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Puella Magi Adfligo Systema

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Neinet said:
After thinking about it for a bit I think the reason why I valued 3 as that low was mostly because I didn't want it to be true, and so I let my bias affect my estimation. I should ask myself what my reasons are for things in more detail before posting them I think. :p
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Remember: PMMM was written by Urobochi. The correct answer to a question is usually the most horrible one. :V
 
OK, you know what? I'll put this particular one to an end. This is my view, and canon to PMAS.

Yes, Homura can bring Grief Seeds back with her. No, she doesn't have very many, because while she's efficient, it's still hard to run on a surplus of Grief Seeds. (Keep in mind? The number of loops is large, not infinite.)

And she tries her utmost not to dip into that reserve pile save for desperate times, like when it comes time to fight against Walpurgisnacht, if only because she doesn't want to reveal to Kyuubey that she's a time traveler.

Also, the Grief Seeds she tends to keep and tries hardest not to use are those of the Mitakihara group. Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami, but not Madoka's. Never Madoka's.
 
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I still think we should ask to have a looksee at the grief seeds for the mitikahara group. To see what happens to the girls in question. For science.
 
Torgamous said:
Has getting Madoka's Grief Seed ever been remotely viable?
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I somewhat doubt it. By timeline 4 Kriemhild Gretchen was a planet killer, only got stronger from there, and I don't think she's the type to suicide for the sake of Homura. Also, I don't think Mom would keep KG's seed even if she got her hands on it.

Candeloro, Oktavia, and Ophelia, however, are likely. (Especially Ms Mermaid.) I'd also be interested in poking a Charlotte grief seed, and comparing her to the uncontracted Nagisa.
 
Thank you, Firn! I updated my vote accordingly.


Torgamous said:
Has getting Madoka's Grief Seed ever been remotely viable?
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Perhaps in an early loop? Or a Mado-wish specifically involving her own Witch not being dangerous? She could have tried to get it, followed by attempted de-witching. Experience could be why she was so insistent on us being careful with our de-witching project. Here's our conversations on De-witching with Homura so far, for reference, because I think they're relevant regarding the information about the Mitakihara group's Grief seeds.

Firnagzen said:
"Yeah," you say. "I- OK, Homura, I'm going to put this simply. I don't know whether you would have come across it during your time travel, but I have reason to believe that the girls from Asunaro, managed to create a partial method of de-Witching. It wasn't perfect, but it's a hell of a lot closer than anything I know of."

"I... see," Homura says. She seems taken aback for once, eyes slightly widened and lips parted just a hair. "That is... that would be..."

"Yeah," you say. "And, um, the other thing I want to learn from them if it's at all possible is that they created an anti-Kyuubey field. They managed to make it so that nobody in their entire city could see or even remember Kyuubey's existence."

Homura sucks in a sharp breath, and this time, you can all but see the gears turning in her head. "I-"

"Yeah," you say, nodding. "Um, just to bring you up to speed, since I'm guessing you never went over there, Mami's ex-student, Michiru Kazusa, is the leader of the girls over there, the Pleiades Saints. She's due to Witch out, which sets off a whole chain of events that results in the developments of, um, the two pieces of magic I mentioned."

Homura nods again, wordless but attention locked on to you. You can see her making the connections in her head, the pieces slotting together. "You are sure?"

You wobble your hand from side to side. "Yeeeees, but there are, uh, complications I want to bring everyone up to speed on. Shall we?"
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Firnagzen said:
"Is that Grief?" she asks, staring at the Clear Seed.

"Yeah," you say. "I've been pouring... well, I don't know what to call it. Happiness-flavoured magic? It's possible to channel emotions into magic, it seems, and Clear Seeds seem to soak it up."

Homura frowns at the Clear Seed.

"Also, the Grief has my enchantment applied to it," you say. "I'm not sure why, but instead of just absorbing the Grief like it does with normal Grief, the Clear Seed seems to want to build a shell?"

"I... see," Homura says. She looks kind of perturbed, staring at the Clear Seed.

"Yeah," you say. "Honestly, I'm not sure what to make of it, either. It's progress, definitely, but I'm figuring out progress towards what."

Homura looks up at you, almost pinning you in place with her gaze. "Be careful."

"I..." you almost flinch from the intensity of her glare. "I will. I... I'm actually planning on trying to make contact, or build a body next?"

Homura jabs a finger at the Clear Seed. "You don't know what that is," she says. "Be careful."

"I will," you affirm. "I will. I promise, Homura. I... you're right. If I don't know what I've woken up in there... I shouldn't just willy-nilly give it a body without being sure first, yeah."

Homura nods, amethyst eyes never breaking contact with yours.

You smile at Homura. "Hey. Thanks for looking out for me," you say. "I really appreciate it, Homura."
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AuraTwilight said:
I mean, fuck, the fact that Sabrina remembers realities that can't possibly happen, now, as well as other hypothetical universes is in of itself damning.
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Is it?

I mean, Oriko's precog lets her view a plethora of possible futures, but that doesn't mean that all of those futures are real; I think magic has to be able to pull information from counterfactual realities, even if there are still a multitude of real worlds and alternate timelines.
 
Firnagzen said:
OK, you know what? I'll put this particular one to an end. This is my view, and canon to PMAS.

Yes, Homura can bring Grief Seeds back with her. No, she doesn't have very many, because while she's efficient, it's still hard to run on a surplus of Grief Seeds. (Keep in mind? The number of loops is large, not infinite.)

And she tries her utmost not to dip into that reserve pile save for desperate times, like when it comes time to fight against Walpurgisnacht, if only because she doesn't want to reveal to Kyuubey that she's a time traveler.

