Two things:

First of all, while I don't mind the theme music discussion, it'd be polite to link to videos as links instead of embedding for those on mobile and so on.

Second of all, more votes, please!

(Third of all, I've always liked In My Spirit, Carnage, and Sin From Genesis as songs for hypothetical situations where Sabrina gets well and truly pissed off. The problem with them is that none of them quite suit - they convey the power and unstoppability well, they're not fast enough for magical girl combat. Plus, with Steps to Success as Sabrina's 'main theme', they don't exactly follow the same vein. Wrong instruments and style.)
 
MOOORE VOOOTES

HELP CAT BOOLI UPDATES OUT OF FIRN

(for a given definition of booli. votes may not actually help with booli-ing. more restrictions may apply. no firns are actually bullied in the course of booli-ing firn.)
 
MOOORE VOOOTES

HELP CAT BOOLI UPDATES OUT OF FIRN

(for a given definition of booli. votes may not actually help with booli-ing. more restrictions may apply. no firns are actually bullied in the course of booli-ing firn.)
If we spar with the plant controller, does it count as bullying ferns?

Also, re: Airi and dewitching: Did we clear Arzt Kochen? Given what little we know/headway we've achieved, that seems like something that logically goes before Airi tries putting anything back in it, which means that if we haven't, we should explain how the 'grief' in 'grief seed' is literal, and how removing it from the seed seems to help it, before we get into broader plans to reverse the process.
 
Also, re: Airi and dewitching: Did we clear Arzt Kochen? Given what little we know/headway we've achieved, that seems like something that logically goes before Airi tries putting anything back in it, which means that if we haven't, we should explain how the 'grief' in 'grief seed' is literal, and how removing it from the seed seems to help it, before we get into broader plans to reverse the process.

iirc, we cleared it and gave her to Anri
Who is still being an edgy, angsty teenager with urgent need for professional therapy
 
So I had a thought in response to the conversation last night: What would Sabrina's associated Tarot card be, and how would it represent her, and also Dedolere?

It might be argued that our nature whatever we were dewitched from, but I think that wouldn't be the case: Sabrina herself has a very different center than Walpurgis or UGK likely does. And so I would expect the Dedolere of Sabrina is as different from the Stage Constructing Witch or Witch of Despair as Homulilly the Nutcracker Witch was from Homulilly the Witch of the Mortal World.

So here's my argument At the core of her, Sabrina is a creature of power and control. It was her wish, and it is part of her, for better or for worse. When we have aided others, it was often through simple power be it overwhelming force or simple grief control doing what nothing else before could. When and where we have threatened to harm or curse others, it was for the sake of control.

There is purpose to it of course. We made our wish to set things right. But in the end the way we chose to do so was power, and that's forever part of who Sabrina is.

And so for the card most associated with power, I will submit that Sabrina, and her incarnation of Dedolere, is the Magician. And with that association made, I think it can go much deeper.

As I'm not familiar with Tarot myself, using this site as my source. Simply looking at the symbolism of the card:

The Magician card is numbered One – the number of new beginnings and opportunities – and associates with the planet of Mercury.
Sabrina is something truly new: Never seen before.
He stands with one arm stretched upwards towards the Universe, and the other pointing down to the earth. His positioning represents his connection between the spiritual realms and the material realms.
If Madoka is the witch associated with heaven, and the one who could become a goddess, and the comet and Homura is the witch who represents the mortal world, and the survivor who lives on to use her strength another day, then it fits well that Sabrina, the impactor, unites both of her creators.

The Magician uses this relationship to create and manifest his goals in the physical realm. He is the conduit that converts energy into matter.
Sabrina turns grief, the energy of emotion, into manifest physical substance. She takes the spiritual and otherwordly and makes it material and of the mortal world.

The Magician's robe is white, symbolizing purity, and his cloak is red, representing worldly experience and knowledge.
Consider that Sabrina is pure, her soul tainted by neither grief nor lived experience. And yet, like the magician, she holds vast knowledge and learning. Little of import is secret from her. And this knowledge can also be tied back to the second quote: She has Heaven's knowledge brought to earth.

