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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Yeah, I like this one more
Filler update, please?

[X] Be polite, but roll with the casual atmosphere and just be your normal friendly self. Besides you have a bird on your shoulder - formality has its limits.
-[X] Express that you're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
-[X] Dork out
-[x] turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
-[x] ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
-[x] Start gushing if Mami comes up
 
SaltyWaffles said:
Again, why? None of the blame is ours. We showed far more restraint than any other magical girl could have shown while still winning that fight, and it was entirely in self-defense from unprovoked aggression.
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That wasn't even the active vote: I was voting for Phoenixian's edit.

[X] Clear the air:
-[X] You'll be working together, so you need to wrinkle out any issues.
-[X] You and Yuki spoke about them striving to be better - which is all you can ask for - but you also have your own striving to do as well; Some of the blame *is* yours and you do think about what you could have done better.
-[X] You don't know them personally enough yet to offer something specific but you'll do what's needed to settle any lingering grievances.
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And, well - they only started doing mass property damage after we gemmed some of them. At that point in time, we did not yet have an established reputation for mercy - in large part, that incident is what gave us that reputation.

I'm not going to apologize for fighting them, but our approach at the time - sudden gem ganks - must have scared them shitless given the usual reputation grief controllers have. They may well have thought that fighting at full power (even in the middle of a city) was their only chance to avoid never seeing their friends again - or for that matter, that we'd straight up killed them.

When I say some of the blame is ours, I'm thinking of not having made the condition (still alive) of their friends more clear, and not communicating well enough. With more clear communications, they likely wouldn't have resorted to as drastic measures.

Make no mistake - the vast majority of the blame was theirs. But there were things we could have done better - and in large part, in future altercations, we have done better because of our experiences there.

In general, I feel acknowledging their experiences and what may have driven them to act the way they did is more conducive to a long term partnership than simply dumping all the blame on them.
 
Redshirt Army said:
That wasn't even the active vote: I was voting for Phoenixian's edit.



And, well - they only started doing mass property damage after we gemmed some of them. At that point in time, we did not yet have an established reputation for mercy - in large part, that incident is what gave us that reputation.

I'm not going to apologize for fighting them, but our approach at the time - sudden gem ganks - must have scared them shitless given the usual reputation grief controllers have. They may well have thought that fighting at full power (even in the middle of a city) was their only chance to avoid never seeing their friends again - or for that matter, that we'd straight up killed them.

When I say some of the blame is ours, I'm thinking of not having made the condition (still alive) of their friends more clear, and not communicating well enough. With more clear communications, they likely wouldn't have resorted to as drastic measures.

Make no mistake - the vast majority of the blame was theirs. But there were things we could have done better - and in large part, in future altercations, we have done better because of our experiences there.

In general, I feel acknowledging their experiences and what may have driven them to act the way they did is more conducive to a long term partnership than simply dumping all the blame on them.
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The problem is that gemming is the most humane and merciful way to win in combat against magical girls. The alternative is hurting them so badly that even their magically enhanced bodies literally can't function anymore beyond just staying alive. See Oriko nearly being decapitated by Homura (Kirika basically gave up by that point, seeing as Oriko was apparently dead and she herself couldn't really move effectively). Remember how, in the Sendai fight before we arrived, one of the Sendai girls had her neck broken, and she still continued to fight? Yeah.

Simply put, there was no expectation--nor should there have been--that they were not fighting to the death. Which makes apologizing for maiming them stupid, really. It's like apologizing for shooting enemy troops in a war--that's what you're supposed to do, and what everyone expects you to do.

If the University Group were here, in this room, us apologizing for hurting them badly enough to knock them out of commission would alarm and upset the UG, because it would look like we're apologizing to their aggressors for doing what was necessary to stop them.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
I'm not going to apologize for fighting them, but our approach at the time - sudden gem ganks - must have scared them shitless given the usual reputation grief controllers have. They may well have thought that fighting at full power (even in the middle of a city) was their only chance to avoid never seeing their friends again - or for that matter, that we'd straight up killed them.

