- Location
- Australia
Well some times you just have to launch your friends at something like a witch or a group of hostile magical girls. Because who would ever expect that?
Puella Magi Adfligo Systema
- Thread starter Firnagzen
- Start date
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- Tags
- puella magi adfligo systema puella magi madoka magica be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist bad decisions dating mami tomoe (tomoe mami) diabolical laughter friendship is the best ship handholding identity crises microwaving tea gets you put in the bad place names are important the body is the fursona of the soul this is not the baked goods thread we don't talk about rionna what could possibly go wrong? who in the world is azure sanfrancisco?
Let's say I ignore the phrasing on the quote you just brought up (which I had read before, but forgot because it was I don't even know how long ago), in particular the word threat. And further more let's leave whether 'we can totally learn how to do the time thing' is true for later speculation.
I did in fact say that we can contact Dedolere, and referenced the pinprick of grief in our soul gem as a possible avenue to do this. I just do not know if we should do this since it may or may not be hostile depending on what precisely is going on in the future and we certainly can't take it as we are. We could try to do it regardless of this uncertainty by a mechanism such as the ones we have available, which I believe may work, particularly if she wants to talk to us.
Which clearly mistaken assumption do I have roaming around here at the moment?
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- Location
- a Minecraft Rollercoaster
Hm, if the Walpy fight needs social, and not because of Feathers coming, perhaps there is a reason why we don't want to curbstomo Walpy. Say because if we are Walpy, then defeating Walpy means we are also defeated, aka "Stop hitting yourself"?
If Feathers is Dedolere then we're probably not WPN because Feathers probably has the angel theme for her appearance and WPN does not (though this is of course not necessarily true). If WPN requires social it's probably just because it is completely unwinnable in any other way without Madoka and we're not using Madoka, period.
The main reason I never thought we were WPN is because that'd be tremendously cruel towards Homura.
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- Location
- Laniakea
Oh, I certainly don't think it's out of the question for Feathers to be Dedolere.
Oriko did say that Feathers isn't a Witch, which means if it IS Dedolere she must be some kind of hybrid being ala Homucifer or Isabeau from Tart Magica. Ontological threat indeed. I personally suspect that Sabrina - and by extension Dedolere - might be some sort of gestalt being made from the fusion of multiple magical girls or girls' souls. Like Niko's Hyades Daybreak was meant to be, except as a human and not a Witch. It would be a parallel of the way she is meant to be controlled by a collective SV instead of being a single person. This gestalt possibly comprising all of the girls she has metaknowledge about, including Homura (and possibly Tart).
Thing is-- why stop at one?
I do suspect there might, in fact, be more than one reality warper that will end up in play. Possibly Madokami. Possibly Kyubey.
My bet is on some form of Madokami.
Why? Because Madoka's PSP-canonical background about being a transfer student was vetoed by Firnagzen for the quest. If her background didn't at all matter, there would've been no reason for Firn to deliver a definite fiat when it was raised, he could simply have said "I don't like it and disagree, but whatever makes you sleep at night".
That he declared otherwise makes me believe her backstory is, in fact, quite critical to the quest's plotline. Makes me suspect some form of Madokami is incoming.
Like Hitomi (and in my opinion, Kyubey) I suspect she is one of the more as-yet under-explored characters (in this quest) holding important information we will want to extract from sooner rather than later.
Quite a pity nobody seems to want to vote for meeting up with the Pleiades Saints again. Madoka does so love her cats.
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The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
Okay, instead of looking for more ways to fight or overpower the witch have you considered how to interact with Walpurgisnacht as a person?
It's one of the core recurring lines of the quest after all: It's always about the people.
As to info on the who of who Walpurgisnacht might be, some thoughts.
1 We might be (a fragment of) Walpurgisnacht and
2 That WPN, not Feathers, might have been talking the one talking to us during the invisitext lines.
In the first case, it's quite relevant that Sabrina's witch's name is "Dedolere" and that that roughly translates to "I grieve no more/you will cut away a piece of me." It speaks volumes about the mindset and core desires of any witch she might have spawned from (generally agreed to be pretty likely, even if its split into camps over what Sabrina originates from), since it's not unreasonable that that witch would share Sabrina's witch name and everything that followed from it.