On the table in front of him are the four symbols of the Tarot suits – a cup, pentacle, sword and wand – each symbolising one of the four elements – water, earth, air and fire. It is also a sign that he has all the tools (and elements) he needs to manifest his intentions into being.
This I don't have much to say about symbolism in its base form.

Perhaps a card drawn specifically for Sabrina might instead the weapons and items of her friends: Mami's teacup for cups, Homura's shield and the design thereon for the pentacle, Sayaka's cutlass for sword, and either her own hammer for the wand or one of Oriko's balls as a scrying orb instead. To symbolize how not merely herself but also her friends are important to her achievements. But then perhaps someone with a better read on the meanings of those items would have a different answer.

Above his head is the infinity symbol, and around his waist is a snake biting its own tail – both of which signal that he has access to unlimited potential.
A somewhat different interpretation here than the site's: Certainly her potential is vast, but more important is that Sabrina is the infinite engine: given infinite time she holds the promise of unlimited energy sourced only from her own being, and like the ouroboros she feeds on herself and so requires only herself to survive.

And in the foreground is an array of foliage and flowers, symbolising the blossoming and fruition of his ideas and aspirations.
We are nothing if not ambitious, yes, and not unsuccessful in achieving those ambitions. More than that, however, we bring flourishing. Through the realization of our efforts others may rise and be made whole, be they inspired to action through our words, or more often given the power to act by simple virtue of our nature.

And on to card's meaning as a whole:

Upright the magician is manifestation, resourcefulness, power, and inspired action. Inverted it is deception and manipulation, poor planning, and untapped talents.

Manifestation here seems to mean "to make real and bring what is needed." Sabrina does both of these when she uses griefhax to create tools, but the latter half is true of even simple cleansing, granting others what they need to begin their works. Sabrina's resourcefulness meanwhile is that all other's trash is her treasure. The grief of magical girls and witches becomes hers, and she performs wondrous acts with it.

Inspired action here seems to mean careful consideration and inspiration before action, and is noted on other sites to be "willpower." This too fits with Sabrina in multiple ways. The most obvious is of course her griefhax again, and how it takes will and concentration to shape. Less immediate is her nature as a researcher; Through learning and consideration, like enchantment or practicing what her grief can do, she becomes capable of more than she was before.

Power, of course, is obvious: It is why the card was brought up in the first place. We not only hold a great deal of it, we also seek to increase it, through both our studies and our politics. (In the latter case, it's not something we do for its own sake, but nevertheless the more power we have the more people we can aid.)

And if we invert the card, I think we view at who Dedolere might be, via Sabrina's major flaws and limits.

And it's notable that two of these have brought us closer to witching out than anything else.

More commonly, Sabrina has brought herself grief through being the idiot-genius. The poor planner of great skill and power. It was in a questionable moment of sense that she accidentally linked herself up to a witch. Repeatedly. Among other incidents where simple lack of consideration and foresight brought her great trouble.

Thus I feel Dedolere would likely have the same drive as Sabrina, to help everyone, but go about it through poorly thought out or self-destructive ways. I think that's especially reasonable given how other witches try to carry out the goals of the people they were before but in destructive ways. (Homulilly trying to protect Madoka, Candeloro driven to invite and trap others by loneliness, Kriemhild Gretchen forcing people into her heaven to save everyone, Oktavia wanting to hear Kyousuke playing, etc.)

The other time is manipulation. Our threat to witch out Kirika is the moment of which we are least proud, and even threatening considering the act brought a great deal of grief to our soul gem, be that because of our inner turmoil in contemplating it, or because of some resonance with bringing a curse upon another instead cursing ourselves. Even so, manipulating others into doing what we want by threat or deception is part of us, is and it's something we have to watch out for constantly.

It wouldn't be so surprising if Dedolere took all that and made what we suppress into what she uses actively, though I'm not sure how that would manifest. (And as a side not here: we've tried talking to Dedolere, but I wonder if drawing our witch out for something like that requires thinking like her. How would we manipulate or force her to talk to us?)