When I say some of the blame is ours, I'm thinking of not having made the condition (still alive) of their friends more clear, and not communicating well enough. With more clear communications, they likely wouldn't have resorted to as drastic measures.
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That's...
I'm not actually
Just
Well

Redshirt Army.
See, when we were fighting them, yes, they probably went berserk, because we started Gem-grabbing them

Given the reputation Grief controllers are surrounded with, that almost certainly made them to draw assumptions about what we intended to do with Soul Gems after the fight

My question is: how could we have convinced them that no, we are totally not going to use their friends' Gems as Grief dumpsters and it's totally okay to surrender?

Just walk me through this one, please
We didn't have any reputation, good or bad, aside from being a Grief controller
We are not especially eloquent or convincing
We left our Social worker mostly 'armless in her mansion

How? Maybe that's a valid question, you know
Asking them, if we had told them to surrender and that we would not harm them and even sillier, had they believed us, would they have stopped fighting?
Spoiler, probably not, since they got paid to fight, you know
 
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Raiseth said:
My question is: how could we have convinced them that no, we are totally not going to use their friends' Gems as Grief dumpsters and it's totally okay to surrender?
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Does it matter?

The fact is that them thinking we were like other grief controllers is almost certainly a contributing factor to their overreaction, and thus to the death of civilians.

I'm not asking Sabrina to say that intervening to help the Univiersity Girls was a mistake, I'm asking her to show some basic sympathy and understanding for why the Fukushima girls acted the way they did.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Does it matter?

The fact is that them thinking we were like other grief controllers is almost certainly a contributing factor to their overreaction, and thus to the death of civilians.

I'm not asking Sabrina to say that intervening to help the Univiersity Girls was a mistake, I'm asking her to show some basic sympathy and understanding for why the Fukushima girls acted the way they did.
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Sorry, but I can't get behind this. The necessity of that action was regretful, but the action itself wasn't.

Unless there is a lesson in how it happened that would clearly show us what we could have done better, I don't see any benefit in bringing it up whatsoever.

I feel that sympathy will be wasteful and insulting, though I admit that the girls themselves probably won't see it that way, at least most of them, so it's all me.
 
All else aside, DB's vote has some serious structural issues.

We have a limited amount of time to talk to the Fukushima group, and a ton of topics to get through. Now is absolutely not the time for a "filler update".

I can offer a compromise vote?

[X] Clear the air:
-[X] You're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
-[X] You've talked to Yuki about them trying to be better, and that's all you can ask.
-[X] What are *their* concerns?
--[X] Especially in Tokyo, it'll be important to present a united front.

[X] Relax:
-[X] With a bird on your shoulder, there are limits to formality.
-[X] Yuki claimed Shinobu *wasn't* a mountain spirit, but looking at her that was clearly a lie. :V
-[X] Gush if Mami comes up.

[X] Your Upcoming Schedule:
-[X] Do they know anything about the Murasaki Shrine Maidens? You've heard good things from Nadia and wanted to fit them in on Saturday.
-[X] You're planning Tokyo for an afternoon early next week. You'll keep them in the loop once it's confirmed.
[X] Break to voting to raise other topics (Soujus, Iowa, etc.).
 
Mmm
That
I can get behind
[X] Redshirt Army
-[Q] Gush over Mumi even if she doesn't come up
 
[X] Kaizuki

Do votes for a person update when said person changes their plan? Or is the tally system only counting the plan at the time of the vote?

EDIT: vote change
 
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Jacob Rickshaw said:
[X] Redshirt Army

Do votes for a person update when said person changes their plan? Or is the tally system only counting the plan at the time of the vote?
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Votes automatically update to the newest vote.

To avoid that, and pin your vote to the current version of a user's vote, you can use a carat. Like this:

