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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Chuuni meguca would be super-effective against Wallachianight. Give her Nokia armor and all is solved~
 
TJSomething said:
I'm pretty sure that WPN is a chuuni. And when you have two of them, they synergize and make ever more melodramatic delusions.
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... Delusions so interesting, they completely dismiss the normal world around them in favor of playacting. It doesn't kill WPN, but THIS is how so few cities have been harvested by her in the past. Walpurgisnacht just has no ability to focus.
DB_Explorer said:
Make WPN delude herself into thinking she's a normal guuca

befriend new Gucca

BAM battle won
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Generally agreed, but needs to be plural? Or are they all Kosh at this point?
Redshirt Army said:
I mean, it's PMMM technology.

Their 2011 smartphones are probably indestructible and last 3 weeks on a full charge. :V
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I bet the flagship model has a small holo-screen. This world still being recognizably Japan also implies a Y7500 candybar feature phone is right next to it in the display case, though.
 
Kaizuki said:
Please provide constructive alternatives if you know Akemi Homura so well.
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I have two ideas.

My first was what I've been recommending: Give Homura a mission to carry out.

One which will not impede her main goal of protecting Madoka and the success of which is independent of, and thus will not be compromised by, the Potentialbomb. Ideally it also would be one whose success FURTHERS the main mission and whose own success rate would be IMPROVED by the reveal of the Potentialbomb. (And the closest thing I can come up with that fits the bill in that regard is working on de-Contracting).

Why a mission?

Because Homura is - in a most literal, most unhealthy sense of the term - a woman on a mission. The mission to protect Madoka is everything to her. Her life for the cause. If it turned out her existence was jeopardizing it, she would seriously consider killing herself for it. There is nothing for her but the mission.

As I mentioned to HeroCycle, back in that fourth loop when Madoka made Homura promise to stop her from contracting, Homura had been ready to die in some twisted lover's suicide with Madoka. "How about we both become Witches and tear up this rotten world together?"

Homura had basically already given up at that point. It's the promise she made - the mission - that has been the only thing that has been keeping her going since. Give her an alternate mission and at least she will still have something left to cling to even if she starts doubting the viability of the first - even moreso if she thinks succeeding in it can make up for her (perceived) failure the Potentialbomb exposes.

The second alternative, somewhat not quite as good I feel, is to make a Promise with her.

Not just a casual promise, but a hard Promise. With a capital P. Pledged in such context as to leave no room for doubt. Serious, sworn Promises are sacred. They are missions. That's the kind of language Homura understands. We already swore one to her in regards to keeping her up to date and with veto rights over the Oriko situation (which is probably why she apologized for forbidding us from moving Oriko when Oriko was having fits - she knows full well what it feels like for a Promise to cause someone pain). We swore another not to tell any secrets that weren't ours to tell.

So we can either A) Get Homura to make a Promise to us that she will do everything in her power to keep BOTH herself and Madoka alive, forcing her to think twice about suicide when the Potentialbomb hits or B) Make a hard Promise to Homura that we WILL keep Homura (as well as Madoka) alive until Walpurgisnacht is dead, guilting enough to put her off killing herself, since doing so would force us into breaking OUR Promise.

Effectively, we're forcing her to choose between conflicting missions.

The reason I feel this is not so good an alternative is because, in order to work, Homura would need to hold us in nearly as high regard as she does Madoka for any Promise made with her to end up generating any serious hesitation and conflict over her Promise to Madoka ... and I don't think Homura holds us in quite that much esteem right now. Unlike Madoka, we haven't sacrificed ourselves to save Homura yet. We'd have to work very hard on it. It's certainly possible that we could eventually get there (if I didn't think we could I wouldn't consider it a viable alternative at all), just have doubts over whether we could do it before the Potentialbomb hits

Plus, in the case of B), there is a slim chance it could make Homura try to physically fight us. Either to test our resolve on that Promise and/or force us to resolve the conflict for her by having us make the choice of either killing Homura or snatching her Soul Gem, or - assuming she goes particularly irrational and insane - thinking the best way to revolve the conflict is to make Sabrina dead, so the Promise won't matter and Homura can suicide peacefully.
AuraTwilight said:
Madoka's not really a good argument of being a source for encouragement for Homura because A) Madoka doesn't know Homura anymore and has never verbally understood and condoned what she's done, except like when she becomes God. B) Homura's idealization and idolization and basically worship of Madoka puts her on such a saintly pedestal that her mindset is basically "Of COURSE she sees something good in a worthless Good For Nothing like me, she's the saintliest, kindest, goodest person in the world."