Lastly is untapped talents, which feels like it can be read as untapped potential. And it is not so much a flaw, as part of our arc. Us and Dedolere both. We know so little about our power and have so very much we could do with it, so much so that our every glimpse into what we have not yet done reveals vast new horizons. And just as we could save the world so Dedolere could grow to destroy it.

So. Yeah.

I think the Magician is a fitting tarot card for Sabrina, and that was why.
 
I think the Magician is a fitting tarot card for Sabrina, and that was why.

I kinda want to repudiate that with a shitpost about the Fool being both the actual first arcana ( the zeroth, technically ), and the typical protagonist arcana representation, symbolizing beginnings and humanity, as well as the spanner in the works status of the character in question, but since Sayaka has that position covered, I've got nothing.
 
(And as a side not here: we've tried talking to Dedolere, but I wonder if drawing our witch out for something like that requires thinking like her. How would we manipulate or force her to talk to us?)

Off the top of my head: Griefhax something up? Sabrina imposing her will on Dedolere certainly seems Dedolere-ish, going by your interpretation. Hang on, I made a list of possible ideas a while back... There we go.

Okay, yes, but I still want to know, how do we talk to Dedolere? Spitballing a few ideas:

  • Griefhax something up
  • @The Phoenixian's idea of tracing The Feather via psychometery (Maybe Oriko's new clairivoyance would help with that?)
  • Take up Umika's (the book girl from the Saints) offer on looking into our past
  • If the theory on us being UKG is true: convince Homura to take us to one of the timelines where Madoka witched, and talk to regular KG. (Actually, if we're checking out failed timelines, we might want to check out what happened to the previous one) (It goes without saying that the convincing Homura bit is going to be nigh impossible)
  • Infuse magic directly into our Soul Gem, or have Mami do it
  • Get high on LSD; go on a vision quest
  • Try manipulating the "core" of our Soul Gem w/ our grief control
  • Do more experiments with Sayaka copying our power
  • Bring back Rionnnnnnna, social-fu her into helping us OR have Sayaka use Rhiohnah's (passive) powers on us
  • Something something enchantment
  • Pray to Madokami for answers
EDIT: Of course, half of these are hilariously idiotic, but my point is to get us thinking on how we act on this theory.
 
I kinda want to repudiate that with a shitpost about the Fool being both the actual first arcana ( the zeroth, technically ), and the typical protagonist arcana representation, symbolizing beginnings and humanity, as well as the spanner in the works status of the character in question, but since Sayaka has that position covered, I've got nothing.
Nah, the Fool arcana is Walprugisnacht. :V

This is poorly written compared to the Sabrina = Magician comparison, no incorporation of the card's symbolism, but here's a bit I cut from the post due to not fitting with what I wanted to say.

From Walpurgis file on the wiki, it says outright that "She symbolizes the fool who continuously spins in circles." And her nature kind of fits with the fool card, in both upright and inverted forms.

Upright it says that the Fool is a free spirit, spontaneous, and innocent, and represents beginnings. Inverted, it is risk taking, recklessness, and self-constraint.

And indeed all this can be said of Walpurgisnacht to some extent: She wanders the world freely, appearing where she will, and appears as a storm. Spontaneous. In her rejection of reality one might argue she has a sort of innocence in how she willfully blinds herself to what she has wrought. And, of course, she appears at the beginning of everything. In the first episode, the zero point, before the title card arrives, for her actions inspire Homura to contract in the first place.

But she is the witch of helplessness and she is quite literally inverted. As a witch, she is constrained by her own nature. She cannot be stopped, not even by herself. Of her recklessness, what needs to be said, save to show how she razes cities in her wake? And of risk taking, she only how she inspires others to drastic action forcing Madoka to make a wish unprepared. (And should she indeed be Dedolere, who is clipped away that she might grieve no more? Well, that indeed would be a risk to take, considering how often it has failed.)

And to like the fool, she is the first and final card. Who appears at the beginning of the show, and again at the end.

