*frowns* Being the Ishinomaki group's doormat is very unappealing to me.
More unappealing than deaths?
In any case, we don't have to make a limitless offer. Just one that makes taking metaphorical gold more appealing than going all-out for nonmetaphorical blood.
But we're not going to be able to hide the revelation by going with any plan that involves negotiation and if it's a worst case scenario, better to ask the people who aren't going to just blurt out the details of what happened after they refused to heal.
If it turns out to be a revelation that needs hiding, we can alter the plan. It is stupid to assume that the moderately-nefarious group who've got people seriously out for their scalps haven't killed anyone. This is the assumption you're making.
 
I mean... I'm having trouble thinking of any reason we shouldn't get as much information as soon as possible. Stuff is happening for a reason, and I think it's beneficial to know what that reason is. It can't be that bad, can it?
 
If it turns out to be a revelation that needs hiding, we can alter the plan. It is stupid to assume that the moderately-nefarious group who've got people seriously out for their scalps haven't killed anyone. This is the assumption you're making.
No, it isn't. If they've killed people, we can work with that. Justify it as stopping further bloodshed, but Mami would go with us on stopping them from getting killed.

@Uncreative Avoiding information from fear won't help.
 
I mean... I'm having trouble thinking of any reason we shouldn't get as much information as soon as possible. Stuff is happening for a reason, and I think it's beneficial to know what that reason is. It can't be that bad, can it?
We absolutely have need-to-know, and should find out within minutes. Mami does not, and even the best possible explanation for the vendetta would go down poorly with her.
 
I mean... I'm having trouble thinking of any reason we shouldn't get as much information as soon as possible. Stuff is happening for a reason, and I think it's beneficial to know what that reason is. It can't be that bad, can it?
One tag of the quest is diabolical laughter... And we are talking abou a PMMM quest here. Things could be really bad.

We also need some way to verify what they are telling us, to avoid being played by one side against the other.
 
The idea of hiding it from her with her along for negotiations is ludicrously optimistic.
Ideally, you're right. Ideally, we have to hide nothing. Ideally, this is an unnecessary precaution. The cost of not taking it and then finding out it's a not-ideal situation - again - would be significant, and I don't want us to step into another catastrofuck because of unwarranted optimism.
 
We also need some way to verify what they are telling us, to avoid being played by one side against the other.

That's something I hadn't thought of. No matter how much caution we exercise, it doesn't really matter if it turns out all they're feeding us is lies. I kind of doubt asking the other side what's going on is a viable option.
 
You're talking about this question like Kirika has some kind of answer. Kirika, a girl so uninterested in experimentation that her solution to dealing with a witch she couldn't cut with her claws was to make even bigger claws.
No, I'm not. Of course Kirika doesn't have any kind of answer. If she did, she would have told us earlier when we asked about it. The questions are posed as things to consider when doing our experimentation into the nature and properties of magic/grief.

For example, we should not make assumptions about how our grief manipulation powers work. Perhaps we simply 'puppet' grief with our magic. Perhaps we control grief directly. Perhaps magic and grief are simply two forms of the same thing.
 
Maybe Homura didn't want to go into detail over telepathy, because it would have given her away as a time traveler to Kyubey? She's still trying to hide that from him right? Other than that, I've got nothing.
 
For example, we should not make assumptions about how our grief manipulation powers work. Perhaps we simply 'puppet' grief with our magic. Perhaps we control grief directly. Perhaps magic and grief are simply two forms of the same thing.

I think grief and magic are different, but connected things, since using magic creates grief in the soul gem.
Since the magic cancel killed our control of the marbles and grief cloud when we fought Kirika, but the marbles themselves were fine and we could control them again as soon as the cancel wore off, it's save to say that we use magic to control our grief.
That also supports your previous theory that witches are made out of grief that is held together by magic, hence them "melting" when Kirika uses her power on them opposed to us ripping them apart directly, since we can't cancel out the magic. Maybe the reason for the resistance when trying to rip apart the witches is that we have to overcome the magic that holds them together?
 