There is IMMENSE value in people who know the current Homura, and her secret struggles, who are not "perfect saints" like Madoka, still condoning and appreciating and validating Homura.

She hasn't gotten that in literally over a decade.
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Very true. (For the most part anyway, your first point about Madoka is a bit off - during Nova Prospect 37 when Homura revealed her status to Mami, she confirmed "only Madoka ever believed me", which means she did in fact tell Madoka the whole truth during some previous loops and got believed and probably got the same soothing words of encouragement Madoka would've given her in Homura's Revenge when it happened.)

The main problem is, as you said, Homura probably hasn't gotten what you have described in over a decade-- and she still hasn't.

Or didn't until Nova Prospect 37, at least. Why? Because Sabrina is ALSO, basically, a "perfect saint" to Homura. Maybe not as holy as Madoka, but certainly close.

Merciful like an angel to Oriko, someone who attacked their friends and liable to try and kill Madoka. Descending like a saint to quell the conflict between girls in Ishinomaki, Sendai and Fukushima for no other reason than wanting to help. Savior of Mami Tomoe, miraculously keeping alive despite the Lichbomb. Bringer of the miracle that got Sayaka worshipping Homura.

Remember, Homura doesn't even believe Sabrina is fully human (which, arguably, she isn't given the description of her soul... and speaking like a robot during the first meeting probably didn't help either). From early on - as early as the Oriko fight - she believed Sabrina to be some sort of messianic savior brought about by Madoka's previous wish, the second coming brought to Earth to accomplish Homura has never been able to achieve on her own in her loops. A divine wish-born superhero given form.

Sabrina is one of the worst people to be singing Homura's praises in that regard. Mami got more of a result from Homura when she hugged her upon finding out about her time travels than we did.

Compare this:
Firnagzen said:
You smile at her. "You are kind of amazing, you know that? You did this, all of this, for Madoka. You've never given up, even after everything that's happened and everything you've learned. You made yourself better, and you keep going," you say, gesticulating to emphasize your point. "Homura, do you have any idea how few people would be able to do that? Pick themselves up and just... carry on?"

Homura looks taken aback. "I- For Madoka, it's worth it. Anything is." Her eyes are wide, and her expression is more unguarded than you've ever seen of her when she's awake.

"Perhaps so," you reply. "But the fact is that you do it. You keep going. And not just that. You still try to save the others. Mami, Sayaka, Kyouko... Oh, I'm sure you tell yourself that it's because Madoka cares about them. But after all's said and done? You still try! Perhaps you don't succeed. Perhaps you made mistakes. But you tried!" You pause to take a breath. "I care, Homura, because you deserve it. I know what you've been through."

"I- I..." she swallows heavily, and begins to loosen her hand on your shoulder. You've been expecting this, though, and lightning quick, you reach up and grab her hand clamping her hand down against your shoulder to prevent her from running away from this conversation.
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Firnagzen said:
"Homura, you are one of, if not the strongest people I know." You carefully avoid the fact that, technically speaking, you know perhaps five people, seven if you include Oriko and Kirika. "But even the strongest people need help, sometimes, and that's no shame. Here's where your friends step in, Homura: I believe you can do it, and I want to help. I want everyone to make it through this, Homura, because you all deserve better." You hold out your hand to her with a smile, mindful of the short distance between the two of you- her arm is rather shorter than yours.

She hesitates, the hand not on your shoulder making a half aborted move. Then, seemingly steeling herself, she puts her hand in yours, and you close your hand around hers, clasping it firmly. Her hand is a bit cooler than yours is, you note as she releases your shoulder and steps back. "Thank you," she says quietly.
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Firnagzen said:
You smile at her, still staring up at you. "So yes, Homura. You absolutely are human. In my eyes, in Madoka's eyes. And you do deserve better. Nothing you've done, or been through, means that you don't deserve to be happy, or-" your speech hitches a moment. Dare you, dare you not? "-be with Madoka. And there, we -and I do mean we, Homura- can find a way to keep her from contracting."

A sharp intake of breath from Homura, and her eyes widen a little. A hit, then, some reaction, at least.

You hold out your hand to her with a smile, echoing your earlier motion. "I meant what I said earlier, and I mean what I say now. I wouldn't say it if I didn't believe. You've trusted me this far. Will you trust me again, Homura?"

A long silence as the two of you maintain the tableau - you, standing in front of her, holding out your hand, Homura, still crouching. Around your feet, Oriko's blood has pooled and coagulated into a gummy, dark layer you're glad you can't really smell, thanks to the timestop.