The latter is something I've batted around here and there. I don't have the old thoughts loaded into memory but it's an option for brute force analysis and it would imply a great deal about WPN's nature and intentions.
Are these lines of inquiry on base? Maybe, maybe not. But if you want something fundamentally different, here's an angle. And one that leads into further questions: How do you talk with a witch? How would you persuade them? (well, probably not remotely easily) Could we create a variation of our "self control" enchantment to make witches lucid? Etc.
Consider the effects when Nadia's power is applied: If she cannot be stopped in moving then you have an Armor-Penetrating and/or Bunker-Busting Intercontinental Ballistic Miki.
Why would our own self be hostile?
Because that's the thing. That witch? That's you. If it's any specific part of you then it's your suffering and "curses" and how those things shape you.
If Candeloro is Mami's loneliness then she may be the part that wants to forget the world and have tea parties, but she's also everything that drives to be a shining hero and save people. [Note to self, save this point for if and when we find a way to talk to Mami about the witchbomb. I feel it has merit there.]
And likewise if Dedolere is our need for power, control, and our manipulative side, she's also behind the side of us that wants to bring forth the vision of a kinder world. The desire to change the world is, in part, a desire for the power to control it, after all.
(Incidentally, I wonder if that's what we did wrong last time. We tried to talk to Dedolere, but we did it like therapist or a negotiator. Perhaps we should try it in a manner that fundamentally embraces our inner control freak. In character of action as well as non-metaphorical intent.)
And a final note:
Note that Feathers being Dedolere is still very much a matter of debate. This is PMAS. There is no theoretical consensus and we argue about everything.
Incidentally on that note, @Godwinson are you sure about those arguments you mentioned popping up concurrent with the witch feedback? Because back when I was reading through the thread I wasn't feeling them in the zeitgeist at the time those. Admittedly, I could easily have missed them.
Because the witch is super depressed us. Self hatred can very much come with that package, as well as hatred of other people whom Sabrina cares for and would grieve for. If I was a witch with possible retcon powers, I'd probably make it so Sabrina won't grieve by removing the people she got attached to from the timeline before she was able to meet them. Unless something stopped me, which is completely possible under the multiple reality warpers theory.
This is of course not necessarily the case, and most likely not at all if we're WPN, whose motivations would have more to do with her original history than Sabrina's life, but it is a possible interpretation. And I continue to dislike the idea we're WPN for multiple reasons.
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- Location
- Not the asylum anymore
- Pronouns
- She/Her
That's our solution if coobs kicks off WW3 out of spite.
Intercept all the nukes by yeeting Sayakas at them.
There is nothing that can wrong with this plan.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Thanks for telling me. I was hoping to get it put in the next plan if this one was too full, but if Iowa isn't supposed to be a combat problem that's okay too.
While the most recent iteration didn't need to give Kirika the ammo (the idea was to give it to Sayaka), you make good points that I was unaware of about how shooting a magical girl is just as effective as antimagic and enchantments break down over time. Thank you for taking the time to inform me of these reasons.
- Location
- The state of Paranoia
Alright, I'm going to propose another idea, since apparently I'm a glutton for punishment.
Could Firn (once he wakes up) put up a threadmark either at the beginning of the thread or where we are now, that just says something along the lines of:
*This is a social quest. Yes, combat does sometimes happen, no it is not useful to be prepared for. You are more powerful than any threat you can defeat through firepower, the only thing that matters in this quest is social.*
Seriously, up until Firn basically came out and said that combat planning isn't important, I had been completely sure that Iowa was going to be a combat challenge. Based on how often non regulars like me come up with really cool combat ideas and subsequently get shot down, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one under this kind of delusion. I think it would benefit the regulars quite a lot if us non regulars would come into this already knowing that combat related ideas are not helpful or welcome here. Plus it would benefit the non regulars as well, because we would know not to bother typing up our ideas.