Er, not exactly. Making witches "melt" implies that Kirika's powers breaks/neutralizes the bonds that hold the "matter" that comprises the witch together (in this case, Grief), thus, they fall apart. Kirika can't control grief, so it just melts.

We, on the other hand, tear a witch apart by forcibly taking control of parts of it, which, in the process, removes them from the Witch's "body". We control Grief, so it stays in chunks and moves as we want it to--otherwise, it would probably melt in a vaguely similar fashion.

Picture it this way: you're powering a bunch of magnets that are stuck together in an intricate pattern. Kirika's powers short-circuit the mechanism powering the magnets, thus causing the magnets to just fall apart. We, on the other hand, control magnetism and exert our control over some of the magnets to move them and manipulate them as we see fit, in the process tearing those magnets away from the others.

We don't really know how magic and grief are related, or how much of a distinction between them actually exists. Kirika's powers do work on our grief manipulation too, though, so it's probable that her powers aren't simply "antimagic" as you would define it, but "antimagic/anti-grief/etc".

Hell, how would you define Kirika's powers if they are "anti-magic"? She uses magic that eliminates magic? Is it some kind of selective nullification magic, or is it something distinctly different from magic and grief altogether?
I was thinking along these lines, but you put it to words so much better. Much obliged.

For example, we should not make assumptions about how our grief manipulation powers work. Perhaps we simply 'puppet' grief with our magic. Perhaps we control grief directly. Perhaps magic and grief are simply two forms of the same thing.

You sort of wonder whether you can change how those work, though, you muse as you land on the ground again. You prod at the wings with your Grief manipulation - interestingly, you can sense tendrils of magic connecting from you to the wings, which makes sense. Similar tendrils wind through every bit of Grief you have - your bag, with all the marbles in it, shows up as a incandescent bundle of magic and Grief.

Suggests we're manipulating Grief using magic, not directly. Thoughts?
 
Maybe Homura didn't want to go into detail over telepathy, because it would have given her away as time traveler to Kyubey? She's still trying to hide that from him right? Other than that, I've got nothing.
Or it's Homura having the social skills of a brick- but that's plausible. As an aside, I'll be shocked if Kyubey doesn't already know Homura's a time traveller, that we know about witches, and that we're trying to reverse-engineer soul gems.

@Krecart
Definitely Probably the case.
 
The idea of hiding it from her with her along for negotiations is ludicrously optimistic.
And, knowing this, you decided to go right ahead for direct, immediate negotiations anyway? The fuck?

I mean, you are basically throwing yourself into a situation that could go catastrophically wrong, and then acting as if we had no choice in the matter. Yeah, it's too late now, because you insisted it be that way. You wanted us to charge in immediately, so saying "expecting this to not go horribly wrong is ludicrously optimistic" at this point is total 180 from your previous position, and you are pretending it isn't.

I'm with Askari on this one. I can believe you not really listening, Ugo, because you shamelessly admitted that you'd rather screw over a quest than listen to me, no matter what I have to say. I can fully sympathize with him here, because talking in circles is migraine-inducing.
 
Askari flouncing off aside, Waffles, I'm always willing to listen to people with something to say.

Yes, yes I did. I gambled that it wasn't the witchbomb, and have a plan that boils down to "hit the panic button" for if it is. I have no problems with Mami finding out about any of Sendai's misdeeds that don't directly involve the Witchbomb.

We throw ourselves in because it's the best option. We don't hide things from her once we've gone in unless we get a sign it's the Witchbomb because that, too, is the best option. I don't see what's so difficult to understand about that.
 
Last edited:
Because I can't be paranoid enough:

"What did you mean, when you said that the Sendai girls aren't totally blameless?" you ask.

Homura doesn't respond immediately. "You should have asked before you left," she says tonelessly. "They were... not gentle about their... operations."
It depends on what she means by 'operations'. Presumably it corresponds to 'means of acquiring grief seeds', of which the primary means has been payment for healing (at least in the recent past, since Rin is a relatively new member). Other operations may have been in play prior to Rin's joining (possibly another healer that witched out after the lichbomb? a friend of one of the university group, the one that went to Tome?).