---------------------------

Anyways

Regarding Artz Kochen: We have not cleared the seed, as I want Anri to have some control over how to go about this.

And now, voting:

... jumping the gun a bit, aren't you? :V

But yeah, might as well put a vote together. This shouldn't be particularly contentious.

[X] Contact the Shiogama girls and ask to talk this afternoon.

[X] SCIENCE vote in abeyance.

[X] Fly to Fukushima.
-[X] Enchant some grief during the flight.

[X] Upon arriving:
-[X] Thank Fukushima again for their assistance.
-[X] Ask how secure Yuki can make her territory from QB's eavesdropping.
-[X] Hand over Rionna, "offscreen".
-[X] Ask if they have information about:
--[X] The Soujus.
--[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.
--[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.

[X] With Yuki, privately:
-[X] Discuss your dewitching plans, in the context of Airi's mental state.
--[X] Keep in mind Nadia's reaction, and reassure Yuki that you're being cautious, ethical, and methodical.
-[X] Request letting Airi channel her emotions into Yuuri's grief seed - this will require temporarily removing the anti-magic manacle.
-[X] Ask for a more detailed overview of Airi's mental state, to inform your approach to her.

Right now that I can get to this I have a few changes:

[X] Contact the Shiogama girls and ask to talk this afternoon.

[X] SCIENCE vote in abeyance.

[X] Fly to Fukushima.
-[X] Enchant some grief during the flight.
-[X] See what happens when you make a part of your window out of enchanted grief. Don't waste more than you have to in case you can't get it back.

Small, but highly useful test. I want to see if we can do windows without being witchy at all. Because if we can do windows, we can do so many other things.

And who knows, if our will doesn't come into it, this might be the start of a path towards making constructs that don't decay at the edge of our range, though I think it will take a bit more than just this.

[X] Upon arriving:
-[X] Thank Fukushima again for their assistance.
-[X] Ask how secure Yuki can make her territory from QB's eavesdropping.
-[X] Hand over Rionna, "offscreen".
-[X] Ask if they have information about:
--[X] The Soujus. Particularly what they can say of their character, time active, and why they do what they do.
--[X] Which girls they know do or suspect might know about soul gems and witches. Especially in Ishinomaki or among those we've already made contact with.
--[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.
--[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.

I want to be a bit more specific and involved with what we ask about the Soujos. Not sure this is all or exactly what we should be asking, but it should be wordier since we're likely to get into them soon.

Also, witchbomb contact info is highly important, and should be acquired wherever we have the opportunity to do so.

[X] With Yuki, privately:
-[X] Discuss your dewitching plans, in the context of Airi's mental state.
--[X] Keep in mind Nadia's reaction, and reassure Yuki that you're being cautious, ethical, and methodical.
-[X] Request giving Airi the choice to channel her emotions into Yuuri's grief seed - this will require temporarily removing the anti-magic manacle.
-[X] Ask for a more detailed overview of Airi's mental state, to inform your approach to her.

Small change: I do intend to give Anri the choice to go forwards now or wait until she knows more and think this captures that intent just a little better.
 
What are we going to talk to Shiogama about? Just a friendly visit, or was there something we didn't cover before dinner got interrupted by an unknown actor?
 
What are we going to talk to Shiogama about? Just a friendly visit, or was there something we didn't cover before dinner got interrupted by an unknown actor?

There's a number of hints that they know about the Witchbomb. We wanted to carefully probe that hypothesis - especially since we asked them to be a point of contact for incoming refugees, so it'd be better if they knew there was an infohazard.

Other than that, a few more minor things - informing them about the Animators, Kyouko, and our agreement with Fukushima; warning them about the Souju's likely arrival time and threat level.
 
[X] Redshirt Army


also for sounds... why not just use something from Madlax? : P .... also all the drum music I can find thats quick enough ends up like this... or this
 
Nah, the Fool arcana is Walprugisnacht. :V

This is poorly written compared to the Sabrina = Magician comparison, no incorporation of the card's symbolism, but here's a bit I cut from the post due to not fitting with what I wanted to say.