[ ]^Example Username
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Aranfan on Aug 22, 2019 at 7:42 PM, finished with 107 posts and 17 votes.
  • [X] Be polite, but roll with the casual atmosphere and just be your normal friendly self. Besides you have a bird on your shoulder - formality has its limits.
    -[X] Express that you're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
    -[X] Dork out
    -[x] turn to Yuki while pointing at shinobu, "she is clearly an incarnate mountain but you said she wasn't."
    -[x] ask Ramiel if you can call her Ramiel, don't if she seems uncomfortable with it.
    -[x] Start gushing if Mami comes up
    [X] Clear the air:
    -[X] You'll be working together, so you need to wrinkle out any issues.
    -[X] You and Yuki spoke about them striving to be better - which is all you can ask for - but you also have your own striving to do as well; Some of the blame *is* yours and you do think about what you could have done better.
    -[X] You don't know them personally enough yet to offer something specific but you'll do what's needed to settle any lingering grievances.
    -[X] With that in mind, what are *their* concerns?
    --[X] Especially in Tokyo, it'll be important to present a united front.
    [X] Shinobu:
    -[X] Yuki claimed Shinobu *wasn't* a mountain spirit, but looking at her that was clearly a lie. :V
    [X] Your Upcoming Schedule:
    -[X] Do they know anything about the Murasaki Shrine Maidens? You've heard good things from Nadia and wanted to fit them in on Saturday.
    -[X] You're planning Tokyo for an afternoon early next week. You'll keep them in the loop once it's confirmed.
    [X] Break to voting to raise other topics (Soujus, Iowa, etc.).
    [X] Clear the air:
    -[X] You're glad none of them seem worse for wear from when you fought.
    -[X] You've talked to Yuki about them trying to be better, and that's all you can ask.
    -[X] What are *their* concerns?
    --[X] Especially in Tokyo, it'll be important to present a united front.
    [X] Relax:
    -[X] With a bird on your shoulder, there are limits to formality.
    -[X] Yuki claimed Shinobu *wasn't* a mountain spirit, but looking at her that was clearly a lie. :V
    -[X] Gush if Mami comes up.
    [X] Your Upcoming Schedule:
    -[X] Do they know anything about the Murasaki Shrine Maidens? You've heard good things from Nadia and wanted to fit them in on Saturday.
    -[X] You're planning Tokyo for an afternoon early next week. You'll keep them in the loop once it's confirmed.
    [X] Break to voting to raise other topics (Soujus, Iowa, etc.).
    [X] With Yuki's team:
    -[X] Clear the air. You'll be working together, so you need to wrinkle out any potential issues.
    --[X] Especially in Tokyo, it'd be good to present a relatively united front.
    --[X] You're... unhappy with the amount of collateral they caused in Sendai, but if they were desperate to recover their friends, some of the blame *is* yours.
    ---[X] Yuki has said that their team will strive to be better in the future, and that's all you can really ask for - too many magical girls have had to hurt people to survive for you to be judgemental about past actions.
    [X] With Yuki's team:
    [X] Polite, relatable, regular Sabrina attitude. Bird is the word!
    -[X] Clear the air. You'll be working together, so you need to wrinkle out any potential issues.
    --[X] Especially in Tokyo, it'd be good to present a relatively united front.
    --[X] You're... unhappy with the amount of collateral they caused in Sendai, but if they were desperate to recover their friends, some of the blame *is* yours.
    ---[X] Yuki has said that their team will strive to be better in the future, and that's all you can really ask for - too many magical girls have had to hurt people to survive for you to be judgmental about past actions.
    ---[X] We too wish to be better than what we did to them.
    ---[X] As much as we things worse on that day, we apologize.
    -[X] Ask about their playful callsigns.
    -[X] Safely ham it up.
    -[X] Share an activity
    --[X] Speed chess, cards, spin the bottle, jam session - something that allows conversation.
    -[X] Ask each girl about their feelings on working together with us, and what important things each is working towards.
    -[X] Talk about getting together for a mixer / party.
    -[X] Mami is awesome.
    -[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.
    -[X] Privacy. Tell us how best to strike Iowa, and keep our town safe.
    -[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.
    -[X] Soujo-tachi are coming. Advise us on them, or their type.
    --[X] Talented stalker, heavy hitter
    --[X] We want to control the fight, even if they want collateral damage.
    --[X] We see a possibility to save victims of Soujo and Soujo, that would require a scaled up effort.
    --[X] Additional cooperating people have to be accommodated.
    ---[X] Discuss theory of Workshop / Hospital / mundane interface location.
    -[X] Healing practice for Anri next week? Find us a severe asthma victim, traumatic blindness, burn scars, other sorts of visible quick improvement opportunities.
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Someone who isn't one of the fat-cat PMMM roleplayers
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OY! WHO DO YOU THINK YOU ARE REDSHIRT!? "FAT"!?!?!

SaltyWaffles said:
The problem is that gemming is the most humane and merciful way to win in combat against magical girls. The alternative is hurting them so badly that even their magically enhanced bodies literally can't function anymore beyond just staying alive. See Oriko nearly being decapitated by Homura (Kirika basically gave up by that point, seeing as Oriko was apparently dead and she herself couldn't really move effectively). Remember how, in the Sendai fight before we arrived, one of the Sendai girls had her neck broken, and she still continued to fight? Yeah.

