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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Guys. I have the perfect solution to all of this.
[Jk] Go up to Mami.
-[Jk] Put your hand on her shoulder.
--[Jk] "Hey."
This will solve all of our problems, and is guaranteed to work on blondes. I see nothing wrong with this course of action.
 
Redshirt Army said:
But I think that we need to consider the possibility that maybe a witch isn't the same thing as the original magical girl. In which case, dewitching isn't possible. The best we could do is the PMKM thing, where we create a new person from the ashes of the old.
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Honestly, I'm scared of that possibility. We've invested a lot, at least in-thread, into dewitching. Conceding that fight... don't know what it would do to Sabrina.

However, as has been said time and time again, everything can be fixed. If dewitching is impossible, we beat the laws of metaphysics until we make it possible. If nothing remains of the original girl, then, I don't know, raid the Akashic Record, or crack temporal travel along a single timeline and snatch 'em from the moment of witchout. Something, anything. Hell, if the theories on why Madoka made her wish last loop is right, dewitching is one of the primary things in "I wish everything could be fixed". If it was impossible before, it isn't now.

We will crack dewitching. We need to crack dewitching. Because I don't like what might happen if we can't.
 
Evilness42 said:
What does this even mean? Abelism is defined as 'discriminating in favour of the able-bodied,' so far as I know. Do you define 'the incapacity to recognise sarcasm' as a disability that some people possess, and my use of a conventional communication technique as somehow discriminating against them? Something I wrote was misinterpreted, and I provided a correction.
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I mean, like... sarcasm is really dependent on additional social cues that aren't present in purely textual environments anyway, and the internet acts like an equalizing playing field to people with social disabilities such as autism; and on top of that, sarcasm and other things of that nature are often extremely difficult to pick up in text for someone who isn't English First Language.

So, like, it's one thing to be sarcastic but imo it's a bit too far to chide someone for not picking up on it.

Re: Witches not being the original girl, I'm... honestly not sure how this can even be possible, when like the entirety of Rebellion is from a Witch's point of view.

Like, the matter of Familiars is a very important one, but I want to raise that technically, if we're being really critical, our only evidence that Familiars become a perfect clone of its mother is the PSP game, and that MIGHT be either timeline-wonkiness changing which Magical Girl defeats Giselle, or it could be a videogame abstraction, or Kyubey could've recycled the Grief Seed like he almost-definitely-totally-did with Charlotte.

The problem is that we've also got no Witch Cards describing Witches that are implied to be Familiar-born or made form a conglomerate of Muggles, but at the same time it SHOULD be theoretically possible because Walpurgis is herself a fusion of multiple souls.

So either A) Familiar-grown Witches are clones of the parent made from a bunch of human souls, or B) Familiar-grown Witches are entirely new witches made from a bunch of human souls.

Both of these are, uh... concerning. But to me, neither of these make me concerned that a Witch isn't the Magical Girl.

I mean, putting aside all the data points Redshirt brought up, there's also "Madoka dewitched Sayaka in Different Story." And yea, Madowishes do anything, but a Madowish is why we're here (as far as we know).

Actually, let me just go one step farther. If Witches aren't the original girl, and dewitching is impossible save for making Kazumi-type clones, then Madoka's wish can't come true.

I refuse to accept that.
 
AuraTwilight said:
@Evilness24 Yea, but Mami seems to primarily just get gemsploded instead of Witched out, judging by extracanonical materials and Homura's own commentary on her fragility.
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Why is that, anyway? Shouldn't Mami be the least likely to die, since she wished to be connected to life or something? She effectively wished to live; I would have assumed she'd be the perfect witch bait. Especially with being so vulnerable to the lich/witch bombs.
 
Redshirt Army said:
Well damn, I stand corrected.

Still, how the heck does that work? If we crack dewitching, won't we have an extra Sayaka? (And Mami, and Kyouko, etc?)
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Alternatively, Godwinson has been right the entire time, and Mitakihara will be the land of the mermaids. :V

Though really, if Walprugisnacht and conglomerate witches (and, for that matter, Homura's loops,) are any indication we know souls can combine, so all the instances of each person could all decide to become a single being.

Redshirt Army said:
Hmmmmm.

@Godwinson 's right that this should make us reconsider core beliefs.

The one I'm looking most askance at right now is the assumption that witches and magical girls are the same entity.

The main points that have supported this interpretation up till now are:
• Witches follow the thematic themes and beliefs of their originating magical girl incredibly closely.
• Witches have acted on the beliefs and desires of their originating magical girls on many occasions - Kirika, Kazumi, Hinata, etc.
• Sayaka speaks of having personally experienced Octavia's suffering in Rebellion.
• Homucifer, who is clearly Homura, is born from the witch Homulily.

