn't quite get into it.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
Good point. Though Madoka isn't immune to doing things that hurt Homura because she didn't think it through, I guess? Like we don't know how much "Fix it"!Madoka knew about Homura and the whole situation when she made her wish. Even Madokami seems to have made a misjudgment in Rebellion.
Literally all powers are conceptual. Homura's Time Stop makes NO non-conceptual sense AT ALL. Mami can literally materialize, trace, and transfer something as fucking vague and subjective as karmic connections. Tart wished to be the Light of France and her wish warps fate and causality to make her a Mary Sue protagonist.
Like... physical forces and the like only trump Magical Girls' subjective impositions of their inner realities because Magical Girls have a fucking magic budget and reality actively hates and counteracts magic. Waluprgisnacht is just so fucking huge her budget is basically infinite.
Appletank
Acquire Cheese
For some reason the first thing that came to mind was Sabrina Grabbing the speck in our Gem with grief and metaphorically shaking her shoulders while shouting "DON'T BE EVVVILLL"
Sabrina comes out of the Warehouse, and to the shocked stares of the rest of Mitikihara's Magical Girls, with another Sabrina following behind her, except with more black and red eyes.
"So, we had a talk." Sabrina explains.
"Yo," said Anti-Sabrina
"We bonded over breaking Kyubey's backs over our knees"
Sayaka raised a finger. "Backs?"
"We make thousands of grief knees and aim it at the Incubator Planet" Anti-Sabrina said enthusiastically. Probably a bit too enthusiastically.
Homura catches herself nodding in agreement.
"Also Mami hugs." Both Sabrinas nod at each other. "Hugs. Yes"
Mami starts floating.
Regarding combat: When Sabrina really has to go all out with her grief, she can basically wreck everything (unlike our hilariously woeful melee skills, though we have yet to try our Smash Melee skill). Which is probably why Firn keeps telling us to stop focusing on it. Beating Walluigi is not going to be accomplished by "Going All Out" because that would probably burn the planet. Instead, try thinking about how the PSP version won, or something to that affect?
(Yes that was a Scott Pilgrim Reference. No I have no really watched/read it. Only osmosis)
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Always Happening
We could have prevented this.
- Location
- On a train with no brakes
Realistically, there's no non-WPN combat encounter we can't solve with liberal application of monomolecular razor clouds, so getting out in the weeds speculating on that front is pointless.
Also, it just occured to me that if we need funds and don't want to rob the Yakuza again, Niko's molecular alchemy can easily, precisely, and completely extract precious metals from objects; just raid the loading docks of all the universities in the prefecture of the old electronics they're throwing out and we'll be sitting on a pretty hefty pile of cash.
Also, it just occured to me that if we need funds and don't want to rob the Yakuza again, Niko's molecular alchemy can easily, precisely, and completely extract precious metals from objects; just raid the loading docks of all the universities in the prefecture of the old electronics they're throwing out and we'll be sitting on a pretty hefty pile of cash.
DB_Explorer
Purveyor of alternate realities.
- Location
- San Diego, California
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Army of Sayaka clones to keep the peace
ALL HAIL THE NEW WORLD ORDER
: P
ALL HAIL THE NEW WORLD ORDER
: P
- Location
- Illinois
*Arguably* (NOT definitely, because the reverse is also arguably true, probably *easier to argue as well*) we didn't at first, but then the Sayaka nation contracted.
UARTman
Flat Snark
- Location
- Russia, unfortunately
- Pronouns
- He/Him
This is not even fully wrong: we do intend to create a post-scarcity magical girl society, after all.
King Washington
Semi-Depressed Lurker
- Location
- Indiana
Sabrina: "Attention, Magical Girls of the World! You have been cheated and lied to! The gentle Magical Girl shall no longer suffer from the noxious greed of Kyubey! We will dismantle oppression board by board! We'll saw the foundation of the Puella Magi System in half, even if it takes an eternity! With your support, we will send the hammer of the people's will crashing through the windows of Kyubey's house of servitude!"
- Location
- Laniakea
Thank you, I would like draw attention to this very last sentence in particular. Kyubey.
See, the thing that galls me is that no matter how much it's repeated that the quest is about people, nobody ever seems to treat Kyubey as a person.