Simply put, there was no expectation--nor should there have been--that they were not fighting to the death. Which makes apologizing for maiming them stupid, really. It's like apologizing for shooting enemy troops in a war--that's what you're supposed to do, and what everyone expects you to do.

If the University Group were here, in this room, us apologizing for hurting them badly enough to knock them out of commission would alarm and upset the UG, because it would look like we're apologizing to their aggressors for doing what was necessary to stop them.
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Salty... I do not EVEN.

I get it: you're up in arms because apologizing for this isn't congruent with the way things are.

But...

When have we ever, ever, ever WANTED to act in CONGRUENCE with the EXISTING STATE OF AFFAIRS!?!?

Yeah, no, there WASN'T an expectation that we weren't fighting to the death. Are you saying we should be doing ANYTHING to even remotely LEGITIMIZE that state of affairs?

...

Be the change you want to see in the world. If that change is not having to fight people to the death, don't reason that fighting people to the death is the way things are. That's not what this quest IS.

...

And before I post this without addressing your overall point: who decided that combat against other magical girls was something you "win"? Who decided that you could "win" fighting a hurt, teenage child soldier?

There's no *winning* that. You win that by resolving the problem without fighting in the first place.
 
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Redshirt Army said:
And, well - they only started doing mass property damage after we gemmed some of them. At that point in time, we did not yet have an established reputation for mercy - in large part, that incident is what gave us that reputation.

I'm not going to apologize for fighting them, but our approach at the time - sudden gem ganks - must have scared them shitless given the usual reputation grief controllers have. They may well have thought that fighting at full power (even in the middle of a city) was their only chance to avoid never seeing their friends again - or for that matter, that we'd straight up killed them.

When I say some of the blame is ours, I'm thinking of not having made the condition (still alive) of their friends more clear, and not communicating well enough. With more clear communications, they likely wouldn't have resorted to as drastic measures.

Make no mistake - the vast majority of the blame was theirs. But there were things we could have done better - and in large part, in future altercations, we have done better because of our experiences there.

In general, I feel acknowledging their experiences and what may have driven them to act the way they did is more conducive to a long term partnership than simply dumping all the blame on them.
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Kaizuki said:
Salty... I do not EVEN.

I get it: you're up in arms because apologizing for this isn't congruent with the way things are.

But...

When have we ever, ever, ever WANTED to act in CONGRUENCE with the EXISTING STATE OF AFFAIRS!?!?

Yeah, no, there WASN'T an expectation that we weren't fighting to the death. Are you saying we should be doing ANYTHING to even remotely LEGITIMIZE that state of affairs?

...

Be the change you want to see in the world. If that change is not having to fight people to the death, don't reason that fighting people to the death is the way things are. That's not what this quest IS.

...

And before I post this without addressing your overall point: who decided that combat against other magical girls was something you "win"? Who decided that you could "win" fighting a hurt, teenage child soldier?

There's no *winning* that. You win that by resolving the problem without fighting in the first place.
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These are basically my thoughts on the matter too:

Just because we had the relative moral high ground in the Sendai altercation doesn't meant we couldn't have done better by our own standards. As someone who's out to change the world, we can and should hold ourself to a much higher standard than already exists, not simple settle for being best of the bunch. Call it leading by example, call it the only actions we can control are our own, same end result either way.

As to specifics in this case, if gemming or knocking people out is necessary, we can inform them and their allies that they'll be restored no matter how the fight ends. If it isn't necessary to hold someone, then we usually have enough grief on hand to cage a whole body, not just their gem. Not to mention everything we've learned about our power since then.

Will such measures always work? Maybe not, but I think things like laying out our own rules of engagement is a case where the mere attempt being made counts for a hell of a lot.

As far as my vote goes, I've tried to acknowledge that there is internal debate here, but with this kind of thing It's kind of all or nothing. This isn't the kind of statement where one can talk too much about the other side's faults or defend your actions too much, or it becomes kinda artificial. (The old "I apologize but," clause and all that.)
 
Attempting to address it though would completely ruin the current casual tone of the meeting and sour a chance to genuinely connect with them in a friendly setting.