Also, the Grief Seeds she tends to keep and tries hardest not to use are those of the Mitakihara group. Sayaka, Kyouko, Mami, but not Madoka's. Never Madoka's.
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Thank you. And also, that's EXTREMELY interesting. Because we know that metaphysically Grief Seeds are the same person as a Soul Gem.

So... what's the prob--

Oh.

Oh, duh, of course.

Because Homura's magic considers a Grief Seed to be someone beyond saving, so it would go against her wish.

Which, of course, brings us back to the earlier raised point that a contracted Madoka isn't necessarily a doomed one (not that I'm in favor of deploying this idea), and that Homura's magic was intended for her to loop with Madoka as a partner.
 
I say we should extract the power of the past lives and empower the current souls with it. Fuel the fires of progress with lives!

Nervos Belli said:
I wonder what the ratio of seeds is? I'm gonna put my money on a 1 Mami : 3 Kyoko : 10 Sayaka ratio in her shield.
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Nah, man. Kyoko is waaaayy more stable than Mami. She'll be the lowest one on which the other ratios are based.
 
AuraTwilight said:
Thank you. And also, that's EXTREMELY interesting. Because we know that metaphysically Grief Seeds are the same person as a Soul Gem.

So... what's the prob--

Oh.

Oh, duh, of course.

Because Homura's magic considers a Grief Seed to be someone beyond saving, so it would go against her wish.

Which, of course, brings us back to the earlier raised point that a contracted Madoka isn't necessarily a doomed one (not that I'm in favor of deploying this idea), and that Homura's magic was intended for her to loop with Madoka as a partner.
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Or maybe it's something more fundamental that you got wrong with your headcanon. Consider how dead certain you were that it wouldn't be the case. Examine your damn beliefs.
 
Godwinson said:
Or maybe it's something more fundamental that you got wrong with your headcanon. Consider how dead certain you were that it wouldn't be the case. Examine your damn beliefs.
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I mean I was literally also about to edit my post with more ideas, like "Oh hey, also the True Name of a Witch and a Magical Girl are different."

But yea, sorry for taking Premises A and B and postulating Conclusion C and not being interested in speculating about unforeseeable Word of God fanon when I wasn't particularly interested in testing if Homura can loop with people anyway? It's not like the shoe's never been on the other foot, Godwinson, chill.

@Evilness24 Yea, but Mami seems to primarily just get gemsploded instead of Witched out, judging by extracanonical materials and Homura's own commentary on her fragility.
 
Evilness42 said:
I say we should extract the power of the past lives and empower the current souls with it. Fuel the fires of progress with lives!
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What!? No! Fuck, no!

Those Seeds are still people- still Sabrina's friends- even if they're from alternate timelines and wallowing in physical despair. They deserve to be revived just as much as any other witch.
 
Hmmmmm.

@Godwinson 's right that this should make us reconsider core beliefs.

The one I'm looking most askance at right now is the assumption that witches and magical girls are the same entity.

The main points that have supported this interpretation up till now are:
• Witches follow the thematic themes and beliefs of their originating magical girl incredibly closely.
• Witches have acted on the beliefs and desires of their originating magical girls on many occasions - Kirika, Kazumi, Hinata, etc.
• Sayaka speaks of having personally experienced Octavia's suffering in Rebellion.
• Homucifer, who is clearly Homura, is born from the witch Homulily.

I'm... not sure what it would even mean for witches to not be the magical girl that created them. It massively shifts the metaphor of witching out as depression, for one thing.

Still, there is some potentially interesting PMAS exclusive evidence supporting the idea of the two as separate, beyond Homura being able to bring forth a duplicate soul: Namely, that duplicate witches already exist.

We've encountered enough witches by now that at least some of them should have been "familiar-norm", instead of "first-generation".

And yet, we haven't seen any distinguishing marks to differentiate familiar-born witches from ones spawned by magical girls succumbing to despair. Ergo, familiars have been putting together a perfect replica of existing witches.

I've explained this away in the past by saying that maybe the familiars are just "patching together" a close enough soul out of many mundane souls, that the ideal of that magical girl's soul can manifest through the facsimile.

And, sure, maaaybe that's the case - you could even attribute the duplicate Grief Seeds that Homura creates to whatever metaphysical process makes duplicate Grief Seeds possible in general.

But I think that we need to consider the possibility that maybe a witch isn't the same thing as the original magical girl. In which case, dewitching isn't possible. The best we could do is the PMKM thing, where we create a new person from the ashes of the old.
 
AuraTwilight said:
@Evilness24 Yea, but Mami seems to primarily just get gemsploded instead of Witched out, judging by extracanonical materials and Homura's own commentary on her fragility.
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This makes sense, considering her suicidal intentions in the canon episode as well. Either way, though, I would judge her instability to be more prone to causing a grief spiral in the first place and thus more likely to have more witchouts overall, as opposed to Kyoko being capable of taking the bombs in stride.

AuraTwilight said:
Or, um... don't be sarcastic on a text medium? It's kind of ableist.
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What does this even mean? Abelism is defined as 'discriminating in favour of the able-bodied,' so far as I know. Do you define 'the incapacity to recognise sarcasm' as a disability that some people possess, and my use of a conventional communication technique as somehow discriminating against them? Something I wrote was misinterpreted, and I provided a correction.
 
Godwinson said:
You mean everything you assume about her time travel. Amazing how you're all in favor of pointless bullshit "science" that amounts to little more than worthless masturbation over bigatons, but when it comes to actually gathering evidence to disprove a theory, whoa, look out, suddenly we're worried about anything else.
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Godwinson said:
Or maybe it's something more fundamental that you got wrong with your headcanon. Consider how dead certain you were that it wouldn't be the case. Examine your damn beliefs.
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Ease off on the aggression.
 
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