She shies back from your hand, swaying back in place while watching you warily, and you frown. She can't be that resistant to the idea, can she?
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With this:
Firnagzen said:
"I kept trying," Homura continues, as if Mami hadn't spoken. Her gaze is fixed on her hands, unseeing. "I... I just..." Her shoulders hitch, as if she's trying to stifle a sob. "Madoka..."

"Shh," Mami whispers, hand moving to rub Homura's back in slow, soothing circles. You squeeze Homura gently, a reminder of your presence here, a reminder of everything different, and you check her Soul Gem. You'll need to cleanse it later. "It's alright, Homura. It's alright."

"I've failed," Homura whispers. "Over and over again."

"And you got back up every single time, Homura," you murmur quietly. "I don't know anyone who could have kept going like you have, over and over again. You're still fighting, and it's brought us here. We can win. All of us together."

Homura doesn't say anything. Mami's eyes, in turn, flick up to meet yours, and you incline your head slightly to the side and shake it slightly. Give Homura time to pull herself together, because she is strong. She doesn't need to be coddled, she just needs friends who believe in her.

"I haven't had-" Homura swallows. "I haven't had friends for a long time. I... I haven't been able to, to talk about this."

"I'm so sorry," Mami whispers. You can see the sympathy written in the set of her expression, the softness around her eyes and etched into the pull of her lips. Empathy from someone who understands the isolation, the pain of being surrounded by people and yet so very alone.

"And yes, Homura, we are your friends," you say.

"That's not what I meant," Homura rasps quietly, voice thick. "I haven't been able to convince anyone. Not for a long time. You die. Sayaka dies. No one's strong enough to face Walpurgisnacht. It..." Homura laughs once, sharp and bitter. "It's an unbelievable story. Only... only Madoka ever believed me. And I don't want her to know. She needs to stay away from all this."

"Sabrina believed you too," Mami supplies quietly.
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Firnagzen said:
"Thank you," Homura whispers into the silence. It's almost a sob. "Thank you."

"Thank you for trusting me with this, Homura," Mami says in response. You can feel her drawing a little closer to Mami, and you tighten your hug too so that Homura is firmly trapped between the both of you.

"I never wanted to be your enemy," Homura says. "You were my teacher."
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We got doubt, reluctance and hesitance. And then backing away and got handed a water bottle when we tried the same thing again to convince her to heal Oriko.

Meanwhile, Mami got (almost) crying and a hug... and what was said during that conversation made it clear Sabrina was basically an afterthought in Homura's mind when it came to people in the know who personally/emotionally matter, with our name brought up only when Mami mentioned us.
 
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TL: DR, small efforts are adding up, we likely could interrupt her self-destruction at this point in the friendship just by asking if we want to shock her, and the fix for her problems will be years in the making. Tell us one more step, one that doesn't shoot the ball at the goal yet. A "replacement" mission would be good, maybe a series of them, convince me.


Sabrina has been climbing uphill to become trusted, that's true. Our progress is nothing short of heroic, to read it in context with the examples you are bringing out. No matter how effective, compliant, intimate or benevolent we may be, a person as locked down as Homura was at the start of our relationship might not open up literally for years. That is the configuration of someone living on willpower, in defiance of daily surroundings that are corroding them.

Her issues are complex, because they are reflexive as well as external. Homura also suspended her formation of identity for all those years, and substituted "mission" for "I am me, this is what I want." She went down a path that kept her alive, but not well. We now meet fragmented adult and child, both abused, combined in one girl. Sabrina has given her a way to start de-tangling portions of herself. Homura has already granted perhaps the greatest intimacy she can to us. The time Sabrina is spending on healing actions in Timestop comes down to that meaning for me.

I think that is a reasonable "sparknote" summary?

I wanted to summarize. Because all her irrationalities (lack of self-care, self-hatred, fixation, etc.) can be seen and experienced by us as forms of "negative cognitive bias" "distorted thinking" and "extreme thinking."

How does another person help someone with an "extreme thinking" problem? Presenting correct Non-Extreme thinking, and helping with the errors that the next bout of extreme thinking will cause. Fighting "fire with fire" is less certain, and generally harmful. Positive reinforcement is the deal-io.

Mami got a deeper reaction than the other example, but is that even important? That big reaction of Catharsis is not the only way to help someone train to overcome their bad thinking. Sabrina is actually getting more than her expected amount of trust and influence, if you count it using something like the day calendar.