A better -or at least more effective- way to go about it would be to apologise for not giving a message of non-lethality during the fight just before leaving, after having had that humanizing moment in a casual setting. A lamentation that we could have done better while still acknowledging that that particular instance of violence was unavoidable, and then further expressing that we don't like that it was unavoidable, that talking things out would not have been possible because you just don't do that. Express hope that we can eventually reach the point where mid-conflict truces can be seen as safe enough by conflicting magical girls to seriously consider without expecting a trap or fearing for their lives.

Leaving off on a heavy reflective note on our way out after having connected with them would work well, I think.
 
Rule 3: Calling people you disagree with 'toddlers' is not appropriate at the best of times, let alone in this thread specifically.
God your all like toddlers who won't apologize cause your convinced your right
Was what we did justified? Yes
Did it result in deaths of civilians? Yes
Could we have done better? I dunno
Should we apologize even if we were in the right? Absolutely

Heres the thing, what do we lose if we apologize, vs if we dont
 
Right, you know what, in the day or two since I was last in here my brain has cleaned up significantly. I'm not happy with the existing votes, and I'm done with it.

Firnagzen said:
"You scared the everliving shit out of them," she says, leading the way down the stairs. "And you hurt them. But these things happen when you're on the opposite sides of a conflict. That said, if you wish to meet them, we all live here. Moe and Atsuko are around today, though Sasami and Shinobu are out. I don't believe you've met the latter?"
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Firnagzen said:
"They've recovered perfectly well," Yuki says, tone neutral. "We are magical girls, and we've all taken worse. Though perhaps not as comprehensively. Your chastisement... I watched the news. [She stops walking]. I think we all acknowledge that your point was well made."
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[X] On Monday, 3/28, you woke up in an alley and made a contract.
-[X] Six days later you were in Sendai.
--[X] You were underprepared, unexperienced, and unknown. You'd barely grasped your own powers, hadn't gotten things really figured out with your own team, and you were trying to negotiate with an established warlord with a huge chip on her shoulder.
---[X] You don't regret going to Sendai, but you do regret the mistakes you made, and chief among those was your failure to reach out to everyone involved. You don't know what might have transpired differently if you'd spoken with [Fukushima] before the events of that night, but in not contacting them you failed to pursue a major route by which violence and harm might have been avoided. For that, you apologize.
-[X] Let that go where it may. Everybody here agrees that Fukushima's showing in Sendai was unacceptable, but these girls are quite clearly capable of being decent human beings. Yuki told you that you scared the quote everliving shit close quote out of them. There is every chance that if you'd even only made the impression on them in advance that you weren't terribly hostile, things could have gone differently. Be the Sabrina that Councilor Stesk knows you can be.
[X] Deal with administrative things next vote.
 
[X] Kaizuki

I really like Kai's vote. Would we still have fought Fukushima if we contacted them beforehand? Almost certainly - they'd be pretty shitty mercenaries if they backed down in the face of some pretty words, and they'd been hired to oppose us.

But they may not have been so desperate if we'd made a better impression, and they didn't believe that the friends we disabled would be tortured or worse - and that might have saved civilian lives.

Looking back over that period in the quest, there was a sizable gap between when we learned about Fukushima and their being hired, and when we actually fought. Several people raised the idea of contacting Fukushima too, but it never happened before we came to blows.

The only real changes I'd make are here:

Kaizuki said:
You don't know what might have transpired differently if you'd spoken with [Fukushima] before the events of that night
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We only learned of Fukushima's existence during "the events of that night". It'd be more fair to say "you don't know what might have transpired differently if you'd spoken with Fukushima before you came to blows".

Kaizuki said:
major route by which violence and harm might have been avoided.
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This makes it sound like we could have talked them down entirely, which, while it would have been nice, was always extremely unlikely. Mercenaries have a reputation to keep. More fair would be "violence and harm could have been minimized", which gets closer to the heart of the matter.
 
Aranfan said:
Being startfleet and the united federation of planets is always a worthy endeavor.

I will not be changing my vote, but only because I think now is the time to socialize and make friends, not to get into heavy topics. I think it would be a great end to the meeting tho.
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Yeah I really like the line about "Yuki lied, shinobu is clearly a mountain spirit" for example. I definitely want to do some socializing here, but... this probably comes first IMO. I realize that it's a tone setter as opposed to doing some light socializing first, but...
 
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