I'm... not sure what it would even mean for witches to not be the magical girl that created them. It massively shifts the metaphor of witching out as depression, for one thing.

Still, there is some potentially interesting PMAS exclusive evidence supporting the idea of the two as separate, beyond Homura being able to bring forth a duplicate soul: Namely, that duplicate witches already exist.

We've encountered enough witches by now that at least some of them should have been "familiar-norm", instead of "first-generation".

And yet, we haven't seen any distinguishing marks to differentiate familiar-born witches from ones spawned by magical girls succumbing to despair. Ergo, familiars have been putting together a perfect replica of existing witches.

I've explained this away in the past by saying that maybe the familiars are just "patching together" a close enough soul out of many mundane souls, that the ideal of that magical girl's soul can manifest through the facsimile.

And, sure, maaaybe that's the case - you could even attribute the duplicate Grief Seeds that Homura creates to whatever metaphysical process makes duplicate Grief Seeds possible in general.

But I think that we need to consider the possibility that maybe a witch isn't the same thing as the original magical girl. In which case, dewitching isn't possible. The best we could do is the PMKM thing, where we create a new person from the ashes of the old.
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Honestly, I can see it working with the depression metaphor:

Stuff like depression, loneliness, and pain can very fundamentally change you as a person, and cut you off from large swathes of who you used to be, even if you recover.

As far as the impact of it all? It honestly doesn't change the calculus or strategy in my eyes. Tactics sure, since we can't outright say we're bringing people back, but it pays to be cautious and uncertain about that anyways.

But the actual material fact of the matter is the same as always: A person who we haven't met before is suffering.

If we can help them to recover and live full lives, then we should.


(Though I'll add that if witch's true name and the name on the ring are primary indicators of the two being different people, that would kinda say interesting things about Sabrina's ring and soul both saying "Dedolere.")
 
A short list of potentially invalid assumptions:
  1. All souls behave the same when Homura carries them.
  2. A soul only manifests in a single body in any given reality.
  3. Souls necessarily connect to their other manifestations in a given reality.
Some models which would fall out from checking violations of these assumptions:
  • The mental time travel that Homura has is a special case as a result of her Wish to go back and personally do it over again. Without that specific part of her wish causing her soul to manifest through an existing vessel we'd be seeing a Crisis On Infinite Homurae. Homura and Moemura existing simultaneously is I believe only found in some non-canon works, but the mechanical possibility may transfer over from non-canon works the same way the Grief Seed travel did.
  • A soul's manifestations have to collaborate to unify into a single manifestation. This is normally trivial and part of the fundamental property of being a soul. The phenomenon of Wish Rejection is another result of this mechanism - the Wish is granted/powered by the collective Soul, and a rejected Wish is a manifestation rejecting the soul and in the process losing access to the power. Witches are too far turned inward to reach out and connect like this.
  • A soul defends itself from the grossly negative feelings of a Witched-Out portion by walling it off and refusing to give it enough bandwidth to unify in the same way that magical girls can if they're traveling with their whole spirit.
  • In the same way that a magical girl who rejects her Wish loses the power that's associated with the Wish, a magical girl who rejects her soul becomes a Witch. Dewitching is the process of convincing a girl to take her soul back up. They may come out as a slightly different manifestation of the soul, the same way Oriko's new power is not the same as her original power, but it's still the same girl.
  • ~Magic~
 
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Sentient Tree said:
Why is that, anyway? Shouldn't Mami be the least likely to die, since she wished to be connected to life or something? She effectively wished to live; I would have assumed she'd be the perfect witch bait. Especially with being so vulnerable to the lich/witch bombs.
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Mami's canonical reaction to the Lich/Witch-bombs (when delivered in a stressful situation, as Kyubey is wont to arrange) is to immediately attempt to kill every magical girl in the vicinity before committing suicide. It's nigh impossible to kill her in a fight, unless she's ambushed while distracted (see Charlotte and Madoka) or utterly overwhelmed (see Walpurgisnacht).
 
Sentient Tree said:
Why is that, anyway? Shouldn't Mami be the least likely to die, since she wished to be connected to life or something? She effectively wished to live; I would have assumed she'd be the perfect witch bait. Especially with being so vulnerable to the lich/witch bombs.
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Because Mami's mind was a fragile house of cards. First, she can witch out over realizing that she could've wished for her AND her parents to live. Her guilt over being too selfish/stupid to think about her parents can end her immediately.