Could Firn (once he wakes up) put up a threadmark either at the beginning of the thread or where we are now, that just says something along the lines of:
*This is a social quest. Yes, combat does sometimes happen, no it is not useful to be prepared for. You are more powerful than any threat you can defeat through firepower, the only thing that matters in this quest is social.*
Seriously, up until Firn basically came out and said that combat planning isn't important, I had been completely sure that Iowa was going to be a combat challenge. Based on how often non regulars like me come up with really cool combat ideas and subsequently get shot down, I'm pretty sure I'm not the only one under this kind of delusion. I think it would benefit the regulars quite a lot if us non regulars would come into this already knowing that combat related ideas are not helpful or welcome here. Plus it would benefit the non regulars as well, because we would know not to bother typing up our ideas.
AuraTwilight
The Sorcerer of Smiles
- Location
- The Silver City
There's literally several instances in canon of Magical Girls speaking to their own Witch like some sort of Persona 4 Shadow Self. Mami speaks to Candeloro during a Grief Spiral in Another Story. Oriko is verbally abused by a child-self implied to be her witch in Sadness Prayer or Symmetry Diamond (I forget witch). Hell, multiple stories in Magia Record. Which isn't as useful a data point considering the weirdness of Kamihama, but still.
There's precedent for confronting one's own Witch in a Battle Inside the Mind. The problem is that we'd need to like, deliberately grief spiral if we're to use the canonical methods.
Witches can change their natures based on the mindset of the Magical Girl at the time of the witch-out. Homulilly was once the Mortal World Witch, and then in Rebellion she's the Nutcracker Witch. This is not a retcon, because the Mortal World iteration is still canonical to Magia Record. And before you mention it, no, we don't know WPN's actual name, so it could've been Dedolere for all we know.
Also, when has anything being cruel towards Homura been evidence against it's likelihood as opposed to evidence FOR it? Homura's entire life is being shat on by the universe, all the time.
- Location
- USA
So when do we tell Homura (and Yuki?) we've come to the realization we're going to be ignoring her list of suggested girls and not bother recruiting anyone else intentionally?
Because.... that does seem like the message being given, much like Sentient Tree got. Helping Ono or Asunaro etc because they're in trouble or existing social links is one thing, but outside of such cases social IS firepower when it comes to recruiting extra magical girls with "useful" powers for WPN or otherwise.
Having Fukushima to keep captives under guard until we can figure out their crazy is a form of firepower. Aaand.... well, I'd ask how a certain magical girl was possibly social and not combat, but we don't talk about her here anymore. Does make me wonder how Iowa will go.... but then I'm already a bit lost with "Speculating ideas might be fun, but I want to tell the story of getting there" in the case of a Quest and not a normal Author-Fiction.
More especially in a Quest where we've ALSO been told we are meant to Act and not React, so we aren't supposed to sit back and wait for Soujos/Iowa/WPN to come to us while we spend the meantime building up the foundations of the Mahou Shoujo Youkai.
The problem is that's mostly untrue. Most of Sabrina's fights against magical girls amount to surviving getting tossed around until the other side runs out of magic or ideas and then finally catching them. A group of magical girls could detach someone to tie her up while they try to get everyone else. Hostages, even random people we don't actually know, would be all too effective as well, which is why my first instinct was to take the fight to the Iowa group in a deserted countryside where that sort of classical villain tactics can't be used.
Sabrina could in theory become unbeatable, but she spends way too much time doing arguably more important things. Also, she'd have to carry around pre-prepared items of the witchy kind, since they take too long to make in combat, and that'd annoy everyone she meets. When she does ditch social links and spends a week doing SCIENCE to build an arsenal of doom, such confidence will actually be justified.
I mean, you could also take this to mean that we should never actually be fighting anyone, combat is inherently a failure mode and we should focus on succeeding through diplomacy. But I'm skeptical about that.
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- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
@Firnagzen
So, just to be clear, can we get explicit WoG that Sabrina can move grief arbitrarily fast? (Or that her intuition tells her that there is no speed limit on her power, which is the same thing but with more IC framing and less OOC knowledge?)