Would you consider that rate of progress (till Homura showed us her vulnerability) comparable to any relationships in your own experience? How long do you think it should take? To further that gap, the girls you are comparing to Sabrina's relationship with Homura have a significant amount of overlapping time with her. Even if it is "phantoms," they have entrenched relationships, and we are the new girl. They had been in battle with her for years, not that it counts for anyone else, but Homura's memories are fully linear.

Thus, I don't think "getting faster results" is a goal to aim for. We are ALREADY getting fast results. With fair workmanship, mind you. Giving the person a "next step" that won't backfire on them is important, too. The only improvement we could make is the addition of a professional to her environment. Splitting out some for the therapist and some for the supportive friends is the best way, shy of a cunning Wish. But that would be sacrificing some other girl, to replace labor we could have done ourselves. Life has value, and the effort is not work, when we love what we are doing.

Roleplaying as her friend, I think your idea of "Finding her the right mission" is valid. The idea of "Pledging with her" strictly to conflict with her existing thinking is a risky and more extreme plan, so not as interesting. Let me challenge you to invent a series of candidates for "the best mission to promote?"
My criteria:

Must be suitable for Homura; though she is not supposed to finish it alone, that would have to be somewhat possible. At current, "owning" a goal in Homura's POV is very much a Batman sort of thing.

Must have progress steps she can react to, and gain morale from; level grinding for ten years is bad for morale! No more of that.

Must have value - UTILITY - to her right now

Must have a time scale that extends far into the future, for increased value.

I would rate "Homura works on reversing contracts" to be every bit the match for her that de-Witching is. It isn't Her Story, unless using Timestop (or military abilities) is a critical step in that process. This isn't a match for who she is, nor who she could grow into. It is another geek-wizard-angel task, for a whole team. If I were to hazard a guess, Homura can mastermind things that have "moving parts" she can understand. (Clockwork much?) As much as Sayaka has interest in civics, Homura has capacity in this she could unlock. Madoka might be the bridge to Administrator!Homura, if we wind up having to manually re-organize Tokyo. Yuki wants to build-out her network worldwide? Sabrina is an excellent "forklift operator." Logisitics is way more demanding than "drop off the stuff," however. If we were to give Homura the reason and tools to take over, she would show us how to Take Over the World for Yuki better, with refinement. As such, I can demonstrate the possible nature of my proposal to you? But, I can't be you. Have at it.
 
Jonen C said:
The waveforms will either cancel out and you get nothing, merge and make a stronger anti magic wave, or interfere with each other to make magic waves.
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"In a hard magic system, like Dragon Ball Z"
:: eyeroll ::
The characters get into a beam fight. Battle of wills?

OR, in a hard magic system, most commonly Both get hit? Magic as raw power is "a single concept." Magical effect are many, personal concepts. What do the concepts imply? Think 4D storage, everyone has her own. Since neither beam is "intended" to interfere with ANOTHER form of anti-magic, it might just pass through to the target. A beam of "fire" or "lasers" or "insert stauts effect here" would be cancelled, and consume resources appropriately, because that would be something the average Wish would intend it to do.
 
HeroCycle said:
Battle of wills?
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No, no, result of interaction depends on size (energy content), frequency (size of waveform) and angle when merging.

Waves that match precisely cancel out.
Waves that don't clash and may create stronger or weaker waves depending.
Sometimes they come in at odds and interfere with each other to create unpredictable effects, like removing the magic removal function of each other leaving the magic powering the waves intact and uncontrolled.

Replicable and predictable - if chaotic on a level that surpasses fluid dynamics.

Edit: Thaumohydrodynamics, the study of the behavior of magic in an n-dimensional space. A butterfly flaps its wings and rabbit is pulled through a wormhole out of a hat.
 
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Godwinson said:
Was skimming through the past few pages and noticed this--

You misformed your vote -- curly bracket instead of square bracket.
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@Godwinson since you're skimming, I'd like to bring this to your attention:

Sentient Tree said:
[X] Godwinson


Would it be possible to add that we ask Homura for some bullets to have Kirika enchant? They'll be extremely useful if the Iowa situation devolves into a fight.
Maybe something like:
[] From Homura: borrow bullets for Kirika to enchant.


Reasoning:
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Torgamous said:
Don't we already have our own gun?
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We do, in fact. And I certainly want those bullets enchanted as well, in case we have to use it. However, I'm assuming that we have a limited number of bullets for our gun. Using grief we could fire massive amounts of antimagic bullets that put a gatling gun to shame, so the real limiting factor is how many bullets Kirika can enchant, which I assume is more bullets than we have for our gun. I want to give her enough bullets that anytime she feels like enchanting, she has more than enough bullets to keep enchanting.