Secondly, she self-destructs as long as she learns about witches and suicides.

Thirdly, according to the PSP game, as part of her grief spiral, Mami commits suicide if she knows the Lichbomb regardless of knowing the Witchbomb.

Sooo, yea, she predominantly dies by gemsploding.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Because Mami's mind was a fragile house of cards. First, she can witch out over realizing that she could've wished for her AND her parents to live. Her guilt over being too selfish/stupid to think about her parents can end her immediately.

Secondly, she self-destructs as long as she learns about witches and suicides.

Thirdly, according to the PSP game, as part of her grief spiral, Mami commits suicide if she knows the Lichbomb regardless of knowing the Witchbomb.

Sooo, yea, she predominantly dies by gemsploding.
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mumi why
 
Now this is strictly my personal speculation, so do take this with more than a pinch of Mt. Salinkanasis Grade Salt here:

The way I've always headcanon Witches was that- rather than being purely the soul of the Magical Girl twisted and corrupted beyond recognition by their sorrow and curses at the world were instead consumed by them in a very literal sense. As in, the dark feelings of hatred, sorrow, grief, etc., slowly gain strength and power within the magic of the soul gem- which causes the soul they cloud to feel those feelings further: causing a recursion of those same feelings (i.e. The phenomenon we've called a Grief Spiral). At a certain point, those feelings that are pushed away or transferred into Grief Seeds cannot be contained or brushed aside and hidden any longer, and when those feelings of despair and or anger overtake and overpower any possible hope the soul posses... the Soul Gem hatches and the Witch breaks free. The Soul still exists, but instead of being trapped in the Golden Cage of a Soul Gem, it has been ensnared... consumed and imprisoned by their own despair in a trap they willingly sold their own soul for.

What does it mean if my speculation proves right? It means De-Witching is indeed possible because so long as the soul hasn't been forfeited to Kyubey via handing their Grief Seed over, the Soul can be salvaged. We've emptied several Grief Seeds now... and for the sake of our sanity lets not think about the ethical ramifications of drowning an Empty Grief Seed with the Grief of other Magical Girls after we've just removed all the sadness and or hate the Magical Girl previously was suffering in. Instead, if my speculation is correct, this means we're already well on our way to solving de-witching... because right now I would term what the soul has been feeling as a lack of emotion or numbness... since all they've been feeling till turning them into Clear Seeds was their own misery. Now they lack anything to remind them of hope.

Recall when we started projecting Hope and Happy-Filled Magic into those Grief Seeds? @Godwinson can you find the relevant quotes I'm referring too? I forget which chapter that particular experiment happened on. Anyway, those Grief Seeds were soaking that magic in. What if we did something like that... but on a much LARGER scale? By that, I mean bringing Sayaka and Homura in to help us (Mami too if we can Lich and Witchbomb her WITHOUT her witching out herself). It takes Madoka and her ridiculous amount of karmic destiny to de-witch someone, so wouldn't it follow that it would likewise take a tremendous amount of magic and power to do the same for ourselves? Sabrina may have made the wish to control Grief... but wouldn't it stand to reason our ability to control/ use Hope may need more than a little helping hand?

Apologies if this was a bit rambly...
 
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Redshirt Army said:
But I think that we need to consider the possibility that maybe a witch isn't the same thing as the original magical girl. In which case, dewitching isn't possible. The best we could do is the PMKM thing, where we create a new person from the ashes of the old.
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I think that the only thing I can say to this is that the conclusion here doesn't actually follow the assertions.

The witch may well not be the same as the original magical girl, but that doesn't mean that they can't be switched between. We are dealing with magic here remember, whether or not the Witch and Magical Girl are the same being, they still share a connection with each other. As long as the connection exists, we can use that to access either one, at least in theory.
 
@Cae Lumis

So dewitching can only happen through the power of FRIENDSHIP? That seems accurate. After all we're trying to turn a deconstruction into a reconstruction. Holding hands and hoping should make miracles happen.
 
SomeOneElse007 said:
So dewitching can only happen through the power of FRIENDSHIP? That seems accurate. After all we're trying to turn a deconstruction into a reconstruction. Holding hands and hoping should make miracles happen.
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Bingo! That's exactly the idea. After all, in Rebellion: Madoka without her Ultimate Power couldn't reach Homulilly by herself to save Homura's soul within its prison of despair and Grief. Everyone had to help her. It can be done, but much like every other time Sabrina has attempted to do something, we need help to make the dream happen. Us and our Grief Power can only carry us so far, the power of Friendship and Love requires more than a single person to make it real.
 