Walpurgisnacht is obviously the Tower, representing sudden change, crisis and inevitable destruction. She may be the Fool according to her description, but she doesn't demonstrate that in her capacity as the story's antagonist.
Instead, she acts as an insurmountable obstacle Homura cannot overcome.
Regarding Artz Kochen: We have not cleared the seed, as I want Anri to have some control over how to go about this.

Ugh, right. Details from two years ago start getting fuzzy, but you've argued that this could provide a powerful catharsis factor for Airi, while Onmur ( I think ) argued that just giving her the Clear Seed would be immensely more valuable, since we have another seed to experiment on and frankly know jack about how to go about dewitching ( having started on this roughly a week ago, sooo ).

Eh, gotta do a reread, one of these weeks.
 
[X] Stockpile enchanted grief during SCIENCE
[X] Contact the Shiogama refugees and ask if you could meet with them this afternoon.
[X] SCIENCE!
-[X] Set a timer.
--[X] Analyze your grief in more detail - can you sense who a given piece of grief came from, or what unhappy thoughts produced it?
---[X] Try to enchant something to store emotional grief directly - something along the lines of a bittersweet memento.
-[X] Try to dive into our 4-space, and inspect our stored street wear items for all trace particles , hair and interior dust. Minimal function Grief drone.
-[X] With any spare time, continue feeding Clear Seeds hope.
--[X] Inspect the crow with all senses. Interact with the crow, but not as a pet. Assume it understands anything we say, act like one of Sayaka's new buddies just happens to be mute, and a bird, but is otherwise a person. See what happens.


-[X] Enchant some grief during the flight.

[X] Upon arriving:
-[X] Thank Fukushima again for their assistance.
-[X] Ask how secure Yuki can make her territory from QB's eavesdropping..
-[X] Ask if they have information about:
--[X] The Soujus.
---[X] Tactical advice against a talented stalker
--[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.
--[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.

[X] With Yuki, privately:
-[X] Ask for a more detailed overview of Airi's mental state, to inform your approach to her.
-[X] Discuss your dewitching plans, in the context of Airi's mental state.
--[X] Keep in mind Nadia's reaction, and reassure Yuki that you're being cautious, ethical, and methodical.
---[X] Our next step - Float the idea of another facility for care of Soujo's victims / use in de-witching / incorporation of mundane assets


-[] Request letting Airi channel her emotions into Yuuri's grief seed - this will require temporarily removing the anti-magic manacle.
This is far out of place on the critical path. What should come before is an actual test of what is coming out of Anri.
Detail for us all what that test should be, or use this suggestion
- Let's enchant something inanimate together with Anri, so we will experience the truth of her. We have magic, this doesn't have to be a drawn-out process.
We might not want her to send her emotions anywhere yet. Or her monomania might be less toxic than it seems. Messing up that decision could set back our de-witching goal. Among other things.


Yuki has great insight of a certain nature - but please don't conflate her with a empathetic, matronly healer. Some things she will observe, and honestly tell us. Other important facts may not rate notice in her mind, given her history. She's stretching her moral abilities to become our ally. If she can suppress the Magi we ask her to, without abuse, it would not be clever to expect more right now.
Also, no longer ignoring a resource would be cool - Oriko didn't use magic on Airi, she used skill.


Let's all discuss what we are possibly doing with Anri. Both what's in the box, and how we want her situation to develop.

Superior information, even metaknowledge, is only useful if we apply it. Here, have my trial version:
Anri isn't a simple sociopath, though she exhibits strong psychotic behaviors in some situations. We know she both feels a need to obtain revenge for Yuuri, maintains a strong attachment to Yuuri, as well as harbors aspirations or jealousy centered on Yuuri. Can we pick that apart better? The true answer is relevant, given her Wish outcome. Does this almost guarantee feelings of inferiority are dominant in her? Does this generalize into 'inferiority complex' and or 'victimization?' Are we granting her wish, or taking it away? If we don't learn the heart of her, we can't expect to move her heart.