How could they 'not be gentle' about such matters? Aside from forcibly taking grief seeds....

We know that when the Tohoku group approached Mami, they were nervous, possibly scared of being caught. Likely paranoia about the main Sendai group finding out?

How likely is it that the Sendai group engaged in operations similar to the Tokyo 6 — using hostages and turning MGs into grief seeds?

Would they think that, rather than our grief control being a benefit, it's actually a threat? Their extortionate behavior is part of what gave them power. If we kill the value of grief seeds, their power tanks with it. Would they want to eliminate that threat that would undercut their power, despite what it would cost them? Unfortunately, humans are prone to such irrational actions...


Right, how would the Sendai set fight, as a group?

Water controller
Teleporter
Healer
Gravity control
Force fields

Gravity control to hinder mobility. Force fields for defense and to remove escape vectors. Teleporter for fast attacks that are difficult to defend against (and we already know that Sakura is quick on the lethal attacks). Water control and force fields can help counter most powers' direct attacks. Water control can also play subtle, trickles of water on the street that you don't notice til it's too late. Healing can probably be reversed, for nasty body decay attacks, if she gets into melee range.

They know of Sabrina's powers, and they should know Mami by reputation. They know nothing about Kirika.

If they attack with just the three of them here:

If they decided that we were more trouble than we're worth, they'd most likely focus on Sabrina first, as the greatest known threat. Akiko distracts us with a direct attack, and Sakura teleports for a fast kick or sword strike to our neck. Rin moves in to disable Mami, and then the three can turn to the unknown threat to deal with Kirika. They will likely be surprised by dullahan!Sabrina getting back up to attack, and Kirika's null blast should make this end pretty quick after that, as long as she has enough time to act.

They -might- attack Kirika first, as an unknown threat, but I can't imagine them being willing to let Sabrina act when they know what she can do with the grief in your soul gem.

If they get the entire group of 5 back together before attacking:

The first attack would likely be to separate us with force fields, and gravity attack to keep us stuck, followed by the above combo. While that would normally be effective in further reducing our options, Mami's guns and our grief manipulation should be relatively free even with the gravity attack, and the extra delay before they start the combo will allow Kirika to NOPE them before it gets off the ground. After that, it's slice and dice time.


It would be nice to ensure that such an attack never gets off the ground in the first place. If they plan to attack, they're likely to request actions that would lower our defenses first (eg: Can you put those balls of grief away? They're rather disturbing.) Perhaps a lining of grief inside our cloak, as a 'shield' against an attack from behind. Keep our senses tuned for any of them drawing on their magic. A keyword to get Kirika to null-magic (since it takes a few seconds to charge up)?
 
Rin's a newbie and I believe Firn's implied she joined AFTER the trouble started. I also can't really see her joining in a gank.

The best anti-gank measure would be to detransform our gem into ring form, or at least take it off our coat if that'd affect our magic use.
 
Last edited:
Honestly, I'm getting the impression that everyone on both sides are being enormous bitches. It's just that the Sendai girls are the ones being attacked, so we're siding with them for the time being. I'm not sure if Firnagzen would make it easy for us by having a clearly "good" side in this conflict.
 
Last edited:
eugh. I get the feeling Mami's going to be even more hurt if she doesn't hear about the witchbomb from us. Something something "You knew about the system" something something.
 
eugh. I get the feeling Mami's going to be even more hurt if she doesn't hear about the witchbomb from us. Something something "You knew about the system" something something.
That's the problem with the Witchbomb. There is no good time or way to drop it intentionally -even if doing so provides greater control of the circumstances and context- but the alternative of just letting it occur whenever is also really bad. There isn't a good answer here or we'd probably have done whatever it is already.
 
That's the problem with the Witchbomb. There is no good time or way to drop it intentionally -even if doing so provides greater control of the circumstances and context- but the alternative of just letting it occur whenever is also really bad. There isn't a good answer here or we'd probably have done whatever it is already.

I get the feeling that Mami's going to get witchbombed in this conflict, then Homura's going to fuck off to some other timeline.
 
Back
Top