It was Nova Prospekt part 7 I think. Yeah this part right here.

Firnagzen said:
Instead, you pull Aurora out of your pocket, holding the Clear Seed up to the light. Kirika peeks at it, clearly interested, but doesn't say anything, simply observing instead. You...

Well, you still don't really know what you're doing. But something happened when you channelled your hope into the Clear Seed, so you'll keep trying. But perhaps not just that.

Emotions.

A Grief Seed is drowning in despair, the last moments of a magical girl before she turned into a Witch. A Clear Seed is... empty. It soaks up hope. So... what about other things?

You stroke a finger over the transparent crystal, magic gathering under your fingertip as you try and focus on the past day. The time you'd spent with your friends, with Mami. The joy of the talking to her, of seeing her so happy, of being with her.

Something flickers within the Clear Seed in response, there and gone again before you really have time to notice it. Your eyes widen, and you try to repeat that, calling to mind this morning. Mami, again, the simple intoxicating delight of seeing her happy and confident. Talking to Homura and Sayaka and Madoka and Hitomi and Nagisa, to the time you're spending right now with Oriko and Kirika.

... nothing.

There's no reaction this time, and you purse your lips, frowning at the Clear Seed.
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SomeOneElse007 said:
It was Nova Prospekt part 7 I think. Yeah this part right here.
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Thanks! Yep, my memory was spot on, we had something there... but then never really explored past it. As I suggested earlier, What if we simply amplified the experiment by severalfold? If the hope of one magical girl is not enough, what about 3? 4? 6? It probably would take quite a bit of hope to equal the amount of hope that was expended during the birth of a Witch.
 
Cae Lumis said:
Thanks! Yep, my memory was spot on, we had something there... but then never really explored past it. As I suggested earlier, What if we simply amplified the experiment by severalfold? If the hope of one magical girl is not enough, what about 3? 4? 6? It probably would take quite a bit of hope to equal the amount of hope that was expended during the birth of a Witch.
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It's possible the power of multiple girls might end up being multiplicative rather than additive - at least to a point. Staying full of hope when you're alone is hard - it's a candle. With a friend it gets easier becoming a fire. With 4-5 it could very well be an explosion of hope and awesome. Add a couple more girls and it might level off - after all crowds are fickle beasts while close knit groups aren't (as much depending on the group).
 
Cae Lumis said:
Thanks! Yep, my memory was spot on, we had something there... but then never really explored past it. As I suggested earlier, What if we simply amplified the experiment by severalfold? If the hope of one magical girl is not enough, what about 3? 4? 6? It probably would take quite a bit of hope to equal the amount of hope that was expended during the birth of a Witch.
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We need to have a fallback plan in case these things backfire though. Better safe then sorry.
 
SomeOneElse007 said:
It's possible the power of multiple girls might end up being multiplicative rather than additive - at least to a point. Staying full of hope when you're alone is hard - it's a candle. With a friend it gets easier becoming a fire. With 4-5 it could very well be an explosion of hope and awesome. Add a couple more girls and it might level off - after all crowds are fickle beasts while close knit groups aren't (as much depending on the group).
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More or less what I was thinking too about this approach: You need the group to be close-knit enough that each feeling of hope, friendship, love, determination, etc. reinforces each other and doesn't become nebulous, which creates a reinforcing message of "We're in this together, we all share the same hopes and dreams. You don't have to hate anymore, you don't have to cry anymore, you are not alone." At max (and this is only if we can play our upcoming hands correctly), I was imagining a group mainly consisting Sabrina, Homura, Sayaka, Mami, and the Kures... though perhaps the core of the Pleiades Saints (Michiru, Umika, and Kaoru) would be a good substitute if we don't work out an eventual peace between Homura and Oriko.

Edit to avoid double post:
Johnnyboy306 said:
We need to have a fallback plan in case these things backfire though. Better safe then sorry.
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Fair enough, this would be a gamble since it requires the investment of many people to attempt it, and it failing... yeah gonna need a bit to come up with Plan B.
 
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Evilness42 said:
I say we should extract the power of the past lives and empower the current souls with it. Fuel the fires of progress with lives!



Nah, man. Kyoko is waaaayy more stable than Mami. She'll be the lowest one on which the other ratios are based.
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we could also like, give dewitched sayakas to sayaka and have a mindhive sayaka of sayaka from many timelines. a soujo of sayakas, a walpurgisnaught of sayakas, a sayakanaught.
 
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