We may even have to find out how her basic mental functioning is, check for details of situational and personal orientation, intrusive thoughts, etc. I have no idea what kind of mess she might be in. I think we need to know. For one thing, we need to establish our concept of positive and negative reinforcements relating to her. Not the big awful stuff, but lesser biases, so we can get her to learn and grow a bit. The point of rehabilitation is to get a different person out at the conclusion. Kirika and Oriko are helping to fix one another, but Sabrina is currently the only significant girl active in Anri's life. Yuuri has all the 'value' as Anri sees things, but there is no doubt that Sabrina has assumed 'authority.'

That's why we have to jump right in and connect to this, as role-players. Sabrina has to try it, but as our SI she can do what we can, and won't succeed we don't. The difference between forcing our 'authority' upon Anri for her crimes, versus any of the darker readings, is what we do next. The promise to talk with her is significant, and thus we must not marginalize such a task. She can't get more sane by herself, but she could lose more. We aren't likely to find the right way to do this by ourselves, and our help is very late. So the practical course is what I recommend. Do what we can. Stick to the basics. Reinforce the sane part, discourage the crazy part. Repeat.

For today, I think we need to do a series of interview questions, to both gain lots of historical knowledge about her, and an understanding of what other people used to mean in her life before the Wish. Talk about her parents, siblings, teachers or other adults. What good memories does she have of places or events? We can spend some time setting future goals with her, not far future, but next week. For now, I would love to demonstrate Witch suffering to her, as well as trying to link Yuuri's fate to the other victims. Anri isn't showing a lot of empathy to others, so I want a long term goal of spreading that out a bit. Our task isn't to sell something, but to keep our agreement functioning. That involves identifying he other needs, besides de-witching, and contributing to those.
What we can do is teach her a bit about Grief, full demonstrations of the emotional coloring, but not feeding yet. Not until we know if she would be feeding bad stuff to Artz Kochen. We can talk about building bodies for the Soujo victims. She might have an interest in helping intermediate steps. We can make an appointment to gather for a work session to try that, and if we plan the security in advance Anri could take some enchantment lessons at that time. In no way will I create opportunities for her to escape, because even though she is here "voluntarily," she might change her mind. Those outcomes are to be avoided.

Come have fun, the delayed gratification way.
 
You know...
I had an idea
A lot of people seem to be all for Madoka going into politics

But I say nay
We need to go the way of maximum braindamage
Madoka needs to become involved in VA industry
So that we can arrange all the iconic roles that our hearts yearn for
Also, Youjo Senki

I just want to see Homura's face when we tell her Madoka is voicing Tanya Dragunova, dammit
That look of slowly dawning horrifying realization
Pure bliss
 
[X] Contact the Shiogama girls and ask to talk this afternoon.

[X] SCIENCE vote in abeyance.

[X] Fly to Fukushima.
-[X] Enchant some grief during the flight.
-[X] Chat with Mami. Just smalltalk, nothing major.
-[X] See what happens when you make a part of your window out of enchanted grief. Don't waste more than you have to in case you can't get it back.

[X] Upon arriving:
-[X] Thank Fukushima again for their assistance.
-[X] Ask how secure Yuki can make her territory from QB's eavesdropping.
-[X] Hand over Rionna, "offscreen".
-[X] Ask if they have information about:
--[X] The Soujus. Particularly what they can say of their character, time active, and why they do what they do.
--[X] Trustworthy magical girls with empathy/therapy powers.
--[X] The Murasaki Shrine Maidens.

[X] With Yuki, privately:
-[X] Discuss your dewitching plans, in the context of Airi's mental state.
--[X] Keep in mind Nadia's reaction, and reassure Yuki that you're being cautious, ethical, and methodical.
-[X] Request giving Airi the choice to channel her emotions into Yuuri's grief seed - this will require temporarily removing the anti-magic manacle.
-[X] Ask for a more detailed overview of Airi's mental state, to inform your approach to her.

E: Upon consideration, removed asking about witchbombed girls from the "public" part of the vote. We don't know for certain that all of the Fukushima group is witchbombed - it'd be safer to discuss it with Yuki afterwards.
 
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