So, just to be clear, can we get explicit WoG that Sabrina can move grief arbitrarily fast? (Or that her intuition tells her that there is no speed limit on her power, which is the same thing but with more IC framing and less OOC knowledge?)
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Why noooooot
*whines*
Well, that's just racist.
Homura did that.
Madoka did that.
Sayaka did that.
Our little adopted sister did that.
Kirika did that.
Our bestest Asunaro friends experimented with that.
Who are we not to follow the trend?
No objections otherwise.
Jonen C
F.M.D.G.
- Location
- Lincopense, Ostrogothia, Suecia
Not in Mitakihara, not before Walpurgis, and submit an application on how the work will be compliant with Japanese workplace safety regulations, then we'll talk.
They am play god.Well, that's just racist.
Homura did that.
Madoka did that.
Sayaka did that.
Our little adopted sister did that.
Kirika did that.
Our bestest Asunaro friends experimented with that.
Who are we not to follow the trend?
I would be willing to replace grief with artificial for now, and its subject to the limitations above, plus I'd ask you supply an ethics compliance statement for both of them. And a syllabus for raising a healthy, non-homicidal AI childe.
And for both I'd ask for a written note from Mami agreeing to this.
Creating life/intelligence is a long term commitment.
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Hug therapy. There, any potential problems solved. If the problems are not solved, ( or compliance laws documentation is not properly filled out in triplicate) simply apply more hugs.
Look, I'm not going anywhere. Not until we raise an adorable baby familiar that vaguely looks like a chibi mix of Mami, Sabrina and a murderblender. I will campaign for this and stuff, gathering support to overthrow your tyranny of safety regulations and moral standards in the name of SCIENCE!
And when the ashes settle down, revealing the broken ruin of a world that is the folly of Megucakind, I shall microwave myself some tea, and sip it, before spilling the rest of the profane liquid on the blackened soil.
Heads up, just so you know.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Ah, and we've entered the "throw the toys out of the tram in a fit" phase. Fantastic. Please note a very important word in Firn's statement:
Furthermore, note that it was about Walpurgisnacht? And brute force? Throwing a fit and insisting on wrecking things because the quest isn't a biggaton wank-fest is not a good look on folks.
Counter-argument: your supposition would require Madoka to be explicitly cruel toward Homura with her wish.
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Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
I mean, aside from memes and jokes, I thought we've already debunked that "WN is Sabrina is Tart" theory.
Firstly, Sabrina doesn't have a French accent.
Secondly, Sabrina wears pants. Walpurgisnacht doesn't.
The evidence is right here if you only look for it, people.
Firstly, Sabrina doesn't have a French accent.
Secondly, Sabrina wears pants. Walpurgisnacht doesn't.
The evidence is right here if you only look for it, people.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I mean, depends on what you mean by "wasting energy". If it amuses the thread, and by extension Sabrina, it's not a total waste - I certainly don't regret MECHA ZILLA GURREN LAGANN.
It's just an idea that needs to be filed appropriately, in the "impractical silly goofing off" column.
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
If it was given that level of effort and weight in discussion, it'd be a lot less obnoxious, yeah.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
Going by the extended PMMM materials, literally 0 damage up until Madoka did her thing.
Walpurgisnacht's whole thing is imposing helplessness on others, bringing their efforts to nothing should she so choose.
Raiseth
I Find Your Lack of Memes Disturbing
- Location
- Russia
Homura's options were severely limited in that fight, on account of
-Witches take less damage from mundane objects than magical ones
-Homura's magic abilities are shit on account of her getting way over her Potential and then loaning more from a hundred Moemuras just to get the time travel ability
She's able to kill normal Witches with a liberal application of explosives, but Walugi ain't it
Which is actually the idea behind enchanting bullets so that they do anti/magical damage
Godwinson
"Well, I've got nothing."
Walpurgisnacht took approximately-- *checks notes* pumpernickel points of damage measured in HP.