Godwinson said:
I noticed it, I don't think it's a terribly useful idea to bring forward right now. Quite the contrary, in fact.
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Could you explain? Do you think that we have more than enough firepower to deal with Iowa already then?
 
@Godwinson
One thing to consider with your vote isn't just how much we can find out about Iowa from the Arizona group and #milesgloriosus but also how much #nyatokanyaru and Kagoshima can tell us.

We've gotten hints that they take efforts to keep themselves well informed, so there's a decent chance they might know something.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Could you explain? Do you think that we have more than enough firepower to deal with Iowa already then?
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You didn't ask for it, but my opinion is that it's a good idea that should be included in a later vote with related items. The current vote is primarily about social and op sec; amassing ammo doesn't fit in that. We can ask Homs to supply us before our next visit to the Kure's, or at least after school when we're not running late for a meeting. We should still have time to fit that in today after school or tomorrow while we're shopping.

At least, we should. If I'm reading the planner right.
 
Rickshaw said:
You didn't ask for it, but my opinion is that it's a good idea that should be included in a later vote with related items. The current vote is primarily about social and op sec; amassing ammo doesn't fit in that. We can ask Homs to supply us before our next visit to the Kure's, or at least after school when we're not running late for a meeting. We should still have time to fit that in today after school or tomorrow while we're shopping.

At least, we should. If I'm reading the planner right.
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That would certainly be nice if we can do that. Mostly I'm afraid of it not getting done at all (or maybe delaying long enough that Kirika doesn't have time to enchant much ammunition), rather than just not asking Homura for bullets in this update. More worried that the plan makers don't want to do it at all, rather than that they want to wait until a better time to ask, if that makes sense. It's my impression that Iowa is going to very difficult if we get into a direct fight with them, and this kind of thing that increases our base combat ability would be very helpful for keeping/gaining the upper hand in such a fight, especially if we don't want to cause fatalities.

Speaking of improving base combat ability, we should also make sure that Homura gets some of those bullets to use herself. She's pretty practical, so I doubt she'll decline just because it's from the Kures. It might even make her feel a bit better about them, seeing as they're then directly contributing to keeping Madoka safe.
 
Sentient Tree said:
Speaking of improving base combat ability, we should also make sure that Homura gets some of those bullets to use herself. She's pretty practical, so I doubt she'll decline just because it's from the Kures. It might even make her feel a bit better about them, seeing as they're then directly contributing to keeping Madoka safe.
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Maybe get Sayaka to do that? She's more trusted, has clones to do it for her(insert Naruto joke here), and we get more "Sayaka is helpful wat" from Homura.

Edit: spelling
 
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Sentient Tree said:
Using grief we could fire massive amounts of antimagic bullets that put a gatling gun to shame
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We can use Grief throw anything fast enough to kill someone, so if we're getting enchantments in bulk it'd probably be better to get them in a form that also has other uses. Also, I like BlueTwinkleToes' suggestion, because it feels like every time we talk to Kirika we're asking her to enchant something or other.
 
{} Are we going to detour and pick up our documents, or is there interest in going out for them later?

[] When talking to #nyantokanyaru girls, perhaps including the option to meet them IN Tokyo is better? Did they even know they COULD go to Tokyo since contracting? Both "neutral site" and incentive travel. Magical Girls should go on adventures! (that don't get them killed.)

Sentient Tree said:
That would certainly be nice if we can do that. Mostly I'm afraid of it not getting done at all (or maybe delaying long enough that Kirika doesn't have time to enchant much ammunition), rather than just not asking Homura for bullets in this update. More worried that the plan makers don't want to do it at all, rather than that they want to wait until a better time to ask, if that makes sense. It's my impression that Iowa is going to very difficult if we get into a direct fight with them, and this kind of thing that increases our base combat ability would be very helpful for keeping/gaining the upper hand in such a fight, especially if we don't want to cause fatalities.

Speaking of improving base combat ability, we should also make sure that Homura gets some of those bullets to use herself. She's pretty practical, so I doubt she'll decline just because it's from the Kures. It might even make her feel a bit better about them, seeing as they're then directly contributing to keeping Madoka safe.
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Straight outta Chicago.
Dresden School, First Form.

So, would we be able to convince all our allies to have a similar backup ploy, i.e. aggressive and functional response to anti-magic? Much as Yuki decided to experiment with revising her capture policy, good preparations are worth the effort.
 
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