Kyubey is pretty much the biggest person in the entire quest, both literally in terms of sheer physical mass if you took all of his bodies and piled them all up as well as figuratively representing the biggest problem to deal with and yet nobody seems to be interested in extracting information on his agenda or circumstances. No one wants to know how he found out about Homura or why he didn't contract Nagisa. Nobody even knows for certain what he's after right now and just assume it's still energy as per explanation in canon.
No, people are not (purely) tools or assets, the people are the problem in this quest that need to be solved, they are the "actual conflicts" mentioned. Their conflicting agendas, motivations and circumstances. With the combat being just another tool used to resolve them, albeit a blunt hammer and not always suitable for everything. Hugs and motivational speeches are another tool, like a screwdriver, but end up just as blunt as a hammer if applied in the wrong fashion.
Throwing words at people without knowing their circumstances is just beating them over the head with the butt of the screwdriver, or like using a flathead to turn a Phillips-shaped hole. Now maybe sometimes you CAN beat a screw into the hole with the butt, or force the edge of the flathead into a Phillips with enough repeated application, but that's hugely inefficient and is liable to end up ruining the head of the screw.
The REAL key to dealing with it is in information warfare. Knowing which type of screwdriver to apply, which way to turn it. People unravel much more easily if you know their agenda and circumstances. This is what Kyubey does. He is very, very good at it.
And yet nobody wants to phish for any information on Kyubey, our biggest, fattest screw with the most oddly-shaped head due to his lack of emotions. Nobody wants to ask about people who could potentially teleport into Mitakihara. Nobody wants to ask about Madoka's backstory or even what Homura or Sayaka knows about Madoka's backstory.
Nobody even has to balls to ask Homura if she actually likes cats or figure out whether she would lie about it just to please Madoka and really hates them due to being the cause of Madoka contracting.
That's kind of sad.
I can think of several, actually, most of them involving a Homura who turns against us.Realistically, there's no non-WPN combat encounter we can't solve with liberal application of monomolecular razor clouds, so getting out in the weeds speculating on that front is pointless.
Rionna isn't a particularly good example, Firn called fiat on that whole thing and basically skipped whatever fight there might have been to remove her quickly.
The Oriko fight, on the other hand, is what I would call an example of near-failure due to poor combat planning.
I would like to point out that the reason combat votes haven't been the result of any large swerve in plot is mainly because we haven't killed anyone yet and the accepted goal of the quest is to keep as many people alive as possible. Hence any "victory" that keeps everyone intact is merely continuing the status quo. I don't think I need to do much to convince anyone that the moment someone - especially someone important - gets killed through a poorly-planned combat action, it would re-rail (well, DE-rail) the quest in spectacular fashion.
Oriko could have very easily died in that fight. Homura had half-killed her and we ended up needing to sacrifice a lot of trust with her to convince her to heal Oriko. I don't think I need to say how differently things would have turned out if Oriko had actually died during that fight.
Pointing quickly to what Firn mentioned:
Mostly is not absolutely. All it takes is one fight to go bad and you have a massive headache on your hands.
My takeaway from what he is saying is that Sabrina can pull a victory out of pretty much any combat circumstance - but how often that victory may end up being a Pyrrhic one is an altogether different story. In a hypothetical fight against Homura, Sabrina might even win if she has her Grief cloud deployed when the Timestop goes up and Homura is touching it - she'll be in "contact", thereby bypassing the stop and able to instantly murder Homura by shredding her apart with aforementioned Grief particles moving at unlimited, arbitrarily high speeds.
The issue is that this isn't the "victory" you actually want, you actually want Homura alive and preferably sane and friendly again. And capturing Homura alive would take a very well-planned combat vote.
I'm feeling like half the people here - possibly including Firn - are defining "combat" in a narrow sense as being equivalent to "open warfare, physical destruction" when it can encompass defensive, protective and non-lethal actions as well. Just keeping everyone alive during a fight is also a combat action and that requires a well thought-out plan, especially if the people you are trying to protect are situated more than 100 meters away from Sabrina outside of her "range-of-physical-omnipotence". I would also regard a CIA/men-in-black covert mass-kidnapping operation of the Iowa Group before they get a chance to fight back as a combat action... and again, that is not something that's going to happen successfully without being well-planned in advance.
And as I said before, I support kidnapping Iowa because their potential clairvoyant could be OUR potential clairvoyant and that's too good a chance to pass up. Morally iffy it might be, but I'd still be down for kidnapping them, copying their powers and reading their minds, wiping their memories and then dumping them back before they knew they were gone.